verdantgreen
Mongoose
Yeah, like "Battle Crab?" wtf?
However, I like Da Boss's suggested stat line changes.
However, I like Da Boss's suggested stat line changes.
Shadow Fighters - Just why
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
I like them too. Fitting fighters for the devastating Shadow fleets.
Okay, explanation time - I warn you, you may not agree with what I am about to say, but this is why Shadow Fighters are as they are. . .
First off, a decision was made early in the CTA design process (way before 2e) that not all fleets would be the same. Sounds obvious, but we wanted to avoid the SFB thing of when one fleet got a Missile Dreadnought (say), then every fleet would get a Missile Dreadnought. We felt that in order to be distinct, what _didn't_ go into each fleet list would be just as important as what did.
That's the first part. This is the reason, for example, that Vorlons do not have a Carrier. Lots of other fleets have carriers, so _not_ having one sets a fleet apart (same thing with the Drakh, though in a different way).
The decision was also made in 1e, and re-made in 2e, that being about as otherworldly as they are, the First Ones would not 'do' fighters. They had fighter-like craft, clearly, but the likes of Vorlons and Shadows would not consider them in the same way as other races did. There are no Hot Jock Vorlon Aces, for example. It is just not in them to fight in that way (indeed, we have always presumed that Vorlon fighters, in the very least, are drones rather than crewed by an actual Vorlon - whether that means they only have part of the essence of a Vorlon or are remotely controlled is immaterial, for this discussion).
So, First Ones do not do fighters per se. A million years ago, before all these upstart younger races came about, there was no such thing as dogfighting. The smaller craft, what the younger races would come to term 'fighters' were used for swarming around larger ships and smacking the hell out of them by weight of numbers.
The fleets of the Vorlons and Shadows have not changed for millennia, and so what you see in their lists is exactly how they used to do things way back when.
In short, their fighters are designed to hurt big ships, not dance around space with other fighters. Other races have craft like this, but they back them up with space superiority craft. That idea is as alien to Shadows and Vorlons as fish fingers.
Are they truly bad then? No. You are just trying to use them for something they were never intended to be used for. Let's take a look at the Shadow Fighter (as the Vorlon craft seems to be escaping attention right now).
The Dodge 3+ is not the best in the universe, and is a product of the Shadow fighter's larger size and lack of agility. However, the combination of Shields and Hull 5 ensure it can actually reach the target without getting blown out of the sky. The Hull 5 also gives it some measure of protection against those pesky point defences that have recently (within the past thousand years) come in vogue.
Once a horde of Shadow fighters reach their target, they are unleashing AP and Double Damage attacks - that is a rare enough combination in a fighter, as we toned down a lot of their traits in 2e. Bit you are also getting three of them per flight. Start stacking flights up (such as in the proposed 5 flights/wing in this thread) and you have something that will tear a new one on any major warship - which is exactly what the Shadows intended.
Sure, you are going to have trouble getting Shadow fighters near a target that has flooded space with fighters. This is a built in weakness of the fleet and if you are facing, say, the Gaim or an Earth Admiral who you know loves his Avengers and Poseidons, don't play to his strength and your weakness!
On the other hand, if the enemy fighter cover is light, help yourself and have fun!
As an aside to all of this, consider the Shadowfury. These guys had the same (or similar) technological base as the Shadows when designing their new super-fighter, but look at the differences. To a human mind, a fighter needs to be a dogfighter or, at least, have some capability in that area. So, when they take Shadowtech and apply it to their new design, they get a hot dogfighter out of it.
Yes, the Shadows could have done exactly the same thing. They didn't. It simply did not occur to them. . .
First off, a decision was made early in the CTA design process (way before 2e) that not all fleets would be the same. Sounds obvious, but we wanted to avoid the SFB thing of when one fleet got a Missile Dreadnought (say), then every fleet would get a Missile Dreadnought. We felt that in order to be distinct, what _didn't_ go into each fleet list would be just as important as what did.
