Psionics & Genetics

[captainjack23]

So, I've been reading up on the Zhodani recently, and I ran across some interesting info in the Megatravellers GM companion (I think its the title -the one with the calender, all the races, and the best cover of the set -"scout about to meet a watery doom on Ryleh III") According to the entry on Zhodani culture, there is no proven heritability for Psionics -in other words, it is essentially randomly determined in each birth, and has nothing to do with the parents abilities or lack thereof.

...the heck ? Okay, so it doesn't follow genetics - but that isn't per se a deal breaker given that most of the major disciplines each seem to break at least one law of physics,. it's no less likely and somewhat more reasonable than teleportation, so why not have it that way ? Well, for one thing it tends to make the discription of the Zhods governement and society pretty iffy.


Now, I thought I remembered some info specifically discussing the fact that it was at least partly heritable -and that the Zhodani essentially breed for it. But I didn't find it in the Zhodani Module (CT aliens 4).

Any Suggestions as to where it may be ? Or possibly how you can have a hereditary oligarchy based on a trait that can't be concentrated ?
If one can keep it to the GDW/GURPS/MGT body of writing that would be good, but inspirational writingsor Apocryphal are fine, too. ( )

 

[Duroon]

You know my father always told me to never question holes in the plot you can drive a Mack truck through.

 

[Emperor Herdan]

Hmm Let me check my GURPS Alien races 1 (when I get off duty and home..) and maybe the BITS adventure Delta 3 is down.

I'll post later tonight (Pacific) unless someone beats me to it.

Gut feeling is that what you read is "wrong" ala Man will never fly and a man would die if he goes faster than 60 MPH strapped to a chair... but lets see if I can find a documentable retort...

Take care

Emperor Herdan

 

[captainjack23]

You know my father always told me to never question holes in the plot you can drive a Mack truck through.

That is not the way of the traveller, grasshopper....

 

[tjoneslo]

There is a long statement in GT:AR1 (p 135) regarding genetics and psionics. It appears to be a combination of a complex set of recessive genetic traits and pre-natal and early childhood development.

It goes on to say that psi-trained parents, particularly if the mother is psi-trained, the child is more likely to be psionic. But of the mother isn't a psi, it's much rarer that the child will be. Using an artificial womb reduced this even further. The most powerful psis tend to be children of two psionic parents, raised in good environments, and trained from birth. There are exceptions, but extremely rare ones.

 

[daryen]

Ah, but it really doesn't break Zhodani society. It merely means that what is "known" is partial disinformation.

The Zhodani may try to breed for psionics. That doesn't mean that they actually succeed! But, if random chance provides enough positive feedback, so much the better.

As for the overall society, it can still work pretty easily. It just means that intendants are much more important than they appear at first glance. It also means that they likely marry exclusively into the nobility.

This also means that much of the nobility is non-psionic. It means that non-psionic nobility likely must marry psions (either intendants or other nobles) in order to retain position.

But it does explain why the intendants are so important to society. It explains why the Thought Police (sorry, for the proper Zhodani name) actually do scan the nobility as well as the proles.

You know, I never thought about it this way before (I had just assumed that the presence of psionics was hereditary, but the strength was not). But it casts a way different light on Zhodani society. It works, but not exactly as described in Module 4.

 

[captainjack23]

Ah, but it really doesn't break Zhodani society. It merely means that what is "known" is partial disinformation.

The Zhodani may try to breed for psionics. That doesn't mean that they actually succeed! But, if random chance provides enough positive feedback, so much the better.

As for the overall society, it can still work pretty easily. It just means that intendants are much more important than they appear at first glance. It also means that they likely marry exclusively into the nobility.

Yes, good ideas - it may also be that the concept of adoption is much like the roman model with very little percieved difference between "natural" and adopted children. In fact, its quite possible that the concept of actual heirs in Noble families is based on the correct Psionic background rather than actual" bloodline; and are non-psionic children of Nobles simply Proles ?

Which makes for some very interesting ideas about how Zhodani society works...lets see:

Start with the idea that nobility means both more and less than what the imperium defines it as. It means "one with Psionics who has been acknowleged as a member of a noble family."

