Question about Picts
- Thread starter MadDog
- Start date
While I don't disagree with that at all, I also think there is a certain charm in knowing that the GM is playing "by the book". It just adds excitement to know that what transpires hasn't been scripted in advance, and is very much dependent on my characters actions and abilities.Greymane said:
It can be very frustrating as a player when you get the feeling that it doesn't really matter what you do, because the GM has the whole scene planned ("you are going to be ambushed by picts, and there ain't nothing you can do about it"). Likewise, it can really suck when you know that your character is never in any real danger because the GM will always find a way to save him when things go wrong (I've been in plenty of games like that).
That being said, its of course bad if the GMs following the rules leads to weird or uncool things (such as picts never being able to successfully ambush intruders in their land), but I can totally understand where MadDog is coming from when he says he doesn't like fudging stuff to often.
For me, I think the ultimate end result would be a fine-tuned blend of "dramatic editing" and "letting the dice fall as they may".
Korppis said:They don't need to know if you break the rules
As a GM i usually roll spot and listen checks for player characters myself, so that my players won't know the actual results. This is to prevent my players to know if there isn't anything to spot/hear or if they just failed their rolls.
And yes, i think that now and then it is ok to break the rules if that would help the atmosphere in a campaign.
Be very careful with this. The way I see it, it is not about the DM being bound by the rules, it is about players making informed decisions. The players have to make some very critical decisions in-game and those decisions are informed by their expectations of how the world works. Pull the rug out from underneath them and not only are their choices invalidated but, at worst, they wind up with a result they never would have chosen had the laws of reality not taken a holiday.
Don't get me wrong. I roll behind a DM screen and have been known to engage in all sorts of secret fudging from time to time. But these things work best when you do them so rarely tht the players can't predict when a moment of DM fiat is upon them.
Barring some exceptional circumstances, you can't take 20 on an opposed roll such as Hide.MadDog said:
To be perfectly honest, you also shouldn't be able to take 10 on an opposed roll either, I wouldn't let a player do this, but for the sake of playability (rolling 30 hide checks is not my idea of fun) this is one of those fudges I'm willing to make.
Later.
Greymane
Mongoose
I couldn't agree more... this goes without saying, but the GM needs to approach each scene he/she has created with the attitude of an Improv performer - be prepared for anything.
Well said. Couldn't agree more.
As the origin of this thread was the concern over the Picts not being able to do well against a well armored party, and has sort of tangeted off into GM playstyles... has the information here been helpful?
Looking back on the posts I get a whirlwind of ideas for how to set up some nice scenes for my player's to deal with...
Fair enough... what would you consider to be a "realistic" set of conditions?
"Realistic" in a sense that the mere existence of the player is not enough in and of itself to disrupt the status quo.
For example, I used the Conan sourcebook to set the size of the random encounters; about 10 Picts max for a hunting/raiding party, and ~30 Picts max for a war party. Since this is typical, the numbers wont change just because the players happen to be in the area. If there is a _reason_ for the Picts to increase the size of a war party, then it should change. If the Picts know there are some pretty bad-ass Pict slayers out there, they would either decrease the numbers of hunting/raiding/war parties and increase the numbers of Picts in each party. Or, if they learn enough about the players (where they patrol) then they might assemble a "hit team" to hunt for the players. The Picts can only respond to the information they have.
Another way to put this philospohy is to note one of my pet peeves - random encounter tables that are PC level dependant. Random encounters should be just that - random. There is no logical relationship between random encounters and the level of a player.
Thats just my semi-coherent philosophy.
Mad Dog
"Realistic" in a sense that the mere existence of the player is not enough in and of itself to disrupt the status quo.
For example, I used the Conan sourcebook to set the size of the random encounters; about 10 Picts max for a hunting/raiding party, and ~30 Picts max for a war party. Since this is typical, the numbers wont change just because the players happen to be in the area. If there is a _reason_ for the Picts to increase the size of a war party, then it should change. If the Picts know there are some pretty bad-ass Pict slayers out there, they would either decrease the numbers of hunting/raiding/war parties and increase the numbers of Picts in each party. Or, if they learn enough about the players (where they patrol) then they might assemble a "hit team" to hunt for the players. The Picts can only respond to the information they have.
Another way to put this philospohy is to note one of my pet peeves - random encounter tables that are PC level dependant. Random encounters should be just that - random. There is no logical relationship between random encounters and the level of a player.
