For When Your Type P Corsair Just Isn't P Enough

Yes? How does that have anything to do with what I said?

All I said is that we don't have any information on how this actually works or to what extent that it is commonplace. The referee has to decide that.

We have no common ground for making decisions because we don't know anything about the economics. We don't know how much trade actually happens. We don't know how cost effective space warehouses are relative to ships having cargo landers. We rarely know anything about a system except its mainworld, so we don't know how interplanetary trade and infrastructure looks.

That's probably all to the good. Most people probably don't care and the people who do care probably have widely different preferences on that. Bad news for people who want to be told exactly how it works.

You an imagine that highports have long "piers" for large ships to dock to that grav trucks roll down the middle of and get containers loaded onto them and then they drive off the end of the "pier" and go down to the planet. You can imagine space warehousing is cheap and there's thousands and thousands of tons of storage for held cargo waiting to be tranferred to a new ship or shuttle, the way there is at a maritime port. You can imagine that highport space is too valuable for that and ships are expected to transfer cargo via UNREP type systems or carry their own landers and not deal directly with the port except for repairs and the like.

You can imagine that the high port is one structure or dozens of structures with dedicated purposes. You can imagine that ships jump directly to the asteroid belt to pick up cargos of ore at stations there or that the ore is shipped to the highport and loaded there. You can invent rationales for why class A & B ports don't have to have highports and all and how those worlds handle shipping. Or you can ignore that aspect of the mechanics and always have a highport for stations of that caliber.

The fact remains that MgT2e's CRB/High Guard does not address how this stuff works. As a result, there are people in this thread who think docking clamps include airlocks and power connects and people who don't, just as one example.

I certainly don't think that the core rules need to go into all of this and especially not into more complexity like differences between liquid cargo, breakbulk, containerized shipping, etc. But it would be nice if the features in High Guard better described how some of these features, so that if the players want to use them, the ref isn't forced to invent all the 'how does it work' stuff.
 
Sorry. It was in the Small Craft Catalog. It's relevant because it tells what it does and how common it is. If you don't choose to use it, that's fine, but it's a listed craft and admirably suits what we were talking about. Charted Space doesn't speak to it one way or the other, so there's no reason it shouldn't be in use as pods make economic sense.
Oh, I definitely have all kinds of things like this in my campaign. Though that one would be pretty slow with a 30 ton pod, since it is only Thrust 2 at 10 tons. I don't know that I agree with the implication that standard containers are spaceworthy on their own, but I suppose the existence of cargo nets already suggests that.
 
Yes? How does that have anything to do with what I said?

All I said is that we don't have any information on how this actually works or to what extent that it is commonplace. The referee has to decide that.

We have no common ground for making decisions because we don't know anything about the economics. We don't know how much trade actually happens. We don't know how cost effective space warehouses are relative to ships having cargo landers. We rarely know anything about a system except its mainworld, so we don't know how interplanetary trade and infrastructure looks.

That's probably all to the good. Most people probably don't care and the people who do care probably have widely different preferences on that. Bad news for people who want to be told exactly how it works.

You an imagine that highports have long "piers" for large ships to dock to that grav trucks roll down the middle of and get containers loaded onto them and then they drive off the end of the "pier" and go down to the planet. You can imagine space warehousing is cheap and there's thousands and thousands of tons of storage for held cargo waiting to be tranferred to a new ship or shuttle, the way there is at a maritime port. You can imagine that highport space is too valuable for that and ships are expected to transfer cargo via UNREP type systems or carry their own landers and not deal directly with the port except for repairs and the like.

You can imagine that the high port is one structure or dozens of structures with dedicated purposes. You can imagine that ships jump directly to the asteroid belt to pick up cargos of ore at stations there or that the ore is shipped to the highport and loaded there. You can invent rationales for why class A & B ports don't have to have highports and all and how those worlds handle shipping. Or you can ignore that aspect of the mechanics and always have a highport for stations of that caliber.

The fact remains that MgT2e's CRB/High Guard does not address how this stuff works. As a result, there are people in this thread who think docking clamps include airlocks and power connects and people who don't, just as one example.

