I'm definitely fond of the LASH system, but I would think that collectors would make the advantages of using it diminish rather than increase. It seems to me the main advantage of LASH in space is that you'd quickly exchange your sublight freightcars for new ones, tank up, and go in a day or two. But, given we know very little about the practicalities of any of this tech, it could work out as you suggest. Certainly some fun adventure possibilities in that methodology.
Problematic canonish technology
- Thread starter Shardan13
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Tee Five ensures wear and tear of collectors, and you can calculate if it's worth it in a hundred trips, compared to the near immortality of the jump drive, well, abundance of hydrogen at one hundred fifty starbux a tonne.
alex_greene
Guest
Jump drives require maintenance, or you get Misjumps. Jump drives aren't immortal either.
Ships of all kinds require some form of maintenance. All those adventures where the Travellers have to visit the site of a dead starship with its nose buried in the ground. Starships seem to litter the Traveller universe like plastic bags in the Pacific.
If there is some insurmountable reason why the entire collector canopy has to be replaced every 4 years (at half the cost of the original Collector system), that does significantly change the calculation. T5 also says that Tech 14 Collectors can only hold enough power for a Jump 1. And Tech 15 for a Jump 2 and so on. Collectors under the T5 rules would be a lot more problematic. They still would be useless for the military. The commercial case gets a lot trickier, too. A Collector on a large freighter would still be profitable, but the replacement costs of the canopy would eat half that profit. And the lack of high jump capability undermines the best use case significantly, especially on the frontiers where T14/T15 starports to build/replace the collectors are few and far between. Probably only get used in high tech clusters or by exploration ships that don't want to rely on jumping only to systems with fuel sources.
Btw, the Annic Nova is at least a Tech 16 ship since it has Jump 3 capability in T5. But then the collectors on the Annic Nova can replace the power plant, which MgT and T5 ones can't. Annic Nova Collectors also have recharge rates based on how close they are to the nearest star and how bright it is, which doesn't appear to be a feature of MgT or T5 Collectors.
But, then T5 is pretty substantially different from other Traveller rules in general. For example, the rules for fuel scoops in T5 are substantially different than in Mongoose Traveller. Fuel Scoops + Fuel Purifier in T5 can purify 100 tons of gas per hour with a 1 Ton purifier. Compared to MgT's 20 tons of fuel per day per ton of purifier. But T5 also requires a different kind of intake system if using water or ice as the unrefined source...
It also has weird things like needing transfer pumps to move fuel from a drop tank to the power plant, though there is no such requirement for doing so with on board fuel tankage.
Btw, the Annic Nova is at least a Tech 16 ship since it has Jump 3 capability in T5. But then the collectors on the Annic Nova can replace the power plant, which MgT and T5 ones can't. Annic Nova Collectors also have recharge rates based on how close they are to the nearest star and how bright it is, which doesn't appear to be a feature of MgT or T5 Collectors.
But, then T5 is pretty substantially different from other Traveller rules in general. For example, the rules for fuel scoops in T5 are substantially different than in Mongoose Traveller. Fuel Scoops + Fuel Purifier in T5 can purify 100 tons of gas per hour with a 1 Ton purifier. Compared to MgT's 20 tons of fuel per day per ton of purifier. But T5 also requires a different kind of intake system if using water or ice as the unrefined source...
It also has weird things like needing transfer pumps to move fuel from a drop tank to the power plant, though there is no such requirement for doing so with on board fuel tankage.
Regarding using it in "dock", they would absolutely design starports to have docking arrangements that allow collectors to be deployed, even if that meant big sea urchin designs. Though without actual data, the optimum design isn't clear.
I disagree but that is fine. To me this sounds like a player trying to get around an intentional limitation of the system. OTOH it could be just me setting limitations for the drive that are not there. The wording is grey.
alex_greene
Guest
Games designers like to nerf their products, if they have the agenda of forcing players to stick to their preferred drive systems.If there is some insurmountable reason why the entire collector canopy has to be replaced every 4 years (at half the cost of the original Collector system), that does significantly change the calculation. T5 also says that Tech 14 Collectors can only hold enough power for a Jump 1. And Tech 15 for a Jump 2 and so on. Collectors under the T5 rules would be a lot more problematic. They still would be useless for the military. The commercial case gets a lot trickier, too. A Collector on a large freighter would still be profitable, but the replacement costs of the canopy would eat half that profit. And the lack of high jump capability undermines the best use case significantly, especially on the frontiers where T14/T15 starports to build/replace the collectors are few and far between. Probably only get used in high tech clusters or by exploration ships that don't want to rely on jumping only to systems with fuel sources.
