Body Armor and Damage to it

[gds73]

Recently ran a short campaign with my 2 sons where they were pre rolled Imperial Marines against some Zhodani Soldiers. Gave both sides some good armor and weapons. During the second battle, One of the enemy was targeted by several of the "good" guys. Rolling good attacks but not enough damage to penetrate the armor sometimes. But numerous hits with 18+ damage. I got to wondering, if there was any kind of rule about wearing the armor down till it fails and becomes useless. I could not find anything in the rule book. So I was thinking about instituting a house rule that when armor takes a total of 10 times its armor rating in damage it fails. What do you all think?

 

[Geir]

Recently ran a short campaign with my 2 sons where they were pre rolled Imperial Marines against some Zhodani Soldiers. Gave both sides some good armor and weapons. During the second battle, One of the enemy was targeted by several of the "good" guys. Rolling good attacks but not enough damage to penetrate the armor sometimes. But numerous hits with 18+ damage. I got to wondering, if there was any kind of rule about wearing the armor down till it fails and becomes useless. I could not find anything in the rule book. So I was thinking about instituting a house rule that when armor takes a total of 10 times its armor rating in damage it fails. What do you all think?

Makes me think that people should also have a Critical Hits table. That would allow for amour degradation as a possible result, and allow for things like 'called shots' to the head to have a better mechanic...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Armour degradation should be a thing, but making simple rules to cover it...

off the top of my head

keep track of total damage that gets through the armour - when the damage that gets through is equal to the AR then the AR is reduced by 1 until it is repaired. Further damage will continue to degrade, but now it takes 1 less...
until the armour is functionally useless.

 

[Arkathan]

Check out Mercenaries Knockdown rule. Unless it is battledress, they should be getting limited action economy.

 

[Geir]

Completely off the top of my head... just an idea and barely proofed (what do you want for 45 minutes of work?). Feel free to ridicule or pick it to death:

Severity
Location	1	2	3	4	5	6
2	Internal Bleeding	Lose -1 hit per minute until treated	Lose -D3 per minute until treated	Lose -1D hit per minute until treated	Lose -1 hit per round until treated	Lose -D3 per round until treated	Lose -1D hit per round until treated
3	Abdomen	Knock down. Target is prone.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -D3 hit per minute until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1D hit per minute until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1 hit per round until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.
4	Groin	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for D3 rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage -1 hit per minute until treated. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage -D3 hit per minute until treated. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.
5	Legs	Knock down. Target is prone.	Knock down. Target is stunned for D3 rounds.	Knock down. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +1D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +3D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.
6	Armour	Armour reduced by -1, breached if not self-sealing	Armour reduced by -D3, breached even if not self-sealing	Armour reduced by -1D, Powered armour resets in 1D rounds	Armour reduced by -2D, Powered armour shuts down until repaired	Armour reduced by -3D,	Armour reduced by -4D and unrepairable
7	Body	Knock down. Target is prone.	+1D damage	+2D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for 1 round.	+3D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds.	+4D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds.	+5D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for 1D rounds.
8	Equipment	Random external equipment disabled for 1D rounds	Random external equipment damaged by attack's hits	Random external equipment destroyed	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 1D damage	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 2D damage	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 3D damage
9	Shoulder	Target is stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 1D rounds	+2D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 2D rounds	+3D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 2D rounds
10	Arms	Target drops carried item in one hand	+1D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand	+1D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm 'stunned' for 1D rounds.	+2D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm 'stunned' for 2D rounds.	+3D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm is unusable until treated.	+3D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm is unusable until treated. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated.
11	Weapon	Weapon is dropped.	Weapon is damaged and unusable until repaired.	Weapon is destroyed.	Weapon is destroyed. +1D damage	Weapon is destroyed. +2D damage	Weapon is destroyed. +3D damage
12	Head	+1D damage to head	+1D damage to face	+2D damage to head. Knock down, target is prone.	+2D damage to head. Target is rendered unconscious.	+2D damage to face Target is rendered unconscious.	+3D damage to face Target is rendered unconscious. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated

• All Severity effects are cumulative, but only once. For instance a Severity 4 critical hit will result in the Effects of Severity 1 ,2, and 3, if they have not already been inflicted, but a Severity 1 on a location that has already suffered Severity 3 would only add the Severity 4 Effect, not the others again.
• Move towards the centre: If a critical location result is not applicable and the result is more than 7, reduce the result until it affects something relevant. If the result is less than 7 increase the result until it is something relevant.
• If a single hit causes Severity greater than 1 to a 'random' item, all results apply to the same item.
• If a location hit by a weapon is unarmoured, damage is recomputed without the benefit of the armour.
• If head armour is open-faced, a hit to face will be considered unarmoured.

