Question about Picts

[Sutek]

Hmmm... say you're a Cimmerian or Zingaran, and you arrive in the Pictish lands and see a trail heading off into the trees...

The Picts don'thave to know you're ther or coming or even where you're headed. They are paranoid and xenophibic and therfore likely to have already set trasps on the off chance someone comes traipsing that way. Heck, even a small barb with the proper poisons on it can get two or three members of a decent sized intruding band.

Picts get +2 to all Hide checks and shold have a high WIS to boot. This should also be one of thier higer skill ranks making the offsetting Hide/Spot checks fall in thier favor. I'd say that any self respecting intercepting Pictish warband would be properly camouflaged too, and have Knowledge (local Jungle) to provide a GM imposed synergy bonus if I really want to be clever. 20+ Picts of equal or even only slightly lower level should do a number on just about any PC party.

Blowdart with enough black lotus on it and PC members are droping like flies...never mind rotting armor... :twisted:

 

[VincentDarlage]

First problem: that many picts will not remain unspotted (Spot is the single most important skill in the game and the players know it).
Second problem: assumes Picts know about the players
Third problem: assumes the picts have plenty of time to prepare the traps.

If you assume the Picts are not the masters of their world that the rest of us assume they are, then your players will chew through them like toys. If you continually put the Picts at a disadvantage, then, yeah, they will lose against PCs. Change your assumptions a bit and you may have more fun with them. Assume that Picts will remain unspotted in forests. Assume the Picts will find out about the players. Assume the Picts know where their pre-set traps are and will manage to corral invaders in that direction.

Really, all you need is one Pict going Rambo style in the woods - then imagine two Picts and go on up from there.

 

[XcomSquaddie]

I was glancing through AtTR last night and I noticed that the average Wisdom for 1st level picts was 9. I would pump this up to a 10-12. The picts depend on their senses for their survival.

Also, remember that no characters are going to hack their way through the woods. They will be using trails and paths. From hidden vantage points, Picts will be watching the trails.

The characters will not be able to hide, and the Picts will automatically see them. The average Pict has a 9+ in hide. Say an average roll of 10 and you have a 19+ for hide, modified by distance (-1 per 10 feet). If the Picts are 50 feet away, thats a 24+ for an average hide check.

If the Picts are more than 50 feet away, I'd let them automatically succeed.

Hope that helps.

 

[Trodax]

The average Pict has a 9+ in hide. Say an average roll of 10 and you have a 19+ for hide, modified by distance (-1 per 10 feet). If the Picts are 50 feet away, thats a 24+ for an average hide check.

I think what MadDog is saying is that in a large group of picts (like 20), at least one is likely to roll very low, which is all it takes for making it very easy to detect them (a roll of 1 in your example would give a Spot DC of 15, which ain't that hard to beat). This assumes you would roll separately for every single pict, which I wouldn't do myself. I'd either make one roll for the entire warband, let them "take 10", or just fudge the whole thing and say they aren't detected.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The characters will not be able to hide, and the Picts will automatically see them. The average Pict has a 9+ in hide. Say an average roll of 10 and you have a 19+ for hide, modified by distance (-1 per 10 feet). If the Picts are 50 feet away, thats a 24+ for an average hide check.

Also, if the Picts are hiding in heavy undergrowth, that gives a further +5 to Hide (page 60 in Hyboria's Fiercest), giving an average of 29+. Notice also that the detection distance in forests (page 61 of Hyboria's Fiercest) is also reduced - AND the distance modifier becomes -2 per 10 feet instead of -1.

I would also just make a single check for the entire warband and/or fudge it.

 

[Sutek]

I prefer to think of it as "dramatic liscence" rather than "fudging"....

 

[argo]

All this presupposes the Picts know the players are coming and have time to prepare. That is very rare at best. Your typical encounter is going to be involving 30 picts at most (war party) blundering into the players.

