VincentDarlage
Mongoose
I like that, Argo. Awesome. At any rate, it makes my four savage adult professionals led by a seasoned veteran make sense.
Question about Picts
- Thread starter MadDog
- Start date
Greymane
Mongoose
Why assume that NPCs will always attempt to advance in levels? Are all NPC's considered "adventurers"? Look around the local neighborhood - are your friends and neighbors steadily gaining levels? Or do they sort of plateau an remain at a certain level?
For whatever reason, you could easily justify a large number of 1st to 3rd level villagers that never advance beyond that stage ... one of the advantages for the Picts seems to be their great numbers -- that means there has to be somebody at home keeping the hearth fires burning.
And that don't leave a lot of time for gaining experience and levels --
Question: Do your players know right from the get go what level the enemies are they are facing? Doesn't sort of sap the fun from the encounter? Reduce it to just crunching numbers?
I'm very curious as I tend to play a little more loose and cinematic with the encounters...
Why assume that NPCs will always attempt to advance in levels? Are all NPC's considered "adventurers"? Look around the local neighborhood - are your friends and neighbors steadily gaining levels? Or do they sort of plateau an remain at a certain level?
In this case, the harsh nature of the pictish wilderness would cause the advance or die progression. You cant, on one hand say that only 4th level and above Picts would hunt, raid or war.... after all, how did they _get_ to 4th level in the first place if they were locked in thier huts ?
As for the local neighborhood, if life was like the D20 system, I would of been forced to slay large numbers of people in order to gain my PhD. Fortunately, the cops were never able to pin those bodies to me.
For whatever reason, you could easily justify a large number of 1st to 3rd level villagers that never advance beyond that stage ... one of the advantages for the Picts seems to be their great numbers -- that means there has to be somebody at home keeping the hearth fires burning.
The commoners would moslty be 1, 2nd level. This discussion mainly is in regards to the fighting picts.
Question: Do your players know right from the get go what level the enemies are they are facing? Doesn't sort of sap the fun from the encounter? Reduce it to just crunching numbers?
They dont know jack. Heh. Heh. Heh. I should also point out that the conditions I set are for the "system" at equilibrium. It is quite possible that if the players gain enough notoriety, the picts will respond outside the conditions I have set (I do have a written case for this, but dont want to say in public).
I'm very curious as I tend to play a little more loose and cinematic with the encounters...
I dont want to imply what I am doing is the best or even better way. Its simply the philosphy I use. The nature of the level progression means it gets harder and harder to be higher level. In this case, the numbers of higher level people decline. This being the case, most of the picts are going to be 1st level. To me, it doesnt matter if the players are 1st or 20th level; the basic nature of the pictish wildernes dictates that most of the picts are 1st level. [*]. Just because the players are high level doesnt mean all the picts magically become higher level. That is just silly, IMHO.
Now just because most Picts are 1st level does not imply there is no challenge in the Pictish wilderness for higher level players. In Conan the critical hits -> massive damage and large numbers can overwhelm the toughest players. Furthermore, notorious players will elicit an appropriate response from the picts involving high level Picts.
Mad Dog
[*] It may be that I shoudl start the Pict level progression at 2nd, rather than 1st, to simulate the harsh nature of the wilderness.
In this case, the harsh nature of the pictish wilderness would cause the advance or die progression. You cant, on one hand say that only 4th level and above Picts would hunt, raid or war.... after all, how did they _get_ to 4th level in the first place if they were locked in thier huts ?
As for the local neighborhood, if life was like the D20 system, I would of been forced to slay large numbers of people in order to gain my PhD. Fortunately, the cops were never able to pin those bodies to me.
For whatever reason, you could easily justify a large number of 1st to 3rd level villagers that never advance beyond that stage ... one of the advantages for the Picts seems to be their great numbers -- that means there has to be somebody at home keeping the hearth fires burning.
The commoners would moslty be 1, 2nd level. This discussion mainly is in regards to the fighting picts.