That's the first part. This is the reason, for example, that Vorlons do not have a Carrier. Lots of other fleets have carriers, so _not_ having one sets a fleet apart (same thing with the Drakh, though in a different way).
The decision was also made in 1e, and re-made in 2e, that being about as otherworldly as they are, the First Ones would not 'do' fighters. They had fighter-like craft, clearly, but the likes of Vorlons and Shadows would not consider them in the same way as other races did. There are no Hot Jock Vorlon Aces, for example. It is just not in them to fight in that way (indeed, we have always presumed that Vorlon fighters, in the very least, are drones rather than crewed by an actual Vorlon - whether that means they only have part of the essence of a Vorlon or are remotely controlled is immaterial, for this discussion).
So, First Ones do not do fighters per se. A million years ago, before all these upstart younger races came about, there was no such thing as dogfighting. The smaller craft, what the younger races would come to term 'fighters' were used for swarming around larger ships and smacking the hell out of them by weight of numbers.
The fleets of the Vorlons and Shadows have not changed for millennia, and so what you see in their lists is exactly how they used to do things way back when.
In short, their fighters are designed to hurt big ships, not dance around space with other fighters. Other races have craft like this, but they back them up with space superiority craft. That idea is as alien to Shadows and Vorlons as fish fingers.
Are they truly bad then? No. You are just trying to use them for something they were never intended to be used for. Let's take a look at the Shadow Fighter (as the Vorlon craft seems to be escaping attention right now).
The Dodge 3+ is not the best in the universe, and is a product of the Shadow fighter's larger size and lack of agility. However, the combination of Shields and Hull 5 ensure it can actually reach the target without getting blown out of the sky. The Hull 5 also gives it some measure of protection against those pesky point defences that have recently (within the past thousand years) come in vogue.
Once a horde of Shadow fighters reach their target, they are unleashing AP and Double Damage attacks - that is a rare enough combination in a fighter, as we toned down a lot of their traits in 2e. Bit you are also getting three of them per flight. Start stacking flights up (such as in the proposed 5 flights/wing in this thread) and you have something that will tear a new one on any major warship - which is exactly what the Shadows intended.
Sure, you are going to have trouble getting Shadow fighters near a target that has flooded space with fighters. This is a built in weakness of the fleet and if you are facing, say, the Gaim or an Earth Admiral who you know loves his Avengers and Poseidons, don't play to his strength and your weakness!
On the other hand, if the enemy fighter cover is light, help yourself and have fun!
As an aside to all of this, consider the Shadowfury. These guys had the same (or similar) technological base as the Shadows when designing their new super-fighter, but look at the differences. To a human mind, a fighter needs to be a dogfighter or, at least, have some capability in that area. So, when they take Shadowtech and apply it to their new design, they get a hot dogfighter out of it.
Yes, the Shadows could have done exactly the same thing. They didn't. It simply did not occur to them. . .
Stonehorse
Mongoose
That does make a lot of sense, but if the Vorlon and shadow ships where made with out fighters in mind and haven't changed much since their initial design, how come the vorlon ships and fighters have advanced anti-fighter?
Cool post, thanks for taking your time ^^.
And it definitely gives us a psychological view on humans ^^. Human players trying to turn a "anti ship drone" into a fighter, justr because of its apparent size class.
Now i guess we need to evaluate it against Frazis, Rivas, Tzymms and other anti ship fighters
On the Anti fighter, i guess that would be called anti drone technology or somesuch. When your thinking with heavy ships in mind, and apply that to the drones (yes i love that word) it makes sense to apply a shipbased weapon even on such a light vessel. Shadow "fighters" are basically tiny meeny Shadow scouts or shadow ships (aka the battle crab). And the total advancedness (is that even a word?) of forst one technology allows them to do that.
And it definitely gives us a psychological view on humans ^^. Human players trying to turn a "anti ship drone" into a fighter, justr because of its apparent size class.