Thats just my semi-coherent philosophy.
Mad Dog
That being said, its of course bad if the GMs following the rules leads to weird or uncool things (such as picts never being able to successfully ambush intruders in their land), but I can totally understand where MadDog is coming from when he says he doesn't like fudging stuff to often.
Part of the problem was I havnt been using the Picts most correctly. A few tweaks to how they operate and instituting a few logical corrections should dothe trick:
1) Institute a "The Forest Has Eyes" rule, where pictish territory gets a default Spot skill that increases with time; representing small bands or individual Pict scouts guarding the territory
2) Use the finesse attack more for the hatchet attacks
3) Operate the Pictish groups as having scouts in front of the main body
4) Slightly alter the Pict racial description to remove armor proficiency (no way they could learn armor proficiency) and give them a +1 or +2 natural dodge bonus to represent living in a dangerous envirnoment with no use of armor.
5) Increase the level tier structure the Picts have from 10:1 to 5:1 or so.
Mad Dog
Part of the problem was I havnt been using the Picts most correctly. A few tweaks to how they operate and instituting a few logical corrections should dothe trick:
1) Institute a "The Forest Has Eyes" rule, where pictish territory gets a default Spot skill that increases with time; representing small bands or individual Pict scouts guarding the territory
2) Use the finesse attack more for the hatchet attacks
3) Operate the Pictish groups as having scouts in front of the main body
4) Slightly alter the Pict racial description to remove armor proficiency (no way they could learn armor proficiency) and give them a +1 or +2 natural dodge bonus to represent living in a dangerous envirnoment with no use of armor.
5) Increase the level tier structure the Picts have from 10:1 to 5:1 or so.
Mad Dog
I'd say that "realism" is considerably less important than "internal consistency".
I agree completely.
Barring some exceptional circumstances, you can't take 20 on an opposed roll such as Hide.
You can take 20 with hide if there is no enemy around to Spot you. They Took 20 to Hide some time before the caravan rolled into view. I am pretty sure that is legal.
Mad Dog
I agree completely.
Barring some exceptional circumstances, you can't take 20 on an opposed roll such as Hide.
You can take 20 with hide if there is no enemy around to Spot you. They Took 20 to Hide some time before the caravan rolled into view. I am pretty sure that is legal.
Mad Dog
Heh, this has turned interesting. Like all good things in life this sort of argument is a double-edged one. For example within my own little RP haven there are two primary good GMs. Myself and my mate Phil. Phil is the casual GMer, where he'll not prepare anything prior to a session and make it all up in his head. The players have optimul control as they're not on any set path that they haven't set themselves. I am the opposite. I plan grand sweeping epic yarns where my players occupy key roles, but yeah, certains things WILL happen regardless of the players. The same applies for say pre-genned Adventures. Certain rules are in place that almost force the players hand. But they have to be done this way otherwise each adventure would be 100 pages long just to accomodate all the possibilities.
Theres problems to both sides. For example in Phils style of play the players may have freedom, but they lack a larger drama. Plus Phil isn't responsible for the problems they get themselves in. "What the hell, how did we all die??", one such gamer asked. Phil responded "you charged headlong into a barracks of Stormtroopers". "Why didn't you warn us???!". "Because the choices of your characters are not made by me". This sort of style of GMing works well when the players want a bit of autonomy, like when they want to set up a base of operations, become pirates or smugglers or whatever.
The more narrative style does hinder them slightly in other ways but can be equally beneficial. Ultimately though I think it requires a fine balance of the two for a game to be truly good.
Theres problems to both sides. For example in Phils style of play the players may have freedom, but they lack a larger drama. Plus Phil isn't responsible for the problems they get themselves in. "What the hell, how did we all die??", one such gamer asked. Phil responded "you charged headlong into a barracks of Stormtroopers". "Why didn't you warn us???!". "Because the choices of your characters are not made by me". This sort of style of GMing works well when the players want a bit of autonomy, like when they want to set up a base of operations, become pirates or smugglers or whatever.
The more narrative style does hinder them slightly in other ways but can be equally beneficial. Ultimately though I think it requires a fine balance of the two for a game to be truly good.
I figure something like this: (May Mitra help any of my players that are reading this....)
