Psionics & Genetics

[Astromancer]

According to recent discoveries in the biological sciences. Some genes get switched on or off due to enviromental factors. Some of these effects can be inheirited! Biologists are calling this epigenetics.

Some epigentic effects occur in all humans. Fetal hemogloban would be useless/fatal to an adult, and adult hemogloban would kill a fetus. The genes are known to switch off and on.

If we assume that the genes for Psi are present, but switched off, in most people, then early childhood environment has an epigenetic effect.

Zhodani nobles and intendents provide a great environment for switching on Psi-genes. But if those genes aren't present, it doesn't matter.

A further complication might be that a genetically "pure" Psi might not be fully viable. Just as one Scikle Cell Anemia means you're very resistant to malaria, and two SCA traits mean you're scikly and die young, too high a concentraition of Psi-genes could be fatal. Heck, Grandfather might have designed us that way as a limiting factor!

Reactions?

 

[captainjack23]

My point was, and I think you got that, was the character generation rules (including the psionics rules) reflect what anyone could do, not what everyone does do. That's where the breakdown occurs.

Well indeed I did get your point, and agree with your shoemaker example.
Anyway, I think you get my point too, so everybody's happy. Basically the rules can give some indication but are not a sufficient "proof".

Actually, there is a shoemaker career -its called "citizen"; but the point is still relevant. In any case, the 2d6 roll for Psionics must be a player characters are special type roll. Otherwise, one would have to assume that over half the population anywhere have a Psi rating of 7 + ; which doesn't seem to be what the game is aiming for, in most permutations of the OTU/GTU setting, let alone the Zhods.

For them, the additional trouble is this: if one allows that everyone has a Psi rating (2d6) and all Nobles get training regardless of their psi, and that only proles with Psi 9+ become intendentrs, there are still vast numbers of proles that will have a higher Psi than many of the nobles...which would probably make things hard to keep lidded, all considered.

So, yes, I'm working now on the assumptioon that a PC rolls because he is a PC -normal humaniti has a basic yes/no roll.

So, what might that be ?

Well, from the Zhodanis, we may be able to ballpark.
we know that roughly 15 % of the Zhodani proles (I think) seem to have have psi at 9+ (all intendents);


A basic 2d6 roll of 9+ has a probability of .....10/36 or ~28%

If all Zhodani had psionics, one would assume that therefore, 28% would be intendent level Psionics. So....the yes /no roll would need to satisfy 28X=15, or X=15/28 or .54 .

So, a coinflip, basically for proles. (and yes, correcting for the number of nobles changes things a bit -.53...so don't worry )

it's less clear for the nobles -do they have the same limits ? Or are low psi noble children trained (unlike proles). Nobles were about 5% of the Zhodani population as a whole.

One possibiity is this: That nobles being nobles, bloodline is still important even if it has no relation to liklihood of psionic ability. In this scenario, unlike with proles who require a 9+ to be elevated, the Nobles invest any noble child with any psi rating (2+), which with the coinflip for yes/no, suggests that half their children would get to be nobles, but lots of them would be PsiTards (2-4, say), which implies lots of the nobility isn't as good as the intendents or the un selected proles. Probably not good for such a stable society, even with the thought police.

So, more likely, I'd guess that , to keep the levels of Psi high in the Nobility, and have some liklihood of getting their children confirmed as Nobles they'd reach some compromise number that would maximise both average psi in the nobility and maximise bloodline retention:

say a noble's qualifying cutpoint is 7+ - this gives a (1/2 * 21/36) chance of a Nobles child being a noble (~30%) and gives an the noble class an average Psi level of 8.7
....pretty close to the intendent minimum of 9 and average of 10.

And the prole average is 4 for all proles with Psi, and 2 for the population as a whole (including the low PSi noble children). Okay, that looks doable.

 

[captainjack23]

According to recent discoveries in the biological sciences. Some genes get switched on or off due to enviromental factors. Some of these effects can be inheirited! Biologists are calling this epigenetics.