Well thats your whole problem right there. Picts simply do not blunder into anybody. At least, not unless that person is themselves a superior master of woodscraft and you haven't indicated that that is the case with your players. Not only is the warparty itself going to be prety sneaky but there will be scouts/runners moving ahead of the warparty making sure that they know what is up ahead in plenty of time.

Go out this weekend and rent Last of the Mohicans the one starring Daniel Day Lewis. That will give you all kinds of ideas of how Picts (and Borderers) fight.

Later.

 

[Sutek]

Or find yourself a Viet Nam vet and ask him how the Viet Cong did it.

Guys would sit in trees for days with minimal food and water and not appreciable protection with a pair of solid sticks or a bamboo tube. If anyone approached within earshot, and they could tell the difference between men and beasts, they'd signal it by clicking the sticks together or blowing a call through the bamboo. Then they go out of there. No trace. By the time the Viet Cong had wrapped around the position of the US troops. they were positioned in prime ambush or sniping positions to disrupt the collumn, not necessary kill people off. They'd drive them this way into booby trap zones and then spring a concewrted hit-and-run attack...

 

[MadDog]

The Picts don'thave to know you're ther or coming or even where you're headed. They are paranoid and xenophibic and therfore likely to have already set trasps on the off chance someone comes traipsing that way. Heck, even a small barb with the proper poisons on it can get two or three members of a decent sized intruding band.

I have a hard time beleiving that in the huge, vast Pictish wilderness, anyone, even Picts are going to leave large numbers of random traps lying around. The chance of running into one is phenominally slim given the large area of the westermark and Pictish wilderness. Sure, maybe marked trails or obvious avenues of travel would be trapped.

Picts get +2 to all Hide checks and shold have a high WIS to boot. This should also be one of thier higer skill ranks making the offsetting Hide/Spot checks fall in thier favor. I'd say that any self respecting intercepting Pictish warband would be properly camouflaged too, and have Knowledge (local Jungle) to provide a GM imposed synergy bonus if I really want to be clever. 20+ Picts of equal or even only slightly lower level should do a number on just about any PC party.

All the bonuses are accounted for in the Pict descriptions in AtTR. Even so, from a pure mathematical standpoint, the more Picts there are, the more likely they will be spotted, even assuming they have a good H/MS. I like the idea of a camoflage bonus , but the problem is that war parties have Picts with giant white skulls painted on thier chests which kind of stand out in a green forest.

Blowdart with enough black lotus on it and PC members are droping like flies...never mind rotting armor...

Whoa, hold on there. How is a Pict going to get Black Lotus ? By the descriptions, it doesnt grow in the Pictland. Poison use ? As none or few of the Picts have Poison Use as a feat, they wil end up poisoning themselves (according to the rules, which I personally dislike, but those are the rules).

I do appreciate all the replies I am getting. I dont mean to sound combative, but if I make the players play by the rules, I have to also.

Mad Dog

 

[MadDog]

If you assume the Picts are not the masters of their world that the rest of us assume they are, then your players will chew through them like toys. If you continually put the Picts at a disadvantage, then, yeah, they will lose against PCs. Change your assumptions a bit and you may have more fun with them. Assume that Picts will remain unspotted in forests. Assume the Picts will find out about the players. Assume the Picts know where their pre-set traps are and will manage to corral invaders in that direction.

Dont take this the wrong way, Vincent, I do like your material, but it appears you just told me to blow off some of the very rules you wrote, and cheat in favor of the Picts.

In the combats so far, I gave the Picts _every_ advantage they can use and they came out a poor second best. Flanking, Multiple Opponents, Surprise, Minimum Damage were all used to the Picts advantage.

Now, having said that I think I can improve by using Aid Others and finesse attacks more often. I also think my assumptions on the typical Pict levels are low. I need to increase the numbers of the higher level Picts to reflect the harsh unforgiving nature of the land. Maybe having a 5:1 tier structure is more appropriate (for every 5 lvl-1, there is 1 lvl-2. For every 5 lvl2-there is 1 lvl3, and so on).

Really, all you need is one Pict going Rambo style in the woods - then imagine two Picts and go on up from there.