The Forest Has Eyes: In order to survive, the Picts are constantly hunting in the forest. Furthermore, the constant conflict between Picts of different tribes and villages means that at just about any time, there are a large numbers of Picts scattered through the wilderness. These might be hunting parties, raiding parties, war parties, or even individual scouts guarding the borders of a tribe's territory. The net effect of this is that all Pictish territory, even areas with no set encounters, are given a default Spot roll to detect intruders ("Forest Spot"). In a sense, the forest has eyes of its own. The more time a group spends in Pictish territory, the larger the Forest Spot roll. When a group enters Pictish territory, the Forest Spot value starts at 1. For every 6 hours the players spend in Pictish territory, the Forest Spot value increases by 1. The maximum value of the Forest Spot is dependant on how close the players are to centers of Pictish population. For example, if the players are venturing into areas that are only sparsely populated by the Picts, the maximum Forest Spot might be only 5. If they venture close to a large Pictish village, the maximum Forest Spot might be a 15.
The Forest Spot value is compared against the average of all the players Hide skills (round down). If the players are taking time to use stealth, they can roll a D20 and add the averaged Hide value. If they are moving normally, they only have the averaged Hide value.
Once the Forest Spot value equals or exceeds the result of the players Hide value, the players presence are now known to the Picts.
Mad Dog
The Forest Has Eyes: In order to survive, the Picts are constantly hunting in the forest. Furthermore, the constant conflict between Picts of different tribes and villages means that at just about any time, there are a large numbers of Picts scattered through the wilderness. These might be hunting parties, raiding parties, war parties, or even individual scouts guarding the borders of a tribe's territory. The net effect of this is that all Pictish territory, even areas with no set encounters, are given a default Spot roll to detect intruders ("Forest Spot"). In a sense, the forest has eyes of its own. The more time a group spends in Pictish territory, the larger the Forest Spot roll. When a group enters Pictish territory, the Forest Spot value starts at 1. For every 6 hours the players spend in Pictish territory, the Forest Spot value increases by 1. The maximum value of the Forest Spot is dependant on how close the players are to centers of Pictish population. For example, if the players are venturing into areas that are only sparsely populated by the Picts, the maximum Forest Spot might be only 5. If they venture close to a large Pictish village, the maximum Forest Spot might be a 15.
The Forest Spot value is compared against the average of all the players Hide skills (round down). If the players are taking time to use stealth, they can roll a D20 and add the averaged Hide value. If they are moving normally, they only have the averaged Hide value.
Once the Forest Spot value equals or exceeds the result of the players Hide value, the players presence are now known to the Picts.
Mad Dog
Mad Dog that is an awesome method for giving the slight edge the Picts need to make them more fearsome to the players!
I salute you, sir!
Mind if I swipe that for myself?
Thanks to all for making this an awesome post... wonderful exchange going on here.
Swipe to your hearts content.
I am starting to have vague notions of submitting the whole adeventure once its done. Hmmmm......
Mad Dog
I salute you, sir!
Mind if I swipe that for myself?
Thanks to all for making this an awesome post... wonderful exchange going on here.
Swipe to your hearts content.
I am starting to have vague notions of submitting the whole adeventure once its done. Hmmmm......
Mad Dog
None of the Augusta players should be reading this:
They Know You Are Here: At some point, the presence of the players will become known to the Picts by failing to Hide against the Forest Spot. The Picts will then start to mount a response to the invaders. First, areas near Pictish villages will come alive with the sounds of drums used to communicate the fact intruders are present. Then the Picts will generally assemble twice as many warriors as there are people in the group. This number will be increased if the intruders are known to be powerful or dangerous. The composition of the Pictish group is as follows:
Number of Picts / 5 = Brb-2 (round nearest)
Number of Picts / 25 = Brb-3 (round nearest)
Number of Picts / 125 = Brb-4 (round nearest)
Remainder = Brb-1
plus 1 x leader = highest other Pict level +1 (Brb)
If the group is known to be powerful (known to have killed at least 50 fighting Picts), the number of Picts equals three times the number of intruders and add +1 to the level of each Pict, but then double the response time (see below).
If the group is known to be very powerful (known to have killed at least 100 fighting Picts), the number of Picts equals four times the number of intruders and add +2 to the level of each Pict, but then triple the response time (see below).
