Refits-Traveller

[tytalan]

So there seems to be some confusion over refits according to HG 2022. Under major refits it says “ Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).” To me that’s pretty clear it costs a lot of time and money but you can change these things how you want. The problem comes under the minor refit category

Under minor refit it says this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.” But it later says this “ Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.” Which should probably be stated elsewhere in the section but it makes this next line confusing by being placed under the minor refit paragraph as is this next line “ Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.”

Now the way I read it under a major refit you can increase the size of the of Jump drive, Manuever drive, Power plant, spinal mounts and Launch facilities because your moving bulkheads and restructuring the inside of the hull literally rebuilding the inside of the ship which makes sense the navy does it from time to time and it fits with the cost and time requirements. While under a minor refit you can only decrease the size of these components because you’re not doing major structural changes. But it’s been argued that you can’t increase the size of these components under and refit major or minor but the Hero class far trader is literally a refit of the Beowulf class free trader with larger jump drive. So which is it?

 

[mavikfelna]

We have been dealing with this rule in my group and our take is a major refit can reorder or enlarge any space so long as there is space, usually the cargo hold, that you can logically take it from.
Doing hull size and armor is a major rebuild and would require a full yard basically tearing down to the frame and rebuilding, which is basically just paying the cost for a new ship.
A minor refit can't put in larger equipment for the reasons you state, you're not moving bulkheads and air-tight compartments. If it's partitions, like between passenger cabins, then you can do what you want.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd consider scrapping the hull, and cannibalize the components.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So there seems to be some confusion over refits according to HG 2022. Under major refits it says “ Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).” To me that’s pretty clear it costs a lot of time and money but you can change these things how you want. The problem comes under the minor refit category

The rules are clear when read on the whole rather than isolated statements. They do need to be edited for clarity.

Under minor refit it says this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.” But it later says this “ Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.” Which should probably be stated elsewhere in the section but it makes this next line confusing by being placed under the minor refit paragraph as is this next line “ Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.”

Summary:
No refit allowed for armour, configuration, integral hull options
Major refit - drives, spinal, launch tubes - may be decreased in size, can not be increased.
Minor refit - other stuff, weapon mounts, staterooms, cargo hold

Now the way I read it under a major refit you can increase the size of the of Jump drive, Manuever drive, Power plant, spinal mounts and Launch facilities because your moving bulkheads and restructuring the inside of the hull literally rebuilding the inside of the ship which makes sense the navy does it from time to time and it fits with the cost and time requirements.

You can't. It specifically states you can not increase their size. personally I would allow it, but that's not what the rules say. I would also allow refitting a higher TL power plant that frees up space to allow the free drive space to now be used for an increase in jump drive and or maneuver drive. Refitting a drive with the reduced sizr option could also free up space to re-allocate. This goes back to the CT main compartment and drive compartment that was dropped decades ago.

While under a minor refit you can only decrease the size of these components because you’re not doing major structural changes. But it’s been argued that you can’t increase the size of these components under and refit major or minor but the Hero class far trader is literally a refit of the Beowulf class free trader with larger jump drive. So which is it?

It is an example of the game authors not using their own rules as written and thus causing inconsistency with their own rules. It happens a lot.

 

[Terry Mixon]

If Mongoose violates their own build rules, that part just became a suggestion rather than a rule.

 

[wintertraveller]

The current rules for retrofitting are rooted in the rules first published in CT Trillion Credit Squadron. I'm glad these rules persist in our 2e rules today.

The specific retrofitting rules were published in the "Campaign" section of TCS for use in the fleet campaigns. It made sense that the factions/empires in those campaigns would not take the time and resources to expand the size of drive footprints (tons) in a retrofitting a ship as too time consuming and or too expensive.

For our adventure class ships that need to be enhanced beyond these fleet-standard rules, I think an individual referee might allow this but label it something other than retrofitting. Make the time and cost to expand the size of a drive more than the standard rules for major retrofitting and focused on a single ship (not a fleet). Perhaps a new optional feature for to "hot-rod" a single ship. I'd suggest taking the existing rules for retrofitting and increasing the cost and time by 1d6x10% for those specific major custom refits.

Perhaps, with this approach there would be an additional class of refits:
- minor refits
- major refits
- hot rod refits (for drives and power plant upgrades that increase tonnage) (only special shipyards will touch this)

 

[Sigtrygg]

The current rules stifle player agency.

They should be scrapped.

If a PC group wants to splash the cash to refit their ship they should be able to do so in any way they want to.

As you say the legacy rules are still binding, they even suggest that main and engineering compartments are a thing even though they are not.

Now compare with the frankenships you could build in TNE...

I photocopied a load of beck plans from CT sources that were scales the same and cut them into sections along bulkhead lines. I then glued them together to make the sort of ships TNE exemplified.