Some epigentic effects occur in all humans. Fetal hemogloban would be useless/fatal to an adult, and adult hemogloban would kill a fetus. The genes are known to switch off and on.

If we assume that the genes for Psi are present, but switched off, in most people, then early childhood environment has an epigenetic effect.

Zhodani nobles and intendents provide a great environment for switching on Psi-genes. But if those genes aren't present, it doesn't matter.

A further complication might be that a genetically "pure" Psi might not be fully viable. Just as one Scikle Cell Anemia means you're very resistant to malaria, and two SCA traits mean you're scikly and die young, too high a concentraition of Psi-genes could be fatal. Heck, Grandfather might have designed us that way as a limiting factor!

Reactions?

It certainly fits with the GURPS description - but for me, I'm more interested in the implications of the Megatraveller/GDW statement that it is completely unrelated to genetics - and thus epigenetics also, as the observation is that psionics parents have no greater liklihood of having psionic children than non-psionics. That doesn't fit with epigenetics, or even complex recessive effects , of even survival mediated differential expression (as with SCA).

While psionics probably ought to follow natural laws to some degree (and thus be a genetic trait ) they already ignore several physical laws with their effects, so perhaps that's expecting too much - and also, for me , it makes for a more alien culture for the Zhodani than simply being bloodline obsessed chinless nobility with turbans.

Also, and this is an afterthought - given the amount of time the Zhodanis have been doing this, (tens of thousands of years), if there is a genetic component, one would expect to possibly see greater physical differences between proles and Nobles, but mostly one would expect that rates of psi transmission within nobles and within proles proles would be stabiized, given that proles are constantly being selected for lower psi (by the removal of intendents) , and Nobles for higher Psi (by the addition of intendents). Think of animal breeding - purebred lines concentrate desired traits by ruthlessly selecting for limited variance....and fairly quickly hit the point where they breed true, because they have essentially no variance in the selected traits. And as with animal breeding, this has its own problems as regards concentrating unintended genetic abnormalities (Great Dane breeding being an example, IIRC)

 

[Emperor Herdan]

It certainly fits with the GURPS description - but for me, I'm more interested in the implications of the Megatraveller/GDW statement that it is competely unrelated to genetics - and thus epigenetics also, as the observation is that psionics parents have no greater liklihood of having psionic children than non-psionics. That doesn't fit with epigenetics, or even complex recessive effects , of even survival mediated differential expression (as with SCA).

Hmmm that seems to be a problem, because if its not related to Genetics (and enviromental factors...), are we then looking at the dreaded "Midichlorian" effect? (for the one or two people who might not know... its what gives Jedi's their powers....)

Did they give a clue on how Psionics arose? (Ne'er did much MGT at all. went from CT to TNE.)

Either way you've got a great paper just waiting there!

Take care

E. Herdan

 

[Infojunky]

I'm more interested in the implications of the Megatraveller/GDW statement that it is completely unrelated to genetics - and thus epigenetics also, as the observation is that psionics parents have no greater liklihood of having psionic children than non-psionics. That doesn't fit with epigenetics, or even complex recessive effects , of even survival mediated differential expression (as with SCA).

Well one answer could be the erratic route of the Psionics Fairy....

Or

To take it out of the reproductive DNA model, Psionis are a very tissue specific virus. This one I like.....

 

[daryen]

I disagree that EVERYONE is psionic. The 2D6 roll is merely an artifact of character generation. It is there so that players can have interesting characters, not because EVERYONE is psionic. (This very concept was mentioned in the TNE rulebook.)

If this is not the case, then looking at CT, every citizen of the entire Imperium is either an ex-Military, ex-Merchant, or scum. Which obviously isn't true. They are just conceits used to allow players to get a skilled, capable, and interesting character.

Same with psionics. Everyone is NOT psionic, nor do most even have any psionic potential. Psionics is exceptional, not common. If it were common, then the Traveller universe would be very different.

(IMO. As I said, this was true of TNE. It was never really stated in CT. It is up to TPTB to make this decision for MGT.)