The time in hours required for the Picts to assemble the response is equal to:
Time in hours = Total number of Picts / 2
Once the Picts are assembled they will travel to the location of the intruders, assuming the intruders are still in or within 10 miles of Pictish territory. The group will wait to strike until the intruders are resting, eating, etc. If the Picts in questions are Panther tribe, they will wait until dark to strike, relying on the Eyes of the Cat feat to give them the advantage.
During the attack, the Picts will stealthily hit and run unless it looks obvious they can overpower the intruders. During the attack the Picts will have the benefit of Drums of War (+1 to hit and damage and +1 vs Fear effects).
There is one more special case, but I want to keep it a secret. I wont post it, but if you want it, email me.
Mad Dog
They Know You Are Here: At some point, the presence of the players will become known to the Picts by failing to Hide against the Forest Spot. The Picts will then start to mount a response to the invaders. First, areas near Pictish villages will come alive with the sounds of drums used to communicate the fact intruders are present. Then the Picts will generally assemble twice as many warriors as there are people in the group. This number will be increased if the intruders are known to be powerful or dangerous. The composition of the Pictish group is as follows:
Number of Picts / 5 = Brb-2 (round nearest)
Number of Picts / 25 = Brb-3 (round nearest)
Number of Picts / 125 = Brb-4 (round nearest)
Remainder = Brb-1
plus 1 x leader = highest other Pict level +1 (Brb)
If the group is known to be powerful (known to have killed at least 50 fighting Picts), the number of Picts equals three times the number of intruders and add +1 to the level of each Pict, but then double the response time (see below).
If the group is known to be very powerful (known to have killed at least 100 fighting Picts), the number of Picts equals four times the number of intruders and add +2 to the level of each Pict, but then triple the response time (see below).
The time in hours required for the Picts to assemble the response is equal to:
Time in hours = Total number of Picts / 2
Once the Picts are assembled they will travel to the location of the intruders, assuming the intruders are still in or within 10 miles of Pictish territory. The group will wait to strike until the intruders are resting, eating, etc. If the Picts in questions are Panther tribe, they will wait until dark to strike, relying on the Eyes of the Cat feat to give them the advantage.
During the attack, the Picts will stealthily hit and run unless it looks obvious they can overpower the intruders. During the attack the Picts will have the benefit of Drums of War (+1 to hit and damage and +1 vs Fear effects).
There is one more special case, but I want to keep it a secret. I wont post it, but if you want it, email me.
Mad Dog
What should the level tier structure look like for the pictish wilderness ?
Originally I had it as a 5:1 ratio. For every 5 level-1 picts, there would be 1 level 2 pict. For every level-2 picts, there would be 1 level-3 pict. so on and so on....
However after some thought, that is way too harsh. This means there would have to be 9.54E+13 picts (5^20) to have a single level 20 guy available.
I was thinking of cutting it to a 3:1 or a 2:1 tier. What do other people use ?
Mad Dog
Originally I had it as a 5:1 ratio. For every 5 level-1 picts, there would be 1 level 2 pict. For every level-2 picts, there would be 1 level-3 pict. so on and so on....
However after some thought, that is way too harsh. This means there would have to be 9.54E+13 picts (5^20) to have a single level 20 guy available.
I was thinking of cutting it to a 3:1 or a 2:1 tier. What do other people use ?
Mad Dog
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
I tend to presume women and children are 1st level. Anyone sent out hunting will be 4th level or higher. Leaders of the parties (scouting or hunting) are 5th or 6th level or higher.
Constant tribal raiding and feuding means barbarian cultures will have higher level characters than more passive, civilised cultures.
I cannot believe how much analysis you are putting into this. Wow. I just send a party of Picts of a level I think will be challenging, appropriate for the area and/or fun.
I doubt Conan would run from a handful of first level Picts as he did in the Black Stranger, so I figure most scouting, hunting and/or war parties will be done by accomplished hands.
Constant tribal raiding and feuding means barbarian cultures will have higher level characters than more passive, civilised cultures.
I cannot believe how much analysis you are putting into this. Wow. I just send a party of Picts of a level I think will be challenging, appropriate for the area and/or fun.
I doubt Conan would run from a handful of first level Picts as he did in the Black Stranger, so I figure most scouting, hunting and/or war parties will be done by accomplished hands.
I tend to presume women and children are 1st level. Anyone sent out hunting will be 4th level or higher. Leaders of the parties (scouting or hunting) are 5th or 6th level or higher.