Btw, the Annic Nova is at least a Tech 16 ship since it has Jump 3 capability in T5. But then the collectors on the Annic Nova can replace the power plant, which MgT and T5 ones can't. Annic Nova Collectors also have recharge rates based on how close they are to the nearest star and how bright it is, which doesn't appear to be a feature of MgT or T5 Collectors.
But, then T5 is pretty substantially different from other Traveller rules in general. For example, the rules for fuel scoops in T5 are substantially different than in Mongoose Traveller. Fuel Scoops + Fuel Purifier in T5 can purify 100 tons of gas per hour with a 1 Ton purifier. Compared to MgT's 20 tons of fuel per day per ton of purifier. But T5 also requires a different kind of intake system if using water or ice as the unrefined source...
It also has weird things like needing transfer pumps to move fuel from a drop tank to the power plant, though there is no such requirement for doing so with on board fuel tankage.
Remember rule zero. Also, between T5 and Mongoose T2, remember that this is the Mongoose board - so Mongoose High Guard kerbstomps T5.
yeah, if its unknown tech it would be confiscated just like Ancients devices. And if its known tech that outperforms existing tech (which it does compared to T5 rules), then likely the same thing would happen. Of course, just keeping in maintained under the Annic Nova rules would probably get PCs to turn it in for a reward...
Dunno about any agenda. The rest of this is true, but so what? Anyone can do whatever they want at their table. That's never been disputed.
This discussion was, as far as I am aware, about publishing tech that is cool, but not following through with the implications of said tech. Part of the problem, of course, is that people conflate Traveller and the Third Imperium setting. Not everything in the Traveller rules (Mongoose or T5) fits into the Third Imperium setting. Having rules for personal energy shields so you can have them in a custom setting? Great! Having said rules and saying they exist in the Third Imperium setting while having absolutely no effect on anything? Not great.
Collectors are a pretty cool way to do things, but the Mongoose version would replace standard fueling in non military ships as fast as folks could roll them out. IMHO. And given that Tech 14 has been around a long time, I think we'd see that impact if they were active in the Third Imperium setting. The Annic Nova version of Collectors are both better and worse than the Mongoose version, though on balance their impact would be more limited. The T5 version are significantly worse than either of the other versions and be even more limited. But all three versions would still be a noticeable part of the setting if available.
alex_greene
Guest
The problem being that it'd be just like the Travellers skipping in a ship and running off without paying the mortgage. The Ref can throw in a story about them being chased by a repo team in one adventure, to spice things up, but otherwise they'll just let the Traveller have the ship and run with it.
Just because logically the characters have to hand over the ship it doesn't mean they have to do it. If it doesn't fly by the players, the ref should file it under "never going to happen."
It specifically says they do not work "on a ship expending thrust." It doesn't say stationary or not connected to another vessel. Arguably, that allows building up a movement vector and then turning off the drive and continuing on the current vector while recharging. I dunno that I'd interpret it that way. It makes life more complicated, if nothing else. But it doesn't seem like there's any reason a ship docked externally couldn't have its collector array out. Given the clear advantages, ships and ports would be built in such a way to make that feasible.
Or if it absolutely isn't, it would just push LASH or deep space UNREP systems to the forefront.
That's true of everything about the setting. Some players would rather their characters die than get captured. If you have those kinds of players, you don't run any of the dozen or so published scenarios that involve PCs likely being captured. If your players don't enjoy space battles, you probably don't run any. If they really like being pirates, you make piracy feasible. If you, as the DM, create a macguffin that would be a huge mess if the PCs kept, then you either have a reward they'd rather have in exchange for giving it up or you don't put it in the game in the first place.
That is true of every game, but we have to have some standard to discuss the RAW. Compared to some discords I am for other games we are practically homogeneous.
All the tech we are discussing now is optional and some would include it and some would not. We seem to have two conversations going on.
"Would I include technology X in my universe?" and "Would technology X wreck the balance of power? If yes how and why?"