Rambo had a machine gun.

Maybe this is degenerating into a discussion on GM style. For what its worth, I like everything to have a reason. Picts arent just hanging around in trees waiting for the off hand chance someone wanders by (this isnt supposed to play like a cheezy ninja flick). Picts arent omniscient and they arent super-human. The Picts have to spend a large portion of thier time hunting and not fighting. The Picts are too fragmented and doing too much infighting to be able to patrol the wilderness looking for foreigners all the time.

Maybe the Pict racial description needs a change ? I have been considering adding the following:

No Armor Proficiency: A pict who is not trained outside of the Pictish wilderness does not gain armor proficiency for any of his classes

Dodge Bonus: due to the harsh environment of the Pictish Wilderness, the Picts have learned to survive without armor. Any Pict not wearing armor and under a light load gains a +2 natural Dodge Bonus.

Again, dont take this as criticism. I like Conan, I like AtTR, but I absolutely hate fudging things one direction or another.

Mad "Ruminating" Dog

 

[MadDog]

I think what MadDog is saying is that in a large group of picts (like 20), at least one is likely to roll very low, which is all it takes for making it very easy to detect them (a roll of 1 in your example would give a Spot DC of 15, which ain't that hard to beat). This assumes you would roll separately for every single pict, which I wouldn't do myself. I'd either make one roll for the entire warband, let them "take 10", or just fudge the whole thing and say they aren't detected.

Thats exactly what I mean.

There must be an easier way to boil all the chances into a single die roll, but I imagine you would need excel or JMP to calculate it for you.

Mad Dog

 

[MadDog]

Also, if the Picts are hiding in heavy undergrowth, that gives a further +5 to Hide (page 60 in Hyboria's Fiercest), giving an average of 29+. Notice also that the detection distance in forests (page 61 of Hyboria's Fiercest) is also reduced - AND the distance modifier becomes -2 per 10 feet instead of -1.

Question: the distance mod is for Listen, not spot, as written. Did you intend it to affect Spot, also ?

I am still digesting HF, so you have a good point. On the other hand, according to those same rules, it makes it harder to Move Silently through. I do not doubt that if the Picts know the players are coming, they can make an effective ambush siituation.

Mad Dog

 

[MadDog]

Well thats your whole problem right there. Picts simply do not blunder into anybody. At least, not unless that person is themselves a superior master of woodscraft and you haven't indicated that that is the case with your players. Not only is the warparty itself going to be prety sneaky but there will be scouts/runners moving ahead of the warparty making sure that they know what is up ahead in plenty of time.

Both parties were unable to spot each other at longer range, thus the "blunder". This caused the meeting engagement to take place.

Argo gets the award for "Best Tactical Advice So Far This Thread". I forgot about having the picts always having scouts out. Now that I think about it, AtTR does talk about this.

Mad Dog

 

[XcomSquaddie]

Visualize this.

The Picts are basically Native American tribes, with magic, myth, legend and tall tales thrown in. The Picts exist in a constant state of warfare. They fight other tribes, encroaching Hyborians and Cimmerians, even the environment around them is hostile.

A Pictish tribe will control a particular swath of territory. The surrounding tribes will also control territory and the boundaries will be understood by all concerned. Some tribes will have alliances, but most will be neutral at best. Like as not, most tribes will be enemies.

As I stated in an earlier post, the tribes will use trails and pathways. Simply heading out "cross-country" would be extremely dangerous, even for the picts. The trails at the edges of the territory would be clearly marked, in Pict signs, with warnings, scalps, threats and curses.

On the main trails, there will be sentries. Remember, constant warfare. The sentries will be hidden in well concealed blinds, natural or artificial, and will be impossible to spot. The sentries will not engage targets. Trespassers will not even realize they have been spotted. But whether by runner, bird call, carrier pigeon or what not, word will be passed back to the camp.