A noble family is big, possibly more like clans (social groupings as much as interrelated family members), partly because it includes lots of proles (and likely intendants) as relatives, just not noble relatives (Bob is my brother, and Tom is my cousin of nobility") ; and partly to ensure some psionic births.....a line (clan, gens, whatever) in danger of dying out simply adopts either other nobles or the cream of the intenedents.

Membership is equally valid either by family history or marriage, allowing lots of alternate ways to trace relatedness.

Psionic births to nobles automatically become nobles in that family.

Non-psionic births become proles - but still family members (just not Noble family members) this may just be part of the cement that holds the society together. The proles aren't drones or slaves -they are just other members of the family.....just not psionic ones.


Intendents rise up from the mass of non-psionic relatives, and will become nobles by adoption - probably determined by some complicated humungous family tree plus requirements based on psionic discipline ("okay, lets start: he's a fourth cousin of this clan, but this one in which he's a sixth cousin once removed needs a teleporter, which he is, and this clanwhich his mothers father married into needs any psion it can get").

Perhaps, if there is some requirement that adoption as noblility requires a family link, we can new clans are formed from intendents who are so distantly related that they can't be adopted (can't be many after all these years) or intentionally not adopted to start up a new colony; or to co-opt client races if intermarriage isn't working.


As to marriage rules, I'd guess that nobles marry only nobles or intendents, intendents the same, and proles marry only proles. Unusally for an Aristocracy, the adoption and need for psionics to prove nobility allows a surprising amount of mobility. Remember: A Nobles children are no more likely to be noble than any two proles.

Hmmmmm. This was more fun than I thought. Cool. Plus it gets away from the cookie cutter rubbersuit "alien society that wears turbans and is inscrutable" kind of model of Zhodani.....

 

[FreeTrav]

Captain Jack:

If that most excellent text turns out NOT to be in conflict with the Zhodani canon, I hereby plead with you to tighten it up and expand it and submit it to Freelance Traveller for the Lecture Hall and Library section of Kurishdam.

On second thought, I so plead even if it IS in conflict with extant Zhodani canon.

 

[captainjack23]

Captain Jack:

If that most excellent text turns out NOT to be in conflict with the Zhodani canon, I hereby plead with you to tighten it up and expand it and submit it to Freelance Traveller for the Lecture Hall and Library section of Kurishdam.

On second thought, I so plead even if it IS in conflict with extant Zhodani canon.

Let me see what I can do.....and, BTW, thanks !

 

[Emperor Herdan]

There is a long statement in GT:AR1 (p 135) regarding genetics and psionics. It appears to be a combination of a complex set of recessive genetic traits and pre-natal and early childhood development.

It goes on to say that psi-trained parents, particularly if the mother is psi-trained, the child is more likely to be psionic. But of the mother isn't a psi, it's much rarer that the child will be. Using an artificial womb reduced this even further. The most powerful psis tend to be children of two psionic parents, raised in good environments, and trained from birth. There are exceptions, but extremely rare ones.

Aye but I would like to clarify some of your fine points for those who lack access to the book.

Basically a child of two trained PSI's will be psionic "Almost certain to have one or more powers of similar strength to his or her parents"

Psionics seem to have a strong X component "The child of a PSI-trained Mother is likely to develop powers of some sort, often similar to the mothers, regardless of who the father is

Psionic Strength might be seen to have a Y component. "The son of a Psi-trained father and a mundane mother has only a somewhat higher than normal chance of having greater than average potential".

"Artificial gestated children are far less likely to develop powerful abilities even if their genetic parents have them..." I read that as weaker powers rather than none.

So... Psionics are both "Nature" and "Nurture". Being exposed since conception seems to highten sensitivity/power, being tested and trained from an early age allows a better development. Now in the book, it states that while the Zhodani find that "Most useful Citizen-Psis come from happy backgrounds" (GT:AR1 pg 137 bottom right) some of the strongest come from "unhappy backgrounds"...