I lean towards the fact that anything TL14+ harder to acquire, harder to maintain, and is more expensive. The Traveller map only has about 200 TL14+ worlds total, maybe 30 official worlds. The map only has a bit less than 100 TL 15+ worlds total and only a dozen official. That is not a large number of worlds to build enough ships to effect the overall universe. These factors put a certain level of limitation on the impact IMO but others disagree. It is an interesting debate though.
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alex_greene
Guest
Or you decide that they keep it, and it isn't such a hot mess because nobody actually cares about their fancy weird drive. t's a big universe, and there's all kinds of weird shenanigans and that's even before the aliens turn up.
It specifically says "It takes a week of normal space travel" in my opinion being docked in a starport is not travel.
That is how I interpret it, though I presume you could periodically change your vector.
I wouldn't say 'wreck the balance of power'. More
lol. it also says you can't expend thrust. I don't consider not moving 500m off the side of space station "travel" in a way that being attached to said station externally isn't. Unless the actual intention is that you accelerate, turn off the M-Drive, and cruise around to scoop up exotic particles.
alex_greene
Guest
It's the same issue as psionics. They exist in the setting, and there's a lot of player hate for it, and there's a whole adventure out there where there are these space karens who hate psions so much that they have created a special unit to hunt them down, armed with active anti-psi that hurts psions and neutralises their powers and aaarrghh haate.
They never meet the Traveller psions. As the ref, it's never going to happen.
And if they did, the Traveller psions would beat them up without breaking a sweat. Because the story is about them. Not your NPCs.
Same goes for all this problematic tech. If it's on your characters' ship, let it be there - because it's about your Travellers. The adventures are centered about those people. Not the "oh, this will have the Zhodani Jump straight to Capital" "oh, this will destroy trade, shouldn't be allowed."
Travellers first. Setting a long way second.
They never meet the Traveller psions. As the ref, it's never going to happen.
And if they did, the Traveller psions would beat them up without breaking a sweat. Because the story is about them. Not your NPCs.
Same goes for all this problematic tech. If it's on your characters' ship, let it be there - because it's about your Travellers. The adventures are centered about those people. Not the "oh, this will have the Zhodani Jump straight to Capital" "oh, this will destroy trade, shouldn't be allowed."
Travellers first. Setting a long way second.
alex_greene
Guest
I was thinking that the ship can park a couple of million klicks from the system's mainworld, probably in a Lagrange point in the planet's orbit, and just soak up the rays while the Travellers shuttle back and forth in a 200 ton trader with no Jump and a hell of a lot of cargo space.I wouldn't say 'wreck the balance of power'. More
lol. it also says you can't expend thrust. I don't consider not moving 500m off the side of space station "travel" in a way that being attached to said station externally isn't. Unless the actual intention is that you accelerate, turn off the M-Drive, and cruise around to scoop up exotic particles.
I am well aware that you can do whatever you want in your home campaign. My campaign is not canon either. But there's no discussion to be had about peoples' personal campaigns. Do whatever works for you. Let your players have FGMPs if you want. Restrict everyone to Tech 10. I don't care. None of that has any bearing on how the setting says it works.
As for the LASH/UNREP system of freighthauling, I think that works pretty well in the setting as written even without Collectors. Though a lot of the efficiency would diminish if you could have high jump ships without the huge fuel demand. IMHO, the main utility would be in your large ship being able to skip visits to all the podunk worlds along the way to its real destination. Jump in, swap lighters/refuel from a tanker, jump out a day or so later.
But, as I said in that thread on trade, there's lots of viable paradigms for how trade works even limited to the context of the Third Imperium setting. What you are talking about would probably work fine. Especially if highports are rare. Which seems to be the case in the Third Imperium setting.
As for the LASH/UNREP system of freighthauling, I think that works pretty well in the setting as written even without Collectors. Though a lot of the efficiency would diminish if you could have high jump ships without the huge fuel demand. IMHO, the main utility would be in your large ship being able to skip visits to all the podunk worlds along the way to its real destination. Jump in, swap lighters/refuel from a tanker, jump out a day or so later.
But, as I said in that thread on trade, there's lots of viable paradigms for how trade works even limited to the context of the Third Imperium setting. What you are talking about would probably work fine. Especially if highports are rare. Which seems to be the case in the Third Imperium setting.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Grill the steak rare, players will appreciate it more.