The smaller trails will be patrolled by the hunting parties. Again, constant warfare. Not only must the hunters avoid other picts, but they have to contend with predators like grizzly bears, sabre tooth tigers and those swamp beastie thingies whose name I can't remember right now. And all this is on a daily basis. So these hunters will be stealthy and alert. Again, intruders will be marked and stalked, word will be sent and the forces will be rallied.

The Picts are not like the Turanians or Aquilonians. A tribe of Picts can not afford to lose warriors in feints, diversions and mass combat. While the total population is exceedingly high, every tribe is a separate entity. they unite only under rare circumstances.

The Picts can move in front of a party, remember, they're moving on trails, and set up simple traps like punji stakes. Soon the party will be moving at a crawl, quite literally if the traps are successful. Shamans can summon forest beasties and magical monsters, and even hunters can lure dangerous critters into a party of outsiders.

The Picts are fighting on home territory. While the characters are conducting a military mission, searching for treasure or whatnot, the Picts are fighting for their survival. Any sign of weakness on their part will encourage the surrounding tribes to wipe them out. They are literally fighting for their lives. By entering a Picts territory, you are challenging them. You are threatening their homes, women, children and religion.

The Picts will use ANY means to kill, capture or drive off intruders. Failure or defeat is simply not an option. They will use everything from bows and arrows to magics, poisons, the environment, animals, monsters, even disease.

The Picts are not Stupid. They know about armor and steel weapons. They will not waste their lives and endanger their tribe unless there is no other option. Since they are Picts, there is always another option.

It's not about conforming to the rules. Once you start thinking like a Pict, the game rules will resolve themselves.

Hope all that helps.

 

[Strom]

Great ideas. I would also suggest you read Robert E. Howard's story Beyond the Black River for inspiration on how to use your Picts. Conan was at the top of his skills and abilities in that story and probably should not have survived. The ambush when Conan crosses the river in a canoe comes to mind. Also, the Picts were very successful in attacking the fort and did overrun it and many of the settler’s huts in the Westermark. As for implementing the same traits in game terms, remember that there is a world outside the PC's and events can be happenning that could determine the Picts strength. Maybe they overun the settlement the PC's just left. Now the Picts have the fort! Also, like the Howard story utilize the Shamans magic to stir up a bloodlust - maybe not in a intial attack but at the climax when things are looking good for the PC's and they think they have the fight won - send a mass of blood crazed Picts over an over. There should never be a shortage of Picts - never!

 

[VincentDarlage]

Rambo had a machine gun.

He had a knife in the scene I was referring to. He escaped the police station on a motorcycle and had a knife. He took out the sherriff's men with just the knife. He didn't get the gun until they guy fell out of the helicopter, which was immediately after the scene I was talking about.

Picts arent just hanging around in trees waiting for the off hand chance someone wanders by (this isnt supposed to play like a cheezy ninja flick). Picts arent omniscient and they arent super-human. The Picts have to spend a large portion of thier time hunting and not fighting. The Picts are too fragmented and doing too much infighting to be able to patrol the wilderness looking for foreigners all the time.

OH! I thought you were talking about Picts in their war paint. The Hyborians have no reason to worry about Picts in hunting paint or no paint at all. They can walk up and trade with those Picts. Also, an encounter with hunting Picts does not necessarily mean the Picts are walking around - they could be up in a trees, waiting for deer to pass along the trail, well hidden and silent. The PCs would never know they were there until they wanted the PCs to know.

If they are on the war path though they would indeed be actively defending their turf and aggressively (but silently) moving through an enemy land - using scouts and the every trick in the book to get an ambush, including dawn attacks, just before everyone wakes up.

 

[Greymane]

I love these suggestions, as I am getting set for our group to enter the Pictish Wilderness very soon.

But to address Mad Dog's quote that if his player's have to play by the rules then so does he ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but none of the rules in the book are set in stone, are they? They are guidelines to help determine what course of action to take...

Sure the combat charts and weapon damage and modifiers are what we follow to illustrate the outcome of actions and consequences, but I don't think they should "over rule" the situation you are trying to create for your players.

If you want the Picts to surprise the player's, then they surprise the players -- not everything needs to be determined by a roll of the dice.

