Refits-Traveller

[tytalan]

So there seems to be some confusion over refits according to HG 2022. Under major refits it says “ Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).” To me that’s pretty clear it costs a lot of time and money but you can change these things how you want. The problem comes under the minor refit category

Under minor refit it says this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.” But it later says this “ Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.” Which should probably be stated elsewhere in the section but it makes this next line confusing by being placed under the minor refit paragraph as is this next line “ Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.”

Now the way I read it under a major refit you can increase the size of the of Jump drive, Manuever drive, Power plant, spinal mounts and Launch facilities because your moving bulkheads and restructuring the inside of the hull literally rebuilding the inside of the ship which makes sense the navy does it from time to time and it fits with the cost and time requirements. While under a minor refit you can only decrease the size of these components because you’re not doing major structural changes. But it’s been argued that you can’t increase the size of these components under and refit major or minor but the Hero class far trader is literally a refit of the Beowulf class free trader with larger jump drive. So which is it?

 

[mavikfelna]

We have been dealing with this rule in my group and our take is a major refit can reorder or enlarge any space so long as there is space, usually the cargo hold, that you can logically take it from.
Doing hull size and armor is a major rebuild and would require a full yard basically tearing down to the frame and rebuilding, which is basically just paying the cost for a new ship.
A minor refit can't put in larger equipment for the reasons you state, you're not moving bulkheads and air-tight compartments. If it's partitions, like between passenger cabins, then you can do what you want.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd consider scrapping the hull, and cannibalize the components.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So there seems to be some confusion over refits according to HG 2022. Under major refits it says “ Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).” To me that’s pretty clear it costs a lot of time and money but you can change these things how you want. The problem comes under the minor refit category

The rules are clear when read on the whole rather than isolated statements. They do need to be edited for clarity.

Under minor refit it says this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.” But it later says this “ Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.” Which should probably be stated elsewhere in the section but it makes this next line confusing by being placed under the minor refit paragraph as is this next line “ Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.”

Summary:
No refit allowed for armour, configuration, integral hull options
Major refit - drives, spinal, launch tubes - may be decreased in size, can not be increased.
Minor refit - other stuff, weapon mounts, staterooms, cargo hold

Now the way I read it under a major refit you can increase the size of the of Jump drive, Manuever drive, Power plant, spinal mounts and Launch facilities because your moving bulkheads and restructuring the inside of the hull literally rebuilding the inside of the ship which makes sense the navy does it from time to time and it fits with the cost and time requirements.

You can't. It specifically states you can not increase their size. personally I would allow it, but that's not what the rules say. I would also allow refitting a higher TL power plant that frees up space to allow the free drive space to now be used for an increase in jump drive and or maneuver drive. Refitting a drive with the reduced sizr option could also free up space to re-allocate. This goes back to the CT main compartment and drive compartment that was dropped decades ago.

While under a minor refit you can only decrease the size of these components because you’re not doing major structural changes. But it’s been argued that you can’t increase the size of these components under and refit major or minor but the Hero class far trader is literally a refit of the Beowulf class free trader with larger jump drive. So which is it?

It is an example of the game authors not using their own rules as written and thus causing inconsistency with their own rules. It happens a lot.

 

[Terry Mixon]

If Mongoose violates their own build rules, that part just became a suggestion rather than a rule.

 

[wintertraveller]

The current rules for retrofitting are rooted in the rules first published in CT Trillion Credit Squadron. I'm glad these rules persist in our 2e rules today.

The specific retrofitting rules were published in the "Campaign" section of TCS for use in the fleet campaigns. It made sense that the factions/empires in those campaigns would not take the time and resources to expand the size of drive footprints (tons) in a retrofitting a ship as too time consuming and or too expensive.

For our adventure class ships that need to be enhanced beyond these fleet-standard rules, I think an individual referee might allow this but label it something other than retrofitting. Make the time and cost to expand the size of a drive more than the standard rules for major retrofitting and focused on a single ship (not a fleet). Perhaps a new optional feature for to "hot-rod" a single ship. I'd suggest taking the existing rules for retrofitting and increasing the cost and time by 1d6x10% for those specific major custom refits.

Perhaps, with this approach there would be an additional class of refits:
- minor refits
- major refits
- hot rod refits (for drives and power plant upgrades that increase tonnage) (only special shipyards will touch this)

 

[Sigtrygg]

The current rules stifle player agency.

They should be scrapped.

If a PC group wants to splash the cash to refit their ship they should be able to do so in any way they want to.

As you say the legacy rules are still binding, they even suggest that main and engineering compartments are a thing even though they are not.

Now compare with the frankenships you could build in TNE...

I photocopied a load of beck plans from CT sources that were scales the same and cut them into sections along bulkhead lines. I then glued them together to make the sort of ships TNE exemplified.

 

[Condottiere]

Usually, you have to gut a battleship, to get to the engines.

Now, I'd say it's dependent on the hull configuration.

 

[tytalan]

For our adventure class ships that need to be enhanced beyond these fleet-standard rules, I think an individual referee might allow this but label it something other than retrofitting. Make the time and cost to expand the size of a drive more than the standard rules for major retrofitting and focused on a single ship (not a fleet). Perhaps a new optional feature for to "hot-rod" a single ship. I'd suggest taking the existing rules for retrofitting and increasing the cost and time by 1d6x10% for those specific major custom refits.

My question is why do we need another category? If you can enlarge the listed systems with a major refit why have a ‘Hot Rod’ refit category? If you cannot enlarge them with a major refit why does it cost so much more in time and credits? Also how would you explain the Hero class far Trader which is a ‘Hot Rodding’ of the Beowulf class free trader?

Major refit cost: Removing these components costs 0.5 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and then installing new ones costs 1.5 times the cost of the new system. The time this takes is one quarter of the time required to build a new ship of the same size

Minor refit cost: Removing these components costs 0.1 times the cost of the original system, while removing them and installing new ones costs 1.1 times the cost of the new system. This takes one tenth of the time required to build a new ship of the same size

Now I do think that a major refit should only be able to be done at a class A starport instead of the class B starport that now the only requirement for both a minor and major refit.