 

[Condottiere]

Usually, you have to gut a battleship, to get to the engines.

Now, I'd say it's dependent on the hull configuration.

 

[tytalan]

For our adventure class ships that need to be enhanced beyond these fleet-standard rules, I think an individual referee might allow this but label it something other than retrofitting. Make the time and cost to expand the size of a drive more than the standard rules for major retrofitting and focused on a single ship (not a fleet). Perhaps a new optional feature for to "hot-rod" a single ship. I'd suggest taking the existing rules for retrofitting and increasing the cost and time by 1d6x10% for those specific major custom refits.

My question is why do we need another category? If you can enlarge the listed systems with a major refit why have a ‘Hot Rod’ refit category? If you cannot enlarge them with a major refit why does it cost so much more in time and credits? Also how would you explain the Hero class far Trader which is a ‘Hot Rodding’ of the Beowulf class free trader?

Major refit cost: Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size

Minor refit cost: Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size

Now I do think that a major refit should only be able to be done at a class A starport instead of the class B starport that now the only requirement for both a minor and major refit.

 

[MongooseMatt]

that part just became a suggestion rather than a rule.

Kind of applies to all the rules

 

[Sigtrygg]

My question is why do we need another category? If you can enlarge the listed systems with a major refit why have a ‘Hot Rod’ refit category?

Because currently the rules as written explicitly forbid increasing the size of the drives, spinal, and launch tubes.

If you cannot enlarge them with a major refit why does it cost so much more in time and credits? Also how would you explain the Hero class far Trader which is a ‘Hot Rodding’ of the Beowulf class free trader?

The authors ignore their own rules, or don't know their own rules.

Major refit cost: Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

The replacement of a TL12 power plant with a TL15 plant means more energy for the same sized drive. The TL advancements may just allow a higher TL jump drive of greater jump number to fit in the same or less space. Same with the m-drive.

Minor refit cost: Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size

Now I do think that a major refit should only be able to be done at a class A starport instead of the class B starport that now the only requirement for both a minor and major refit.

I would scrap the refit rules and redesign the ship upgrade rules for PC ships.

One addendum, how much can you sell the old drives for? I'm sure there would be a market for second hand drives to build budget ships, how about reconditioning the drives before sale.

 

[Condottiere]

Wonder if the new Vehicles allows refits.

And, extensions.

 

[tytalan]

Summary:
No refit allowed for armour, configuration, integral hull options
Major refit - drives, spinal, launch tubes - may be decreased in size, can not be increased.
Minor refit - other stuff, weapon mounts, staterooms, cargo hold

This only read this way if you start a new paragraph changing this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size. Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.”

To this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.” This is literally how you are reading this instead of a single paragraph your making it into two with no justification for this separation.

While it actually makes more sense if you read it like this “Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. “

This is why we need an actual ruling from mongoose.

Also this is how it works in real life a minor refit doesn’t require changes to the structural members of a ship and can often be preformed without putting the ship in drydock, while a major refit does require changes to structural members and must be preformed in drydock. Historically there’s been many cases where engines of a ship have had their size increased and those cases it requires a major refit in a drydock.

 

[Sigtrygg]

This only read this way if you start a new paragraph changing this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.

No. Starting a new sentence with a new clause and everything is all that is needed. It isn't elegant, it could do with editing, but it is clear. read each sentence in isolation and then as a paragraph and you will see.

Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size. Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.”

To this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.” This is literally how you are reading this instead of a single paragraph your making it into two with no justification for this separation.

The full stop and new sentence are enough reason. You are trying to find a grammatical fallacy where there is none.

I agree that it would be better had the paragraphs been edited better but hey ho. The fact remains we are told what a major refit can change, we are then told what a minor refit can change, and we are told we can not change hull configuration or armour at all.

While it actually makes more sense if you read it like this “Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms. Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size. Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced. Other components can be increased in size if there is tonnage available. If several systems or components are being removed or replaced in a single refit, all replacements are made simultaneously; therefore, it only takes the time required for the longest job to be completed.

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit. “

This is why we need an actual ruling from mongoose.

Also this is how it works in real life a minor refit doesn’t require changes to the structural members of a ship and can often be preformed without putting the ship in drydock, while a major refit does require changes to structural members and must be preformed in drydock. Historically there’s been many cases where engines of a ship have had their size increased and those cases it requires a major refit in a drydock.

I agree, the refit rules need a complete re-write.

 

[MasterGwydion]

No. Starting a new sentence with a new clause and everything is all that is needed. It isn't elegant, it could do with editing, but it is clear. read each sentence in isolation and then as a paragraph and you will see.

The full stop and new sentence are enough reason. You are trying to find a grammatical fallacy where there is none.