Question: Do your players know right from the get go what level the enemies are they are facing? Doesn't sort of sap the fun from the encounter? Reduce it to just crunching numbers?
They dont know jack. Heh. Heh. Heh. I should also point out that the conditions I set are for the "system" at equilibrium. It is quite possible that if the players gain enough notoriety, the picts will respond outside the conditions I have set (I do have a written case for this, but dont want to say in public).
I'm very curious as I tend to play a little more loose and cinematic with the encounters...
I dont want to imply what I am doing is the best or even better way. Its simply the philosphy I use. The nature of the level progression means it gets harder and harder to be higher level. In this case, the numbers of higher level people decline. This being the case, most of the picts are going to be 1st level. To me, it doesnt matter if the players are 1st or 20th level; the basic nature of the pictish wildernes dictates that most of the picts are 1st level. [*]. Just because the players are high level doesnt mean all the picts magically become higher level. That is just silly, IMHO.
Now just because most Picts are 1st level does not imply there is no challenge in the Pictish wilderness for higher level players. In Conan the critical hits -> massive damage and large numbers can overwhelm the toughest players. Furthermore, notorious players will elicit an appropriate response from the picts involving high level Picts.
Mad Dog
[*] It may be that I shoudl start the Pict level progression at 2nd, rather than 1st, to simulate the harsh nature of the wilderness.
And the breakdown of levels in any given population is:
1-3 = 50%
4-6 = 25%
7-9 = 13%
10-12 = 6%
13-15 = 3%
16-18 = 2%
19-20 = 1%
So that makes it about a 2:1 ratio. Furthermore, approximately 45% of the population is 3rd level exactly.
You realize with that numerical breakdown, in Aquilonia alone, there would be ~ 250,000 nineteenth and 20th level people ? I cant say that is wrong, but it strikes me as a bit high. Conan made it to 20th level after ~20 years of hardcore adventuring.
I think what I need to do is consider "starting" the Picts at second level and use the 2:1 progression.
The PC's main advantage is they usually have better stats than my NPC's who I build on either 25 points (mook) or 28 points (elite).
That is one big advantage the players I have. I allowed the 4D6 generation system. Most PIcts are 28 point builds IIRC.
Mad Dog
I think you made a mistake as well. I don't remember Aquilonia's population off hand but I'm prety sure it isn't 25 million.
At any rate, IMC I also frequently make use of a houserule that "non-combatant" NPC's have HP=Con. So somewhare there is a 20th level brewmaster making some really awsome beer, but it doesn't mean he can beat King Conan in a fight.
Also, "adventurers" gain levels faster than "non-combatants". King Conan made level 20 by mid-age. The 20th level brewmaster is probably 78 or so (with assoicated age penalties). Remember, those stats are for the entire population.
Later.
At any rate, IMC I also frequently make use of a houserule that "non-combatant" NPC's have HP=Con. So somewhare there is a 20th level brewmaster making some really awsome beer, but it doesn't mean he can beat King Conan in a fight.
Also, "adventurers" gain levels faster than "non-combatants". King Conan made level 20 by mid-age. The 20th level brewmaster is probably 78 or so (with assoicated age penalties). Remember, those stats are for the entire population.
Later.
OK, so we had another session. One of the encounters had a raiding party of 7 picts (3xBrb-1, 2xBrb-2, 1xBrb-3, 1xBrb-4 *) locating the party (thief-2, noble-1/borderer-1, noble-1/soldier-1, scholar-2, barbarian-2) and stalking them. Waiting until the players were settled down and eating, they attacked with surprise. The picts managed to get 2 shots of before the players could react (high init rolls). The picts kept shooting until the players closed to hth. I made sure they got the multiple attacker bonuses and used the finesse attack for the hatchet. Once the picts lost 4 team members, they tried to flee.
End result, all players up, although most lightly to moderately wounded, all Picts dead. Those that tried to flee were shot down.
If this keeps up, the picts will realize the players are not easy pickings.