Percentage of Nobles : Indendants : Proles are roughly 5% : 15% : 80%

Take care

Emperor Herdan

 

[Emperor Herdan]

As to marriage rules, I'd guess that nobles marry only nobles or intendents, intendents the same, and proles marry only proles. Unusally for an Aristocracy, the adoption and need for psionics to prove nobility allows a surprising amount of mobility. Remember: A Nobles children are no more likely to be noble than any two proles.

From GT:AR1 you're correct, Intercaste marrages are not allowed. Any children born from an intercaste affair will have the caste of their mother. However... A Nobles child will always be a noble. There still is the upward mobilty that you did mention, Nobles adopt high strength Indendant children / adults. The book implies this by stating that if it wasn't for adoption, the caste number would decline from its 5 % of population.

Take care

Emperor Herdan

 

[captainjack23]

Hmmmm.

Without actually starting a canon war, it looks like this is one of those places where GT and GDW Traveller diverge. Clearly, as was obligingly posted (thanks!) , Psionics are heritable in GT.
And, in MT, it really does look like they are not.

In addition to the ref companion, I also dug up an interview w/. dave Nielssen (http://www.cgi101.com/~lkw/AskDave.txt), last line editor for Traveller before GDW folded, where he mentions, in a discussion of the intended effects of the empress wave:

"....Traveller had already established that psionic talent is not base[d] on genetics"

Which suggests to me that the non heritability of psionics was the intent, and not just a throwaway line.

So....any other references ? (and thanks for those provided, BTW -especially as I cannot find my GT aliens book covering the Zhodani))

 

[Shiloh]

Having just revised the way Psionic talents are generated, I think it's possible that the transmission of Psionic ability may be entirely independent of genetics. You could explain the mother's contribution by noting that the fetus is kept very close to her for the full term of the pregnancy, and the father's influence can be accounted for by his proximity and caring thoughts for his child. These would perhaps be borne out to some extent by the observation that "tubed" babies had a lesser chance of developing Psionic powers.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that a stronger Psionic mother and father would have a better chance of their "emanations" moulding a more strongly Psionic child. Of course there's no "dynasty" rules in the MGT set yet, so that couldn't be accounted for in the basic rules.

Add in the fact that *anyone* caught early can have a Psionic Strength (PStr), and that more systematic schooling over several years is probably going to give a decent DM on the Talent rolls, and that this effect could have several gradings, of which Nobles get the best and Proles one of the worst, with stronger natural Proles getting Psi-education near to Noble standard and becoming Intendants, and I think you can explain the way Zho mind powers are transmitted without touching genetics.

 

[StephenT]

Or possibly how you can have a hereditary oligarchy based on a trait that can't be concentrated ?

You're asking how the ruling class of an oligarchic and totalitarian society that employs telepathic Thought Police can continue holding on to power, even if the ideological basis of its power is a little suspect? Seriously?

According to CT rules, anyway, everybody is born psionic to a greater or lesser degree. What matters is how early you're tested and trained. So the nobility - even if they have a strength of 2 - are trained to use their psionic abilities from childhood. The proles, even if they have a strength at birth of 8, are not trained. They never use their psionic powers and over time their potential atrophies away.

Since the mechanism for acquiring psionic power is not fully known to anyone, the Zhodani nobility doubtless claim that their sons and daughters are more likely to be psionic, and that's why they're justified in holding on to power. After all, the rare prole with psi powers can become an Intendant, can't they?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Taking out the obvious Pro-Imperial slant of StephenT's comments, I have to agree with him.

EVERYONE is psionic to a degree. The PSI score is there for everyone, after age 18 it degrades by 1 point per term until gone.

Intendents are those Proles with PSI of 10+. Proles with PSI 9- are never trained.

Nobles are always trained (even with a PSI of 2).

BUT, I have to say, I like CaptainJacks ideas for an alternate society. But, to do that, you would have to have a "yes/no" roll to see if you have PSI at all to begin with, which would be a house rule and not pure Traveller.

Personally, I have always used a YES/NO roll first. You have to roll 12 on 2D (players get to roll 10+ instead). If you make that roll, then you can roll for PSI strength.