If the lower level types only stay at home instead of hunting, how do they get experience ? If they dont hunt, raid, or war, what do they do with all those bored 1-3rd level picts sitting at home ? Twister ?
Constant tribal raiding and feuding means barbarian cultures will have higher level characters than more passive, civilised cultures.
Thats why I figure I should drop the tier ratio to 3:1 or even 2:1.
I cannot believe how much analysis you are putting into this. Wow. I just send a party of Picts of a level I think will be challenging, appropriate for the area and/or fun.
Its just the way I like to operate. Set a reasonable, "logical" system at equilibrium, and see what the players do. I cant just drop 20, 4th level Picts on the players for no reason - there arent going to be that many 4th level picts floating around waiting for the characters. If the picts have a good reason to drop 20, 4th level picts on the players, then so be it. I try really hard to decouple player level with encounters mandated to be tied to the players levels. I figure a system set up properly will respond appropriately to the actions of the players no matter what level they are.
...and people call me anal-retetnive...I wonder why.
I doubt Conan would run from a handful of first level Picts as he did in the Black Stranger, so I figure most scouting, hunting and/or war parties will be done by accomplished hands.
In Conan, you can be one critical hit from death no matter what level you are.
Mad Dog
If the lower level types only stay at home instead of hunting, how do they get experience ? If they dont hunt, raid, or war, what do they do with all those bored 1-3rd level picts sitting at home ? Twister ?
Constant tribal raiding and feuding means barbarian cultures will have higher level characters than more passive, civilised cultures.
Thats why I figure I should drop the tier ratio to 3:1 or even 2:1.
I cannot believe how much analysis you are putting into this. Wow. I just send a party of Picts of a level I think will be challenging, appropriate for the area and/or fun.
Its just the way I like to operate. Set a reasonable, "logical" system at equilibrium, and see what the players do. I cant just drop 20, 4th level Picts on the players for no reason - there arent going to be that many 4th level picts floating around waiting for the characters. If the picts have a good reason to drop 20, 4th level picts on the players, then so be it. I try really hard to decouple player level with encounters mandated to be tied to the players levels. I figure a system set up properly will respond appropriately to the actions of the players no matter what level they are.
...and people call me anal-retetnive...I wonder why.
I doubt Conan would run from a handful of first level Picts as he did in the Black Stranger, so I figure most scouting, hunting and/or war parties will be done by accomplished hands.
In Conan, you can be one critical hit from death no matter what level you are.
Mad Dog
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
MadDog said:
Well, I usually use four 4th level characters led by a 6th level character. That is usually enough to take out a column of Aquilonian troops.
These are the standard demographics I use:
A NPC's level reflects his general competence:
1st - incompetent apprentice
3rd - average young adult professional
5th/6th - seasoned vetran
7th - master
9th - grand master
10th - hero
13th - legend
16th - earth-shaker
19th - myth
And the breakdown of levels in any given population is:
1-3 = 50%
4-6 = 25%
7-9 = 13%
10-12 = 6%
13-15 = 3%
16-18 = 2%
19-20 = 1%
So that makes it about a 2:1 ratio. Furthermore, approximately 45% of the population is 3rd level exactly.
"savage" populations may get a bonus of +1 or +2 levels.
Using all that as guidelines, I will throw together an encounter that seems like an appropriate challenge (error on the side of too hard :twisted: ) and that also seems reasonable.
The PC's main advantage is they usually have better stats than my NPC's who I build on either 25 points (mook) or 28 points (elite).
Hope that helps.
A NPC's level reflects his general competence:
1st - incompetent apprentice
3rd - average young adult professional
5th/6th - seasoned vetran
7th - master
9th - grand master
10th - hero
13th - legend
16th - earth-shaker
19th - myth
And the breakdown of levels in any given population is:
1-3 = 50%
4-6 = 25%
7-9 = 13%
10-12 = 6%
13-15 = 3%
16-18 = 2%
19-20 = 1%
So that makes it about a 2:1 ratio. Furthermore, approximately 45% of the population is 3rd level exactly.
"savage" populations may get a bonus of +1 or +2 levels.
Using all that as guidelines, I will throw together an encounter that seems like an appropriate challenge (error on the side of too hard :twisted: ) and that also seems reasonable.
The PC's main advantage is they usually have better stats than my NPC's who I build on either 25 points (mook) or 28 points (elite).
Hope that helps.