Now i guess we need to evaluate it against Frazis, Rivas, Tzymms and other anti ship fighters
On the Anti fighter, i guess that would be called anti drone technology or somesuch. When your thinking with heavy ships in mind, and apply that to the drones (yes i love that word) it makes sense to apply a shipbased weapon even on such a light vessel. Shadow "fighters" are basically tiny meeny Shadow scouts or shadow ships (aka the battle crab). And the total advancedness (is that even a word?) of forst one technology allows them to do that.
Stonehorse said:
To be honest, I always saw that as a side effect of other technologies, rather than being designed with anti-fighter duties in mind - a bit like the power draining effect of the walker at Sigma 957. It wasn't designed to neutralise other ships (probably), it is just a factor of its power systems.
msprange said:
Hi Probably not.
But hey your game and thanks for taking the time to reply
msprange said:
Ok again fair enough - Although I still contend that in that case a different carrier could be made al al the Drakh
msprange said:
Which is exactly what you don't get with 2 fighters per wing.......
msprange said:
Ok again fair enough as you see them............
msprange said:
Because IMHO the Vorlon fighter is a good change (it has AFF and so does not need to dogfight) and fits nicelyas something different
msprange said:
ER NO, 2 flights per wing - less than the new improved and right Vorlons - not a horde at all. AP double damage is Ok - but a number of its compatriots have similar or better guns and lots of other advantages - Firebolt, White Star fighter, my beloved Rutarians,. If the Shadow fighter had range 4 + guns maybe it would have felt right for the purpose you suggest
msprange said:
so why not give them 5 flights a wing?
msprange said:
Er except for the AF fire - which for instance the Volrons have in spades as AAF - and if following your reason they are designed to fight vorlons - or at least the Minbari whom the great war was fought against a thousand years ago - 50 per cent chance of dying on the attack run before firing?
Well I think best we agree to disagree
i could see them as at most 3 per flight, but then you have to consider all the other fighter numbers too.
3AD AP DD per flight is actually a very good anti-ship fighter and cannot be ignored. plus not everyone has AF trait, and the WS fighter also has to brave AF to get its attacks in so not every anti-ship fighter has long range.
bets thing to do is houserule that shield work against the AF grid, its what i think they should do (but then i also think they should work in dogfights to soak up a hit).
3AD AP DD per flight is actually a very good anti-ship fighter and cannot be ignored. plus not everyone has AF trait, and the WS fighter also has to brave AF to get its attacks in so not every anti-ship fighter has long range.
bets thing to do is houserule that shield work against the AF grid, its what i think they should do (but then i also think they should work in dogfights to soak up a hit).
katadder said:
Again I think we are going to have to disagree beacuse the White Star fighter is NOT a bomber - it is a superb mulitrole fighter bomber capable of dealing with any opposition fighters on at least equal terms and/or attacking ships. However if it goes for other ships it is not as effective as other dedicated bombers as there is a risk element
In contrast the Shadow Fighter is supposed to be a bomber and has reasonable guns for this BUT unlike them it stll has to get in close - look at all the "bombers"- they have range and guns (although some also have good dogfight, stealth, more flights. Antifighter, hull 6, other guns etc) Firebolt (2 AP DD, P, 2 flights), Thorun Torp (1AP DD, 4 flights), Rutarian (2 DD P, 2 flights), Riva (4 AP, 3 flights), Skyserpent 4 AP, 3 flights), Porfatis (1 AP, DD SL, 3 flights)
the Shields rule is a good idea but it would be better to be a "proper" rule
ah well its too good a game to get annoyed about Sulfurdown
Mongoose
When did it become cliche for Human fleets to have such an amazing ability to advance their technology faster then any other race? Wouldn't the ancients be wiped out if they didn't adjust to the current environments?
