Problematic canonish technology

[alex_greene]

There's lots of cool alternate tech. You can use Traveller to play a wide range of sci fi styles. The idea that Traveller is a game about the OTU is pernicious, imho. I've used Traveller for "Earth 2" type games where there were it was sleeper ships and no going back type colony worlds. I could easily see using the Naval Campaign guidelines to do a Star Trek-ish game, though that's not my cup of tea so I haven't.

And you have the Zimm drive in Earth/Clement sector games, Mindjammer's planing engines in that Traveller alternate setting, and 2300's stutterwarp just talking about published worlds that use the Traveller rules (or Cepheus, which is close enough as to no difference). Several of those games don't use fuel or change how fuel is used in major ways.

None of that is a problem at all. I would love *rulebooks* that covered alternate techs for other kinds of settings. But if you are writing for the Third Imperium setting (ie a sector book or other setting book, not a general Traveller rule book), write the stuff that fits that setting. Just like if you are publishing a Conan setting, you don't have laser pistols. Not because barbarians and laser pistols don't make a cool world, but because it doesn't make a Conan world.

It's like Star Trek, around the time that humans build the first Warp 5 ship. There was an entire series built around the premise that NX-01 was the first ship to reach that speed, and then there were beings whose warp drives were capable of reaching Warp 7.
So eventually, the humans caught up with those beings, and then surpassed their achievements.
Remember that the Age of Sail eventually came to an end, when people began putting steam engines into their ships and fitted them with iron hulls. Once they could do without sails, the new ships came to dominate the seven seas. By the time diesel replaced steam, sail-powered ships were already a memory.
1105 could be the first year the Imperium reaches the pinnacle of technology - the Hop drive. In the space of one generation, this will transform the entire Imperium, and the characters are among the first humans to own a ship capable of, not Hop-1, but Hop-2. And then they come across an alien ship with a Skip-3 drive ...
In other words, once you have the OTU in your hands, you can do whatever the hell you like with it. You can take the OTU in directions Marc W Miller and FFE couldn't even begin to imagine. There is no Imperium Canon authority - Traveller does not answer to the Vatican. Or to CoTI, or to lone grognards halfway across the world.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, Alex. You keep repeatedly making this point, which not one person I have ever seen has disagreed with. Referees and publishers are two different things.

All I want is that the *publishers* (ie Mongoose) distinguish between the setting material (which should be consistent with the existing paradigm) and the rulebooks (which do not need to be setting specific, as long as that is quite clear. Since many people confuse the game for the setting). And if Mongoose decides to publish setting changing techs within the setting specific books, that they actually DO THE WORK and show the effects of these major new techs. Both in the book that they introduce them and in subsequent books that would be affected by it. And not just drop them in one paragraph somewhere and ignore them ever after.

If you do not agree that there is a difference between what authors of official sourcebooks can do and what referees can do in their own games, then that's fine too. We will know going forward that there is no common basis for discussion, because we will never be talking about the same things.

 

[alex_greene]

All I want is that the *publishers* (ie Mongoose) distinguish between the setting material (which should be consistent with the existing paradigm) and the rulebooks (which do not need to be setting specific, as long as that is quite clear. Since many people confuse the game for the setting). And if Mongoose decides to publish setting changing techs within the setting specific books, that they actually DO THE WORK and show the effects of these major new techs.

They don't have to. That's the referee's and the players' job.
Books like High Guard and the Central Supply Catalogue just make the rules available, if the ref decides to include the tech in their game for the player characters. Here's the thing: you don't have to use any of the fancy tech in these books.
But you don't get to try to ban other referees from using them, if you don't want to use them in your OTU.
And no, you don't get to say that the other referee's game is not in the OTU either. There is no Canon Police. Never has been.
And you don't get to call yourself one either.
One fine day, we're all going to be mulch, and Traveller will carry on in the hands of whole new generations of gamers. They can take the game anywhere they like. Skip drives making war and trade obsolete; the end of the Traveller Age of Sail; Charted Space just going up in flames; it'll all be the OTU, and nobody from this generation will have a say.
Hells, we can even get Mongoose to come up with a whole new OTU, licensed and authorised by FFE. Multiple OTUs, each one totally different from all the rest. And all the fancy tech in HG and CSC will be available for any Traveller gamer to use in those OTU.
As long as there's an interest, and players can enjoy games where they can be a part of something huge, or keep making strange new discoveries, Traveller will never die.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You keep conflating Traveller as a set of rules to run any sci fi game I can imagine with the Third Imperium Setting for Traveller.
If Mongoose wants a setting where anything goes then they can write one, and certainly every single referee is free to do what they wish with their game.
But, if you write a rules suplement, setting supplement or advanture set within the Third Imperium then you are bound by what the setting allows. Mongoose has very slowly introduced elements that do not fit the setting as described, hence the term ATU for both the Mongoose 3I and the GT 3I.