I certainly don't think that the core rules need to go into all of this and especially not into more complexity like differences between liquid cargo, breakbulk, containerized shipping, etc. But it would be nice if the features in High Guard better described how some of these features, so that if the players want to use them, the ref isn't forced to invent all the 'how does it work' stuff.
To each their own. Rather than putting it all off because the core rules don't address it, like you say, we all have to guess. Not optimal, but we can make guesses based on the technology. If it would make economic sense to do something, someone will. If enough people do, there will be infrastructure to support them. We all have to extrapolate as we have a vague setting, and I'd rather imagine what is possible and probable and do that.
 
The Utility Pod was too weak to move a 30-ton pod, so I made a bigger one that can manage 1 G fully loaded and use the grappling arm on it.1736901683454.png
 
I get the impression you think I am objecting to these things. I'm trying to say that they don't exist in a vaccuum. Those things only work if you have other things in place. If you want to use external cargo, you need tugs. You need to decide about whether pods need power.

Not "You can't have pods" or "Pods can't exist". Rather "If you want this, you also should have that".

Or, you can just handwave it. Which is fine if your players accept that :)
 
I get the impression you think I am objecting to these things. I'm trying to say that they don't exist in a vaccuum. Those things only work if you have other things in place. If you want to use external cargo, you need tugs. You need to decide about whether pods need power.

Not "You can't have pods" or "Pods can't exist". Rather "If you want this, you also should have that".

Or, you can just handwave it. Which is fine if your players accept that :)
I agree that the infrastructure has to exists. I don't think anyone disputes that. I certainly don't.
 
It doesn't address the specifics so that your universe can operate the way you want it to.
Since I'm not running a tech restricted campaign (or rather the tech restriction is 15) it is easier to say yes to any available tech that the players want to use, that is not restricted or a war crime. I let them describe how they want to use the tech and then guide them back into the rules for what they are trying to do. Yes and or Yes but... unless its bat guano crazy.
This lets the players imaginations participate in universe building.
Transferring cargo? That's just part of the docking fee - even if you never actually docked. Or whatever you and your players are comfortable with.
 
Maybe what I'm writing and what I think I'm saying isn't clear. I like these discussions because it brings out options and I like to explore what those options mean. Lots of things exist in High Guard that are under used.

What does it mean for how your systems look if external cargo pods are commonplace? Because that is different than if they are not. You can, of course, just not care. But I do think it matters. And I think it adds to adventure possibilities.

If they want to mess with/steal a specific piece of cargo, do they have to infiltrate the highport warehouse? Or is it going to be taken around by a tug? Or a grav truck? Or a lander directly from the megafreighter?

All that infrastructure will affect the environment and the players options even if they are not the ones who care about external cargo clamps or whatever.

Some other things I just find difficult to imagine aren't standard if they work the way they are described. Like Fuel/Cargo containers. Any merchant above J1 would likely benefit from such. A1000 ton J2 ship spends 205 tons of space to be able to switch 100 tons from fuel to cargo depending on whether they are making a J1 or J2 jump. And gains the ability to ship liquid cargo.
 
Ships with clamps become unstreamlined when the clamps are in use. This makes even transiting the atmosphere a challenge. That is why use cargo launches rather than just pods as they can land independently and once detached the mother ship can land without difficulties. It also allows more flexibility as the independent ships can take their own paths.

External Cargo Mounts cannot be used on streamlined ships and make landings Difficult rather than Routine. As you can at best be partially streamlined you are at -2 as well making the difficulty (but at least this is only for the landing). You might be able to land safely but you risk loosing a significant portion of your cargo if you don't. Not a great option.

Jump Nets make the ship un-streamlined which is a Bad Thing.

As you already noted, the solution is to unload in space, and if needed use a craft with internal cargo to land it, including the main ship itself.

I had a modified seeker that carries 5 small clamps. It can carry 5 piggybacked launches. There were 3 staterooms and 27 tons cargo on the mothership. The plan was for the ship to jump in with launches attached, they would detach and make their own way to the various spaceports in the system to conduct trade while the main ship refuelled at the starport. Everyone would meet up in orbit, recombine and jump again. Depending on the configuration of the launch you could get up to 97 tons cargo in a "100 ton" ship.