 

[zanwot]

For them, the additional trouble is this: if one allows that everyone has a Psi rating (2d6) and all Nobles get training regardless of their psi, and that only proles with Psi 9+ become intendentrs, there are still vast numbers of proles that will have a higher Psi than many of the nobles...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that when you made a Zhodani character on a psi roll pf 10-11 it was an intendant, 12 it was a noble, and 2-9 was a prole. But this is all very uncertain, from waaaaay back.

If this is not the case, then looking at CT, every citizen of the entire Imperium is either an ex-Military, ex-Merchant, or scum. Which obviously isn't true. They are just conceits used to allow players to get a skilled, capable, and interesting character.

That was allready discussed just before. But you do have a point, partly.

 

[klingsor]

It must have been something that could be manipulated with sufficiently advanced science – the ancients presumably did this with the humans who were the ancestors of the Zhodani. If it was not genetics what else could it have been?
Rewiring the brain has been portrayed in several SF stories such as Lawrence Watt-Evans The Cyborg and the Sorcerers and The Wizard and the War Machine as well as Julian May’s Saga of the Exiles series. I must admit I do not like this idea and think it less likely – however it does make a pretty good match for the psionics institutes – only a psionic can flip the on switch to make other people psionic, something about the testing process acts as a trigger, an idea that seems very promising.
We could start waffling about retro-viruses but I think we had best not go there.

 

[Matrix Cypher]

Perhaps the gene cannot be detected by normal technological means, and the Zhos have just been doing the genetic breading the tried and true way. Matching the best candidates, and crossing the fingers that the child will be psionic. My guess is that you get a greater chance if both are, but yet retain a smaller chance that the child will be normal. Kinda like in our world with normal births, and the autistic. Then again maybe there was a breakthrough and the Zho discovered the gene just before the lab and scientists were hit by the wave. and in the ensewing chaos lost the info, or perhaps its still there.

Just a thought.

 

[klingsor]

Perhaps the gene cannot be detected by normal technological means

Sorry, I cannot accept that, we are right back in Metachlorian territory so one might as well say it is magic. Otherwise I think you are right, in fact I rather think this is what you are saying, that it just seems to be random. However that still bothers me, if the characteristic is genetic at all it can be detected and understood, even our TL-7/8 medicine has made great strides in this.

Maybe we should be thinking of it more in terms of intelligence, complicated, - dumb parents can produce a smart child - and visa versa. Though I suspect this will become better understood fairly soon throwing us back on genetics so that is wrong as well.

They could breed for psionics but that would be unacceptable - no wait, would it be any worse than arranged marriages - and if it meant your children might become nobles you would jump at it. Back to them being happy enough with the system - who is going to run the factories if everyone is psionic?

 

[captainjack23]

For them, the additional trouble is this: if one allows that everyone has a Psi rating (2d6) and all Nobles get training regardless of their psi, and that only proles with Psi 9+ become intendentrs, there are still vast numbers of proles that will have a higher Psi than many of the nobles...

Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that when you made a Zhodani character on a psi roll pf 10-11 it was an intendant, 12 it was a noble, and 2-9 was a prole. But this is all very uncertain, from waaaaay back.

Well, in Alien Book 4, the sequence for generating characters has ones Soc raised to A if Psi 9+ and Soc<A; and training is only available to those with Soc A+. presumably this is the cut for becoming an intendednt -one can have a Psi of less than 9, but will not recieve training, IF Soc is not A+. All nobles (B+) get trained (by this sytem) if they have any Psi -which since in CHARGEN, everyone has a Psi rating, means all nobles.

So:
Psi < 9 and Soc <A, no training, Prole status.
Psi 9+ , Soc <B, Soc raised to A ; trained & intendent.
Soc B+, trained, Noble Status.


Sound right ? remember, this is the generation system for Zhodani characters, not necc (and likely not) representative of the whole NPC population.

 

[captainjack23]

We could start waffling about retro-viruses but I think we had best not go there.