I once had a PSI 2 character with Telepathy and Teleportation. He could do Life Detection and that was it. While he had the Teleport talent, he wasn't strong enough to use it, even with PSI boosters. Such is life.

 

[zanwot]

To further build on StephenT and RTT's points, I would add that intendants can become noble with the psionic games or whatever they are called, so on a regular basis some of the most psionically talented intendants become noble.

And on a non OTU (I think) but fairly pragmatic and reasonable level, don't forget that in societies where nobility has power there must be a way to limit the number of nobles amongst the children of nobles. In medieval earth that meant that the firstborn son got the title, the others got either a minor title or a career in the military of the clergy, both of those last ones without title and conveniently not the best way to have children...
I don't think it would be too much of a stretch, especially given Zodany society, to imagine that it could be quite the standard procedure that the most psionically gifted of a nobles children would be the one to inherit, the others becoming lesser nobles or intendants.

On a personnal note, I would expect psionic potential to be an inextricable (and fondamentally uncomprehensible) mix of genetics, environmental factors and *pure randomness*. A bit like most known psychological traits for which it is difficult to understand if they are genetic or not (please no debate, my only point is that it is debatable). IE zodany nobles would have a tendency to have more gifted children than the average (this being a tendency). Add a lot of young training (traditionnal but maybe also technological thanks to their tech/psi interfaces), plus selection (my earlyer point), and you can start to justify that psi level of 12+ zodan nobles are supposed to have on psionics (IIRC, no?).

 

[tjoneslo]

According to CT rules, anyway, everybody is born psionic to a greater or lesser degree. What matters is how early you're tested and trained. So the nobility - even if they have a strength of 2 - are trained to use their psionic abilities from childhood. The proles, even if they have a strength at birth of 8, are not trained. They never use their psionic powers and over time their potential atrophies away.

I would claim that any attempt to use the character generation process as justification for a detailed analysis of how the Traveller universe works is wrong. The characters are, by definition, unusual and out of the ordinary. How far out of the ordinary is an interesting question. Chris Thrash wrote a paper on how unusual people like your characters would would be. The conclusion is less than one in 1,800 Imperial residents, or about 0.056%.

 

[zanwot]

I would claim that any attempt to use the character generation process as justification for a detailed analysis of how the Traveller universe works is wrong.

that is a valid point, but not any more valid than the opposit one. IE game rules are a "simulation", more or less well simulating but also taking account of the special position of players (ie game element).
But if the rules reinforce the universe's coherence, one can only suppose that they do accuratly simulate rather than describe special PC (player) rules.

The characters are, by definition, unusual and out of the ordinary. How far out of the ordinary is an interesting question. Chris Thrash wrote a paper on how unusual people like your characters would would be. The conclusion is less than one in 1,800 Imperial residents, or about 0.056%.

Well actually one of the points of Traveller is that PCs are supposed to be normal people in abnormal situations, and I would add that that study you quote reinforces that, as it does not count the amount of *superhumans* in the galaxy but the amount of people who happen to travel from world to world on a regular basis.

 

[tjoneslo]

that is a valid point, but not any more valid than the opposit one. IE game rules are a "simulation", more or less well simulating but also taking account of the special position of players (ie game element).
But if the rules reinforce the universe's coherence, one can only suppose that they do accuratly simulate rather than describe special PC (player) rules.

The game rules do not include a shoe saleman career nor any other description of a shoe saleman. Does this mean that there is no such thing as a shoe salesman in the OTU, or that the rules are a (necessarily) incomplete simulation?

My point was, and I think you got that, was the character generation rules (including the psionics rules) reflect what anyone could do, not what everyone does do. That's where the breakdown occurs.

 

[zanwot]

My point was, and I think you got that, was the character generation rules (including the psionics rules) reflect what anyone could do, not what everyone does do. That's where the breakdown occurs.

Well indeed I did get your point, and agree with your shoemaker example.
Anyway, I think you get my point too, so everybody's happy. Basically the rules can give some indication but are not a sufficient "proof".