 

[Vormaerin]

Right, you are just going to ignore what I write and talk about imaginary things no one said, ever. The crustiest old COTI grognard you could ever find wouldn't care what anyone else does at their table.

High Guard and Central Supply Catalogue are RULEBOOKS. Which I said I have no problem with them including a wide range of options in. Rulebooks are not setting specific. Traveller and The Third Imperium ARE NOT THE SAME THING. As I have repeatedly said. My problem is having books like "The Third Imperium" having technology in them that significantly changes the setting and then Mongoose just ignoring that they did that like it never happened. Personal Energy Shields in the CSC? Sure, great. That's just a Traveller rulebook. Personal Energy Shields in The Third Imperium? That means they are part of the setting. If they want to do that, then IMHO they better actually reflect that in stuff they publish going forward.

I have never, ever said anything about banning anyone from using them. I have never said anything about whether someone's game is in the OTU, whatever that means. No one has talked about canon police except you. Your post is one giant strawman refuting arguments that have never been made in this thread or any thread I've read on this forum.

Unlike Sigtrygg, I don't care of Mongoose goes the way of the Lorenverse and publishes its own ATU, as long as they actually do the work involved in showing the actual changes. And when they release Pioneer, they can use warp drive as the default tech for all I care. But the point of published settings is that they come with some curated decisions and consistency. Some things in D&D fit in Dark Sun and some things don't. Part of a publisher's job is deciding which things fit in which bucket. If I buy material for a specific setting, I expect it to fit with the rest of the setting. The publisher doesn't get to put tanks in Pendragon. ((Which, again, has nothing to do with what a referee does once they buy it. I can run Pendragon adventures in my personal Dark Sun campaign if I want and have knights riding tanks. And no one would care.))

Traveller (the rules) currently has at least three published settings (that use the Mongoose Traveller logo, there's all the Cepheus ones too): The Third Imperium, 2300, and Mindjammer. Sometime in the near future it will have a fourth, Pioneer. They all use different tech assumptions. They are all Traveller.

Mongoose's job is, among other things, making sure that Third Imperium stuff is in the Third Imperium bucket, and 2300 stuff is in the 2300 bucket. And make sure we don't have Ebers in the Massilia sector scooting around using stutterwarp firing phasers or whatever. That's something a referee can do if they want and no one will care. If Mongoose were to do that, people would be rightly upset.

So when new tech is in a SECTOR BOOK, it is setting material. And Mongoose has an obligation to make sure the setting reflects those additions. Or don't add them to setting books. Leave them to rulebooks like the CSC.

 

[alex_greene]

Like I've been saying - it's not up to you what other players do with the OTU. You don't get to make the call.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No one is saying that, only you.

The OTU only exists for authors, and authors should not be free to just shoehorn in their favourite gonzo tech, it should be compatible with the setting.

Once a referee and players get to work it becomes an IMTU regardless if they started with the 1105 Third Imperium, a different OTU era, or a completely homebrew setting.

The OTU belongs to MWM, he has the final decision. The Mongoose vision for the Third Imperium is close to Marc's, but sufficiently different to classify the Mongoose Third Imperium as an ATU, just as the GT setting was an ATU.

 

[Condottiere]

There's mix and matching.

I decided to buy Aerospace Engineer's Handbook, because I was running out of suitable and/or interesting spacecraft options, and I would suppose there's a high degree of compatibility between Twenty Three Hundred Anno Domini and Traveller.

 

[alex_greene]

No one is saying that, only you.

Truth is truth, even if it's just one person speaking it.