I know in my campaign the Picts have Native American/Viet Cong tendencies, but they in no way look or act like American Indians or Viet Cong - they are an elemental force that is to be feared. Thier society is a savage one, much closer to the earth than the other 'civlizations' in the rest of the Hyborian world.

If you have a hard time imagining a forest full of unseen traps, then perhaps your Picts are more civilized than mine...

Are the Picts civilized? To a point... they have family and societal structures much like any other tribal people - but it stops there. They do not follow the codes and methods of the more advanced peoples beyond their borders, they are savage, brutal, silent and quick.

Are the Picts cultured? To a point... they have gods and religion, a minimal sense of order. But everything about them is embodied by the rampant savagery of the primeval world. They are what civilised men fear the most -- the eyes that stare out of the deep dark forest -- the beasts we once were.

But the Picts (in my campaign at least) are not of this world... they come from an earlier age. They hit fast and disappear. And they take trophies... can you imagine what sort of impact that would have on the moral modifiers of a party if they see the head of a friend on a Pictish pig pole?

Anyway, just wanted to throw my hat in the ring concerning the Picts...

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well said, Greymane!

 

[Trodax]

I agree; great post Greymane!

I think what MadDog is saying is that in a large group of picts (like 20), at least one is likely to roll very low, which is all it takes for making it very easy to detect them (a roll of 1 in your example would give a Spot DC of 15, which ain't that hard to beat). This assumes you would roll separately for every single pict, which I wouldn't do myself. I'd either make one roll for the entire warband, let them "take 10", or just fudge the whole thing and say they aren't detected.

Thats exactly what I mean.

There must be an easier way to boil all the chances into a single die roll, but I imagine you would need excel or JMP to calculate it for you.

Thing is, if you roll separately for every single character involved in an ambush (as I guess you should by the rules), large numbers will make it very, very hard to succed at ambushing. I think this is your point MadDog; that a large group of picts will have a very hard time sneaking up on someone.

An extreme example, just to show what I mean: If a group of 100 picts all make Hide checks, there is a 99,5% chance that at least one of them will roll a 1. Likewise, if 100 Westermark settlers all make Spot checks, there is a 99,5% chance that at least one of them will roll a 20. This means that is is virtually impossible for the picts to succeed at ambushing when such large numbers are involved, unless the picts Hide modifier beat the settlers Spot modifier by at least 20 (including circumstantial modifiers, of course).

To me, this is more an aspect of the randomness of a d20 (there's a pretty high chance of getting extreme results), then some kind of "natural law for ambushing in numbers". Basically, I don't think the rules work all that well if used like this. (At least, they don't make picts into what I want them to be. :wink: )

If I had to adjudicate a situation like this in my game, I would probably leave the die-rolling mostly to the PCs and use the "take 10"-rule for all unimportant NPCs (don't know if "take 10" should apply to things like this, but I like the rule ). So if the PCs were ambushed by a warband of 20 picts I would just say that it was a DC 24 (or whatever) Spot check to detect them.

Sorry if this seemed like a little divergence into Hide/Spot probabilities, but it sounds to me that some of the disagreement in this thread is that people are saying that picts are masters of their environment, and MadDog is saying that this isn't really supported by the rules.

 

[Voltumna]

great thread, i'm joining the fray! for options on class i think borderer with the skirmisher combat style is a great choice for picts. the favoured terrain feature of borderers would suit them nicely, improving dodge dv and hide and move silently bonuses. at higher levels they improve speed as well. say an experienced pict scout leading a small party of barbarian picts, could use his guide ability to further aid the hide and move silently checks of his comrades. for other class options a level of thief and light footed can give a pict 2 dice of sneak attack damage even at 1st thief level. it feels right for a pict to be able to deliver sneak attacks because of their sneakiness. from across thunder river, i particularly liked the dancing savage prestige class as it grants sneak attack. moreover, it doesn't seem you need to be a pict barbarian to take levels on dancing savage, all the feats can be takes as character feats. probably vincent can clarify this.