One reason is for this, I think, is that they are using Shadow Technology - which apparently actually wants to be used and helps the people trying to intergrate into their systems. - at least this is in the stuff I have read about it and thats what I am using in my alt universe
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Not really. They're so far ahead of the others, the younger races can only approach their technological state with First One help. Even the advanced tech of the Minbari is inferior to the First Ones; the White Star was only possible with Vorlon help. Same goes for the EA Shadow-tech units, it was down to Shadow agents that this stuff was created.
White Star fighter has better.msprange said:
Sky Serpent has better.
Rutarian has better.
Riva has better.
Tzymm has better.
I know we're playing B5, not "generic space ship battles", and the fluff is important. Yes racial identity is important, vive la difference and all that. But the fact is, in game terms, Shadow Fighters just suck, and that creates imbalance. For a game, that is bad. Fleets should be balanced, and maintain the game fluff. That is why we have PL's and in the case of fighters, "number per wing". That is why Kothas get 8 per wing, Nials get 2, Frazi get 5, etc - its not a historical representation of how many were really in a standard wing... its an artificial game balance mechanism, for making one wing of one race's fighters approximately equal to one wing on another's. Fluff says that the Abbai have bad fighters... so to make it "fair" on an Abbai player, they get 8 of them. Fluff says that Nials rock, so to make it fair on a Minbari's opponent, they only get 2 per wing. Am I wrong about that or right?!
The White Star Fighter, Rutarian, Sky Serpent and Firebolt are supposedly same class as the Shadow Fighter, the "anti-ship" fighters; yet one flight of any of these is better or equal in every regard to one flight of Shadow fighters. So using the above logic, Shadow Fighters should have more per wing... just like the Kotha has more per wing than the Nial.
I understand the fluff. I understand the Shadows might think in different terms, and not use the same tactics or the same attitudes as other races. But is that a reason to give them fighters which are just so bad in game terms, and not compensate for that by giving them a higher number per wing?
They also have vessals which can spawn these fighters, I believe that may be the reason the Shadow Fighters suck, because you have ships that can just spit them out where they are needed. It can also be considered overall fleet balance, the Shadow Scout is an immensely powerful ship, and if Shadow Fighters were better then they are, then it would be impossibly hard to take the Shadow Scout with fighters, its a racial weakness it seems.
Burger said:
Hmm you said it, I said it, but I don't get the impression its going to make a diffference?
Ah well never mind My shadow fighters will live in my imagination and Darkness Rising
Oh and Zeru - I thik you may be misunderstanding a bit of the Shadow rules on fighter spawning given your other post - now if they had fleet carrier it would work that way.....................
angelus2000
Mongoose
Simple enough solution to the problem. Make it so any Shadow/Vorlon ship can launch X amount of fighter per turn, but loses x amount of Damage points per fighter.
For shadows, it can launch a replacement fighter for 2 points of damage per fighter, up to 20 percent of the remaining damge can be converted into fighters. Ancient shadow ship has 125 base damage I believe, so going by 20 percent remaining damage, it can convert up to 24 points of damage into 12 fighters. Few turns later its down to say 75 remaining damage, so 14 damage points it can convert into 7 fighters.
This way, Shadow ships can have a pretty fair amount of fighters the first turn, but it has to take a certain amount fo damage to do it. Self-repair can make up the damage eventually, it gives the shadows a way to field a large amount of fighters but has a built in limit on how many they can get.
For shadows, it can launch a replacement fighter for 2 points of damage per fighter, up to 20 percent of the remaining damge can be converted into fighters. Ancient shadow ship has 125 base damage I believe, so going by 20 percent remaining damage, it can convert up to 24 points of damage into 12 fighters. Few turns later its down to say 75 remaining damage, so 14 damage points it can convert into 7 fighters.
This way, Shadow ships can have a pretty fair amount of fighters the first turn, but it has to take a certain amount fo damage to do it. Self-repair can make up the damage eventually, it gives the shadows a way to field a large amount of fighters but has a built in limit on how many they can get.