Do Pictish tactics include focusing on a single enemy ? Would all the pict bowmen fire on a single armored target to bring him down ?
Mad Dog
[*] I also implements the changes to the pict description: changed the Jump background skill to Survival, removed armor proficiencies, and gave them Dodge feat.
End result, all players up, although most lightly to moderately wounded, all Picts dead. Those that tried to flee were shot down.
If this keeps up, the picts will realize the players are not easy pickings.
Do Pictish tactics include focusing on a single enemy ? Would all the pict bowmen fire on a single armored target to bring him down ?
Mad Dog
[*] I also implements the changes to the pict description: changed the Jump background skill to Survival, removed armor proficiencies, and gave them Dodge feat.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
In my campaigns they almost always focus on one person at a time. Pick him off, then run and hope angry people follow. Then they do it again.
Greymane
Mongoose
What is the outcome that you wish to see from the Picts?
Do you want them to force the players to flee? To kill a PC and take trophies, fleeing into the woods?
What is is about the Picts that is disappointing?
I think that you've posted before that you feel that larger numbers would be impractical, considering surprise and stealth - what about letting the party know that they are in for it? Have them hear the Pictish war drums for several hours and then- cold and deadly silence...
Do you want them to force the players to flee? To kill a PC and take trophies, fleeing into the woods?
What is is about the Picts that is disappointing?
I think that you've posted before that you feel that larger numbers would be impractical, considering surprise and stealth - what about letting the party know that they are in for it? Have them hear the Pictish war drums for several hours and then- cold and deadly silence...
What is the outcome that you wish to see from the Picts?
I dont desire any outcome other than trying to have the picts behave as they should. In this case (the first encounter), they see they outnumber the intruders, and thinking they are easy game, attack.
Do you want them to force the players to flee? To kill a PC and take trophies, fleeing into the woods?
I am trying to operate them as the authors (REH and Vincent) envisioned. If the picts know the players are tough, they will probably start concentrating on one player then running.
What is is about the Picts that is disappointing?
No matter what tactics you use for the picts, once you get into hth, the picts suffer greatly due to a lack of armor. Thats not disappointing, just something I have to adjust to.
I think that you've posted before that you feel that larger numbers would be impractical, considering surprise and stealth - what about letting the party know that they are in for it? Have them hear the Pictish war drums for several hours and then- cold and deadly silence...
The drums are something I have written in the adventure, but not really introduced yet. Since the players have no idea what the drums mean, it will add an element of mystery.
Mad Dog
I dont desire any outcome other than trying to have the picts behave as they should. In this case (the first encounter), they see they outnumber the intruders, and thinking they are easy game, attack.
Do you want them to force the players to flee? To kill a PC and take trophies, fleeing into the woods?
I am trying to operate them as the authors (REH and Vincent) envisioned. If the picts know the players are tough, they will probably start concentrating on one player then running.
What is is about the Picts that is disappointing?
No matter what tactics you use for the picts, once you get into hth, the picts suffer greatly due to a lack of armor. Thats not disappointing, just something I have to adjust to.
I think that you've posted before that you feel that larger numbers would be impractical, considering surprise and stealth - what about letting the party know that they are in for it? Have them hear the Pictish war drums for several hours and then- cold and deadly silence...
The drums are something I have written in the adventure, but not really introduced yet. Since the players have no idea what the drums mean, it will add an element of mystery.
Mad Dog
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
I don't think they would attack just because they outnumber the foe - they would check to see what kind of arms and equipment they have, would still only concentrate on one at a time to create an atmosphere of fear and would do everything they can not to lose anything. Any leader who loses men also loses prestige and face with the rest of the tribe. Unless driven to a frenzy by a shaman, they will be conservative with their attacks.
They are not stupid. They know how to battle armoured foes - one at a time, hopefully while the others are asleep or when they are peeing or otherwise a little farther out of sight than they might otherwise be.