 

[WHULorigan]

You can also keep in mind the Effect Rule (Core, p.77) that says anytime someone gets effect 6+ on a weapon attack, they automatically inflict at least 1 point of damage regardless of armour or protection score. That seems like it would be a good threshold for adjudicating some non-trivial damage to armour.

 

[agentwigggles]

The knock down advice is good. The sophont critical hit table is a good idea.
I would strongly advise keeping track of additional hp for armor. It sucks. There have a myrid of system that try to do that and its just tedious.

 

[gds73]

Completely off the top of my head... just an idea and barely proofed (what do you want for 45 minutes of work?). Feel free to ridicule or pick it to death:

Severity
Location	1	2	3	4	5	6
2	Internal Bleeding	Lose -1 hit per minute until treated	Lose -D3 per minute until treated	Lose -1D hit per minute until treated	Lose -1 hit per round until treated	Lose -D3 per round until treated	Lose -1D hit per round until treated
3	Abdomen	Knock down. Target is prone.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -D3 hit per minute until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1D hit per minute until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1 hit per round until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.
4	Groin	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for D3 rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage -1 hit per minute until treated. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage -D3 hit per minute until treated. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.
5	Legs	Knock down. Target is prone.	Knock down. Target is stunned for D3 rounds.	Knock down. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +1D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +3D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.
6	Armour	Armour reduced by -1, breached if not self-sealing	Armour reduced by -D3, breached even if not self-sealing	Armour reduced by -1D, Powered armour resets in 1D rounds	Armour reduced by -2D, Powered armour shuts down until repaired	Armour reduced by -3D,	Armour reduced by -4D and unrepairable
7	Body	Knock down. Target is prone.	+1D damage	+2D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for 1 round.	+3D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds.	+4D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds.	+5D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for 1D rounds.
8	Equipment	Random external equipment disabled for 1D rounds	Random external equipment damaged by attack's hits	Random external equipment destroyed	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 1D damage	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 2D damage	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 3D damage
9	Shoulder	Target is stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 1D rounds	+2D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 2D rounds	+3D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 2D rounds
10	Arms	Target drops carried item in one hand	+1D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand	+1D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm 'stunned' for 1D rounds.	+2D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm 'stunned' for 2D rounds.	+3D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm is unusable until treated.	+3D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm is unusable until treated. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated.
11	Weapon	Weapon is dropped.	Weapon is damaged and unusable until repaired.	Weapon is destroyed.	Weapon is destroyed. +1D damage	Weapon is destroyed. +2D damage	Weapon is destroyed. +3D damage
12	Head	+1D damage to head	+1D damage to face	+2D damage to head. Knock down, target is prone.	+2D damage to head. Target is rendered unconscious.	+2D damage to face Target is rendered unconscious.	+3D damage to face Target is rendered unconscious. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated

• All Severity effects are cumulative, but only once. For instance a Severity 4 critical hit will result in the Effects of Severity 1 ,2, and 3, if they have not already been inflicted, but a Severity 1 on a location that has already suffered Severity 3 would only add the Severity 4 Effect, not the others again.
• Move towards the centre: If a critical location result is not applicable and the result is more than 7, reduce the result until it affects something relevant. If the result is less than 7 increase the result until it is something relevant.
• If a single hit causes Severity greater than 1 to a 'random' item, all results apply to the same item.
• If a location hit by a weapon is unarmoured, damage is recomputed without the benefit of the armour.
• If head armour is open-faced, a hit to face will be considered unarmoured.

That is awesome, especially since you just through it together.

 

[gds73]

Armour degradation should be a thing, but making simple rules to cover it...

off the top of my head

keep track of total damage that gets through the armour - when the damage that gets through is equal to the AR then the AR is reduced by 1 until it is repaired. Further damage will continue to degrade, but now it takes 1 less...
until the armour is functionally useless.

I know, I have played around with old body armor plates for fun, and even a Level 3 plate will become useless after a few rounds of 5.56. and Level 3a can only handle a limited number of 9mm rounds before it fails. Your Idea is pretty good and a little simpler than what I was thinking.

 

[gds73]

You can also keep in mind the Effect Rule (Core, p.77) that says anytime someone gets effect 6+ on a weapon attack, they automatically inflict at least 1 point of damage regardless of armour or protection score. That seems like it would be a good threshold for adjudicating some non-trivial damage to armour.

This might be the simplest way to keep track of it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I forgot about that rule, but then again it is 1 point of damage getting through the armour so one tick on the degredation track.

I need to sit down and playtest this to refine it.