VIRUS ! Eeeeeek. Killer AI begone !

And retro-viruses ? Do they make you grow big sideburns and wear Bowling shirts and shoes ?


In case it isn't obvious, yes, probably best not to go there. Besides. That would be detectable, and a retro would be genetics.

 

[Shiloh]

They could breed for psionics...

Only if it's based on genetics. 'S all breeding is: gene propagation. If it's not genes, then it's not the *breeding* per se that's passing on the trait, it's something else.

As far as we primitive screwheads can determine, that leaves it down to environmental effects, if there can be any prediction, however vague, as to the psionic ability of the children of certain couples vs the ability of others.

Of course there could be some alternative method of transmission parent-to-child: a psionic virus, or meme (Pseme?), perhaps or just the way the gametes get jiggled (by the ambient psi-field) when the genitals are (by the parents). If we're investigating the premise that there is no genetic component, that is.

 

[captainjack23]

Perhaps the gene cannot be detected by normal technological means

Sorry, I cannot accept that, we are right back in Metachlorian territory so one might as well say it is magic. Otherwise I think you are right, in fact I rather think this is what you are saying, that it just seems to be random. However that still bothers me, if the characteristic is genetic at all it can be detected and understood, even our TL-7/8 medicine has made great strides in this.

Well, looking at the MT referees companion, it says that it is not influenced by heritability, period. Now, that's taking it as a definitive statement for my TU, and it may not be for YTU -and yes, I agree that an undetectable gene is undesirable as a solution... it does skate close to magic....although not neccessarily Midiclorian magic. Plus, a gene need not be seen (detected) to be identified - after all the basic rules of genetics were developed at tech ...4 ? 3? Mendel and his Peas -simply by actuarial (count) data. So if it was related to lineage, even if we had no idea how, it could be noted. And it clearly isn't.

Now, in T4 (cough!) the psionics institutes book present Psi as nothing more than an unexplained mystery - with a bunch of theories, which range from probabal to crackpot. I think this is the way to go here - we don't know its mechanism for action, nor why some people are Psi powered, and some aren't; but we can see what it does, and do know a fair amount of details about what it isn't -and in this case, it probably is transmitted somehow, but not by normal laws of inheritance /genetics/infection, or whatever. As far as we can tell, it's one of the places where the universe plays with dice (to mangle Einsteins quote) . (sounds like jump drives and jump space, actually)....so, its not magic, just a mystery.

Typically in gaming (these days, anyway) the magic handwaving comes in when too much effort is aimed at such a mystery - in other wards, trying too hard; a mystery can just be that and not be magic - just unexplained, but with observable facts. When one pushes it, you get Midiclorians....and who needs more of that ?

Maybe we should be thinking of it more in terms of intelligence, complicated, - dumb parents can produce a smart child - and visa versa. Though I suspect this will become better understood fairly soon throwing us back on genetics so that is wrong as well.

Good thoughts, but yes, it is and would throw us back on genetics....Neuroscience is clear that there is a significant genetic component to intelligence (of any kind) ; the question is, how much, and how doies it do so. So, one can trace inheritence of intelligence, both high and low -one cannot guarentee it, but one can make a statement about how much more likely it is than a random effect would be. t is bet

They could breed for psionics but that would be unacceptable - no wait, would it be any worse than arranged marriages - and if it meant your children might become nobles you would jump at it. Back to them being happy enough with the system - who is going to run the factories if everyone is psionic?

Good point -that as much as anything the Zhodani system supresses universal Psionics, far more than it encourages it. very interesting idea. Must mull more on this. Thanks !

 

[captainjack23]

They could breed for psionics...

Only if it's based on genetics. 'S all breeding is: gene propagation. If it's not genes, then it's not the *breeding* per se that's passing on the trait, it's something else.

As far as we primitive screwheads can determine, that leaves it down to environmental effects, if there can be any prediction, however vague, as to the psionic ability of the children of certain couples vs the ability of others.