The OTU only exists for authors

No, it's there for players and referees. The game is not the rulebooks. The game is the people sat around their tables or at their screens, playing out the adventures.

The OTU belongs to MWM, he has the final decision.

So, you're not MWM. You don't make any kind of decision. Just as I said.

MWM can't travel to tell some guy in New York or Sydney or Basingstoke that they can't play the game because they're not following his rules. The OTU is just the start of how things are. The referee and players can pretty much do with it what they will. It'll still be the OTU. You have no power to tell anyone otherwise.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Truth is truth, even if it's just one person speaking it.

Which I am.

No, it's there for players and referees. The game is not the rulebooks. The game is the people sat around their tables or at their screens, playing out the adventures.

This is the point of departure.
The game is Traveller.
The setting is whatever you want it to be, but if you want to play in the setting described by GDW then there is the OTU - the Third Imperium and its various eras.
The term OTU has always been a reference to the published setting, the one described in the "official" books. The OTU began with the 1105 Third Imperium and grew from there.
No personal energy shields, no phasers, no ftl comms. no handbrake turns in space fighters...

The game begins when the referee and players sit down and start gaming, at that point it is no longer the OTU but an IMTU situation.

So, you're not MWM. You don't make any kind of decision. Just as I said.

Neither are you, and nor do you get to tell me how I run my game or what I choose to include or exclude from MTU.
MWM however gets to define the setting, such as his novels and short stories.

MWM can't travel to tell some guy in New York or Sydney or Basingstoke that they can't play the game because they're not following his rules. The OTU is just the start of how things are. The referee and players can pretty much do with it what they will. It'll still be the OTU. You have no power to tell anyone otherwise.

You appear to be unable to grasp the concept of game vs setting, and have a very different interpretation of what the OTU represents.

Traveller is a set of rules for running rpgs in a sci fi setting.

The OTU is the setting as defined and described by the owner of the setting and authors with license to do so.

MTU is what I (and other groups) choose to do with it.

 

[alex_greene]

So there's the final word from the OTU Preservation Society.
You do not have a license to play in the OTU. It is not your universe to play with, even if it's in your books right there in your hands.
Anyway, gatekeepers can go to blazes, kids. The grogs can't come around your place and stamp on your Traveller collection. Play with it. Set it on fire. It's the OTU, and there's nothing they can do about it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think you are overreacting a tad and being slightly erroneous of your comprehension of what is being said here.

The Third Imperium is a setting. It is often referred to as the OTU.
The Third Imperium setting is yours to do with at the table what you wish.

The authors who write official licensed material for the OTU have to abide by the extant canon - MWM himself is quoted as saying he is bound by canon. What you do at your table is up to you, no one is going to SWAT team you for adding Star Wars fighters to YTU, or Dune personal energy screens, or phasers and deflector screens, but such things have no place in the setting as defined by OTU.

I'm all in favour of Mongoose producing rule books and supplements that go way beyond the constraints of the Third Imperium setting so referees and players have more options, but seeing Star Wars fighters, Star Wars ion cannon, Dune personal energy shields appear in the Third Imperium setting after 40 years...

 

[Vormaerin]

The reality is that you cannot find a post by Sigtrygg, myself, or anyone else on this forum that makes any attempt to restrict what PLAYERS do with the game or any of the settings for it. We are talking about the people SELLING the OTU books and you keep talking about the people BUYING/USING them. Not the same thing. That should be a pretty simple distinction. I don't know if you are somehow missing that point or if you are arguing in bad faith, but there's no point in trying to have a discussion since you keep lying about what I've said. That's just an argument and arguments are a waste of time.

 

[alex_greene]

So this is what Collectors will probably look like, courtesy of Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. I got a real Annic Nova vibe from this.

Either that, or somebody got inspired by their umbrella turning inside out in a high wind.

 

[Condottiere]

Appears to have our gravity based manoeuvre drives, as well.

 

[Somebody]

Side note:

Commercial steam ships, commercial diesel powered ships and commercial sail ships all existed in parallel. Diesel powered fast freighters did exist prior to WW2 in regular service and at the same time ships like the "Flying P" Liners where still in operation (The last was build in 1926! as a pure commercial vessel, still sailing today as Kruzenstern / ex Padua)