Something else I am currently testing is how to use the same 2d you roll for resolution to also provide information on hit location so that the number of dice rolls remain two, one dice roll to hit and one dice roll for damage. At the moment this requires different coloured dice, or at least two dice you can tell apart - one may be with pips and the other with numbers.

pip die
1- legs
2- torso
3- torso
4- torso
5- arms
6- head

number die
1- left, lower
2- right, lower
3- left, upper
4- right, upper
5- left, centre
6- right, centre

 

[Limpin Legin]

So I was thinking about instituting a house rule that when armor takes a total of 10 times its armor rating in damage it fails. What do you all think?

Trouble is armour is a large volume, and hitting it does not necessitate hitting it in the same location often enough to crack it. But there again, some websites say body armour should be replaced after one bullet hit, or after 5 years.

Completely off the top of my head... just an idea and barely proofed (what do you want for 45 minutes of work?). Feel free to ridicule or pick it to death:

Severity
Location	1	2	3	4	5	6
2	Internal Bleeding	Lose -1 hit per minute until treated	Lose -D3 per minute until treated	Lose -1D hit per minute until treated	Lose -1 hit per round until treated	Lose -D3 per round until treated	Lose -1D hit per round until treated
3	Abdomen	Knock down. Target is prone.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -D3 hit per minute until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1D hit per minute until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone. Lose -1 hit per round until treated and stunned for 2D rounds.
4	Groin	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for D3 rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. Target is prone and stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage -1 hit per minute until treated. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage -D3 hit per minute until treated. Target is stunned for 2D rounds.
5	Legs	Knock down. Target is prone.	Knock down. Target is stunned for D3 rounds.	Knock down. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +1D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +2D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.	Knock down. +3D damage. Target is stunned for 1D rounds.
6	Armour	Armour reduced by -1, breached if not self-sealing	Armour reduced by -D3, breached even if not self-sealing	Armour reduced by -1D, Powered armour resets in 1D rounds	Armour reduced by -2D, Powered armour shuts down until repaired	Armour reduced by -3D,	Armour reduced by -4D and unrepairable
7	Body	Knock down. Target is prone.	+1D damage	+2D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for 1 round.	+3D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds.	+4D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds.	+5D damage. Target knocked down and stunned for 1D rounds.
8	Equipment	Random external equipment disabled for 1D rounds	Random external equipment damaged by attack's hits	Random external equipment destroyed	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 1D damage	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 2D damage	Random external equipment destroyed. Fragments cause 3D damage
9	Shoulder	Target is stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for D3 rounds	+1D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 1D rounds	+2D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 2D rounds	+3D damage. Target is knocked down and stunned for 2D rounds
10	Arms	Target drops carried item in one hand	+1D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand	+1D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm 'stunned' for 1D rounds.	+2D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm 'stunned' for 2D rounds.	+3D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm is unusable until treated.	+3D damage. Target drops carried item in one hand. Arm is unusable until treated. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated.
11	Weapon	Weapon is dropped.	Weapon is damaged and unusable until repaired.	Weapon is destroyed.	Weapon is destroyed. +1D damage	Weapon is destroyed. +2D damage	Weapon is destroyed. +3D damage
12	Head	+1D damage to head	+1D damage to face	+2D damage to head. Knock down, target is prone.	+2D damage to head. Target is rendered unconscious.	+2D damage to face Target is rendered unconscious.	+3D damage to face Target is rendered unconscious. Lose -1 hit per minute until treated

• All Severity effects are cumulative, but only once. For instance a Severity 4 critical hit will result in the Effects of Severity 1 ,2, and 3, if they have not already been inflicted, but a Severity 1 on a location that has already suffered Severity 3 would only add the Severity 4 Effect, not the others again.
• Move towards the centre: If a critical location result is not applicable and the result is more than 7, reduce the result until it affects something relevant. If the result is less than 7 increase the result until it is something relevant.
• If a single hit causes Severity greater than 1 to a 'random' item, all results apply to the same item.
• If a location hit by a weapon is unarmoured, damage is recomputed without the benefit of the armour.
• If head armour is open-faced, a hit to face will be considered unarmoured.

Would have thought a head would be easier target than the diameter of a weapon barrel, unless weapon is seen from side angle.

 

[enpeze2]

Armour degradation should be a thing, but making simple rules to cover it...

off the top of my head

keep track of total damage that gets through the armour - when the damage that gets through is equal to the AR then the AR is reduced by 1 until it is repaired. Further damage will continue to degrade, but now it takes 1 less...
until the armour is functionally useless.

isnt this the shield armor rule from one of the Runequest editions?

 

[Anstett]

The knock down advice is good. The sophont critical hit table is a good idea.
I would strongly advise keeping track of additional hp for armor. It sucks. There have a myrid of system that try to do that and its just tedious.

Sounds like a job for a VTT