LBB2 noted:
LBB2'77, p8:
INCIDENTALS
_ _ Goods taken on in orbit are delivered when delivered in orbit around the destination. Goods taken on a planetary surface are delivered when off-loaded on the planetary surface of the destination. Similar conditions apply to mail and passengers.
_ _ Shuttles: Where necessary, shuttles operate from planetary surface to orbit and return. The typical cost of shuttle service is 1/100 of the normal interstellar freight or passage cost. Thus, cargo is shipped to orbit by shuttle, or dropped to planetary surface from orbit by shuttle at a cost of CR 10 per ton.
 
Maybe what I'm writing and what I think I'm saying isn't clear. I like these discussions because it brings out options and I like to explore what those options mean. Lots of things exist in High Guard that are under used.

What does it mean for how your systems look if external cargo pods are commonplace? Because that is different than if they are not. You can, of course, just not care. But I do think it matters. And I think it adds to adventure possibilities.

If they want to mess with/steal a specific piece of cargo, do they have to infiltrate the highport warehouse? Or is it going to be taken around by a tug? Or a grav truck? Or a lander directly from the megafreighter?

All that infrastructure will affect the environment and the players options even if they are not the ones who care about external cargo clamps or whatever.

Some other things I just find difficult to imagine aren't standard if they work the way they are described. Like Fuel/Cargo containers. Any merchant above J1 would likely benefit from such. A1000 ton J2 ship spends 205 tons of space to be able to switch 100 tons from fuel to cargo depending on whether they are making a J1 or J2 jump. And gains the ability to ship liquid cargo.
Agreed.
 
Yep, it's magic and that is where I think it is assumed to flow from.
"Inertial compensation" isn't and has never been any more magic than artificial gravity:
LBB5'79, p17:
Tech level requirements for maneuver drives are imposed to cover the grav-plates integral to most ship decks which allow high-G maneuvers while the interior G-fields remain normal.
"Inertial compensation" is just artificial gravity in another direction, opposed to the perceived inertial acceleration.

Skärmavbild 2025-01-15 kl. 02.20.png

Whether you pay for as a part of the "Hull" system (artificial gravity) or "M-drive" system (inertial compensation), it's the same technology.
 
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And to wrap up the Utility Pods, the Type III 231-Ton Utility Pod can handle all Type III pods. Bigger utility pods would likely be the province of corporations that deal with Type IV pods (or Type V) or the military.1736904906701.png
 
All I said is that we don't have any information on how this actually works or to what extent that it is commonplace. The referee has to decide that.
Agreed, I've always assumed it's dependent on the level of development, generally described by the starport level. If it's an A port, you definitely have the infrastructure, if it's an "E" port you don't...

For plot purposes the Referee can override anything, of course.


The fact remains that MgT2e's CRB/High Guard does not address how this stuff works. As a result, there are people in this thread who think docking clamps include airlocks and power connects and people who don't, just as one example.

I certainly don't think that the core rules need to go into all of this and especially not into more complexity like differences between liquid cargo, breakbulk, containerized shipping, etc. But it would be nice if the features in High Guard better described how some of these features, so that if the players want to use them, the ref isn't forced to invent all the 'how does it work' stuff.
Power couplings are not described, airlocks are...

I would certainly not assume you get a free 2 Dt airlock included with a 1 Dt docking clamp.
One the other hand, a hatch is a no cost option.

No system has ever been perfect, describing everything in excruciating detail, Mongoose certainly doesn't even try. FF&S failed for a reason, however much nerds like me liked it.
 
I like it. Flight Operations software should be a thing. You should add a user definable software slot for things like this.
It is a thing. I just don't remember what book it's in. But it is in the sheet because someone showed me the rule on it.
 
FF&S is more complicated than I would want to be using to actually build my own ships. But I liked that it made it clear how things worked. I tended to use it more as a basis for flavor text than building ships :D Just like I use the world builder's handbook primarily to make things I want to have conform more or less to science rather than actually grind out albedo and what not.
 
It is a thing. I just don't remember what book it's in. But it is in the sheet because someone showed me the rule on it.
I see it now. It's under the other software, so I missed it. The fan-created index says it's in Book 4: Deep Space Exploration Handbook (The Great Rift).
 
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