Indeed, they will probably test the mettle of the characters by trying to steal a weapon from them before meeting them in combat. Run up and knock down (surprise!), take weapon/gear and run off (hopefully they have initiative). If the characters stay in the woods long enough, they may find themselves totally disarmed...
They are not stupid. They know how to battle armoured foes - one at a time, hopefully while the others are asleep or when they are peeing or otherwise a little farther out of sight than they might otherwise be.
Indeed, they will probably test the mettle of the characters by trying to steal a weapon from them before meeting them in combat. Run up and knock down (surprise!), take weapon/gear and run off (hopefully they have initiative). If the characters stay in the woods long enough, they may find themselves totally disarmed...
...to concentrate fire before you mentioned it.
Unfortunately, it is difficult to steal an item on an awake player. A surprise round means the pict can close, but if they lose init, an attempt to disarm will lead to an AOO which is probably lethal. I will have to give it a try though.
thanks,
Mad Dog
Unfortunately, it is difficult to steal an item on an awake player. A surprise round means the pict can close, but if they lose init, an attempt to disarm will lead to an AOO which is probably lethal. I will have to give it a try though.
thanks,
Mad Dog
A question about hyborias Fiercest:
On page 60, there is a terrain table for Forest Terrain.
How do I interpret this table ?
For example, under the Dense forest column, there is an entry of "Typical Trees" 80% and "Massive Trees" 20%. Does this mean 80% of all trees in a Dense forest are typical, or 80% of all 5' squares in a Dense forest contain typical trees ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
On page 60, there is a terrain table for Forest Terrain.
How do I interpret this table ?
For example, under the Dense forest column, there is an entry of "Typical Trees" 80% and "Massive Trees" 20%. Does this mean 80% of all trees in a Dense forest are typical, or 80% of all 5' squares in a Dense forest contain typical trees ?
thanks,
Mad Dog
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
MadDog said:
Don't do it to an awake character.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
MadDog said:
They would probably flee if they have warnings. Anyone who can get that close to a village intending to hurt the village would frighten them.
I have never had a PC of any level get that far into Pictland as an armed hostile force. They had to do a lot of sneaking to get to a village - even then they got what they came for and left.
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
MadDog said:
Yes.
Sutek
Mongoose
Also keep in mind guys, and this is presumably when Vincent mentioned it above, (A) sleeping opponents aren't instantly awakened and (B) a surprise round is distinctly different from "winning initiative".
A) According ot the feat Sleep Mastery on page 118, that's the only way to become fully awake as a free action. My guess is taht it would be a standard action normally (as I can usually jump right outoof bed in the middle of the night, but I still haven't a clue as to what's going on and wouldn't dare take a swing at anything for at least a second to be sure it isn't the dog! - lol).
B) Regardless, the surprise round is a round strictly for the attacker that takes place prior to inititative order combat. Surprise attackers go first and opponents don't have Dodge/Parry. Then initiatives are rolled and the attackers, if they win, can get to go again, still without their opponents losing Dodge/Parry.
It's also worth clarifying again I suppose that any foe caught without either Dodge or Parry, not even necessarily both at the same time, can be sneak attacked. This is clarified on pg177 when refering to ranged sneak attacking being possible becuase a target of such an attack cannot Parry it.
A) According ot the feat Sleep Mastery on page 118, that's the only way to become fully awake as a free action. My guess is taht it would be a standard action normally (as I can usually jump right outoof bed in the middle of the night, but I still haven't a clue as to what's going on and wouldn't dare take a swing at anything for at least a second to be sure it isn't the dog! - lol).
B) Regardless, the surprise round is a round strictly for the attacker that takes place prior to inititative order combat. Surprise attackers go first and opponents don't have Dodge/Parry. Then initiatives are rolled and the attackers, if they win, can get to go again, still without their opponents losing Dodge/Parry.
It's also worth clarifying again I suppose that any foe caught without either Dodge or Parry, not even necessarily both at the same time, can be sneak attacked. This is clarified on pg177 when refering to ranged sneak attacking being possible becuase a target of such an attack cannot Parry it.