Of course there could be some alternative method of transmission parent-to-child: a psionic virus, or meme (Pseme?), perhaps or just the way the gametes get jiggled (by the ambient psi-field) when the genitals are (by the parents). If we're investigating the premise that there is no genetic component, that is.

True. I note that the phrase in question uses the term "inheritance" rather than Genetics -a much broader term that covers lots of ways in which one predicts the nature of the child from the parents, using lots more than just DNA. Religion is an example - most faiths show a strong inheritance pattern -in short,children tend to be the same faith as their parents.....and ones Religion isn't genetically determined.

(and, no, let's not argue about that, pretty please ? )

 

[tjoneslo]

If you want a non-genetic answer, the idea of a non-corporeal psionic race which exists as a symbiote with humaniti or Vargr. They require the corporeal host to affect the real world, and as a side effect, they give the host a whole set of magical, psionic powers.

If you've read some of the last DGP publications, and Joe Fugate's later explanations on CotI boards, the "baddies at the core" are a highly psionic race, with some undefined physical characteristics. And the description of the Virus (the nasty that destroys the MT Imperium) best fits with a similar kind of non-corporeal life-form that manifests in silicon. And there are the stories of the "creatures" in Jump Space...

So who gets a psionic symbiote is determined by, well the preferences of the symbote. It may be that they breed when humans do, and their genetics determines the powers given to their host.

 

[Infojunky]

We could start waffling about retro-viruses but I think we had best not go there.

VIRUS !

Yes I was serious..... A none heritable way of expressing a trait. Or in another way Psi powers are a cancer caused be a rare virus. While once know one could probably come up with a blood test, it wouldn't show up on a genetic screen.

 

[zanwot]

Thanks Captainjack. I had been under the impression that Psi replaced Soc for Zhodani, just like Charisma with Vargr. Dunno where I got that from.


Anyway, all this discussion, as far as I am concerned, is a good demonstration that Psi should not be a [you have it] / [you don't] thing, as then comes the question of where the switch is... Actually that could make an interesting campaign looking to understand the Ancient's heritage, but the problem is Zhodani would have understood most there is to understand allready if it is possible within TL 15 or so (and that is as far from us in tech as we are from cavemen). Looks like a slippery road to me (*cough* StarWars *cough*).

I continue to believe it is more coherent, and sufficiently vague, to say that Psi is inherent in anybody, though most people have very little. So there is no on/off midichorian (arrrg, pleeeease no midichlorian) whatever switch, psionics are *just* a special use of one's brain capacity, as I feel is the whole point of psionics (or else they really are magic, and therefor do not interest me, allready they are a little too much physics-braking). IE in this view, there is an infinit amount of elements which influence psy, some of which are hereditary (including all possible hereditary vectors), some are not.

 

[captainjack23]

Thanks Captainjack. I had been under the impression that Psi replaced Soc for Zhodani, just like Charisma with Vargr. Dunno where I got that from.

Zhodani PsiDisinformation ?

You're welcome !

 

[captainjack23]

I continue to believe it is more coherent, and sufficiently vague, to say that Psi is inherent in anybody, though most people have very little. So there is no on/off midichorian (arrrg, pleeeease no midichlorian) whatever switch, psionics are *just* a special use of one's brain capacity, as I feel is the whole point of psionics (or else they really are magic, and therefor do not interest me, allready they are a little too much physics-braking). IE in this view, there is an infinit amount of elements which influence psy, some of which are hereditary (including all possible hereditary vectors), some are not.

Well, actually, we are not too far apart on this. I also think that (in campaign terms) there is a coherent explanation; it just isn't known what it is, although molecular genetics and statistics can show it is not hereditary, even at tech 15. Which, when one considers how much the actual effects violate the (understood) laws of how the universe works, is hardly surprising.

It's an interesting idea that in traveller, quite a few elements of their science are very much "we dont know why, but these are proven exceptions to how the universe, we use them even if we don't know how it works": certainly jump drives and psionics fit this model, possibly Gravitics and M drive tech.