I agree that it would be better had the paragraphs been edited better but hey ho. The fact remains we are told what a major refit can change, we are then told what a minor refit can change, and we are told we can not change hull configuration or armour at all.

I agree, the refit rules need a complete re-write.

I don't use the refit rules at all. The rules for removing old components isn't bad, but they rest of it is stupid. If I want to renovate a stateroom, it apparently takes 10% of the total time to build the ship. If I want to renovate every stateroom on the ship it still take 10% of the time required to build the whole ship. Someone didn't think that through and that is only one of the problems with the refit rules. So a liner with 100 staterooms takes 39 months to build (I grabbed this number out of thin air, so it is not tied to anything), and I want to change a 4-ton stateroom into 2-2ton staterooms, that takes 3.9 months. If I want to replace all 100 staterooms, it still takes 3.9 months.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It appears to be an outdated legacy holdover from when hulls were built with a drive compartment, a main compartment, and you couldn't change either once built. Only drives in the engineering compartment, everything else in the main...

HG/TCS then introduced refitting warships, and despite not having the LBB:2 distinction still restricts drive upgrades.

Then cam e TNE and you can weld ships together along bulkheads... so the refit rule is no longer fit for purpose.

And as I said upthread, the Mongoose Traveller adoption of this rules stifles player agency rather than promote it.

I hope it disappears officially, but it is no longer part of my gametable rules.

 

[tytalan]

No. Starting a new sentence with a new clause and everything is all that is needed. It isn't elegant, it could do with editing, but it is clear. read each sentence in isolation and then as a paragraph and you will see.

The full stop and new sentence are enough reason. You are trying to find a grammatical fallacy where there is none.

I agree that it would be better had the paragraphs been edited better but hey ho. The fact remains we are told what a major refit can change, we are then told what a minor refit can change, and we are told we can not change hull configuration or armour at all.

I agree, the refit rules need a complete re-write.

We know your opinion Sigtrygg and we know you think that yours is the only way to interpret any of the Traveller rules and that you are the expert but I disagree with your interpretation and you have yet to back up your argument with anything other than ‘I’m the only one that can read syntax right’ your not but you keep yelling at the rest of us that you are which is why I want Matt to look over the rules and talk to the others and give us a ruling with a reasonable explanation.

 

[tytalan]

Paragraphs vs sentences
A sentence is the basic unit of thought containing a subject and a verb, while a paragraph is a group of related sentences that develop a single main idea, often signaled by a topic sentence. Sentences provide the individual "bricks," but paragraphs are the organized "walls" of writing, providing structure, flow, and clarity by grouping these sentences to express a more comprehensive concept.
Sentences: The Building Blocks
Definition: A sentence expresses a complete thought and contains at least one independent clause (a subject and a verb).
Purpose: Sentences convey specific, singular pieces of information, examples, or actions.
Example: "The cat sat on the mat" is a simple sentence.
Paragraphs: The Organized Idea
Definition:
A paragraph is a collection of sentences that are all organized around one central idea.
Components:
Topic Sentence: Introduces the main idea or theme of the paragraph.
Supporting Sentences: Provide details, examples, facts, or explanations to develop the topic sentence.
Concluding Sentence (Optional): Summarizes the main idea or transitions to the next topic.
Purpose:
Paragraphs organize writing into logical units, helping readers follow the writer's train of thought and understanding larger concepts.
Structure:
Paragraphs are visually marked by a new line, indentation, or a skipped line between them, distinguishing them from the preceding text.
Key Differences Summarized
Scope:
A sentence presents a single thought, whereas a paragraph presents a developed, single idea comprised of multiple sentences.
Structure:
A sentence has a grammatical structure; a paragraph is a structural organization of several sentences to form a coherent unit.
Function:
Sentences are the raw material of writing, while paragraphs are the organized framework that allows for deeper development and comprehension of complex topics.

 

[Sigtrygg]

We know your opinion Sigtrygg and we know you think that yours is the only way to interpret any of the Traveller rules and that you are the expert but I disagree with your interpretation and you have yet to back up your argument with anything other than ‘I’m the only one that can read syntax right’ your not but you keep yelling at the rest of us that you are which is why I want Matt to look over the rules and talk to the others and give us a ruling with a reasonable explanation.

You need actual help in understanding the nature of polite communication. I have not used caps, so no shouting. I do not claim to be a font of all knowledge for Mongoose Traveller, for previous canon I would consider myself pretty well read.
What I can do is read the rules and give my opinion. As to the rules, they are in need of an edit but they are clear in intent, want me to explain them to you again?

Armour/hull - no changes allowed
Major - drives, spinal and launch facilities only, may be reduced in size but can not be increased
Minor - cargo, staterooms, other stuff, refit away.

notice I am not yelling...

 

[Condottiere]

With foresight, you modularize everything that can be modularized.