Plasma Torpedos vs. Drones

[MongooseMatt]

I strongly disagree with this idea, for all the reasons previously given by myself and others. Though I did think of another, the longer range of Drones isn't that much a benefit. If you're outside of weapon range chucking drones, the opponent could simply put most of his fleet on "Defensive Fire" and slowly advance, shooting down most of the incoming drones while he works to corner you.

This is correct. The way to make a long-ranged 'drone chucker' work is to have him sitting on the baseline or in a corner, but have other ships engaging the enemy at close range. The enemy will concentrate on those ships (and be using phasers to defend against them and launch his own attacks), and the drone chucker can let loose a full salvo at the end of the Attack Phase and (hopefully) find his warheads unopposed.

Again, that is a best case scenario

More typically, drones on most ships are weapons of opportunity, used when your opponent has already shot his drones, or lost them to a critical hit, or has been tempted to use all his phasers to try to finish off one of your ships (and failed), or any one of a hundred other possibilities!

If you really want to see drones nullified and become useless, try a civil war between two Federation forces (the appearence of a battlecruiser _really_ puts the cat among the pigeons - I'll let you figure out why ).

 

[AxisFan67]

Can plasmas be fired at other plasmas and drones?

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

No, not in CTA:SF anyways.

 

[Da Boss]

Only phasers can be used against Plasma

Drones, Phasers, Tractor beams and Ant-drone can be used against Drones

Both can be evaded.

 

[AxisFan67]

Is this different from FC and SFB? I thought plasmas could be fired at other plasmas and drones. Just wondering if this is an inconsistency.

 

[Da Boss]

Someone did say there was a special kind of plasma that could do this in a thread but its not in the game at present. I get the impression (and likely) wrong its not any plasma that can do this.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

Is this different from FC and SFB? I thought plasmas could be fired at other plasmas and drones. Just wondering if this is an inconsistency.

I believe only phasers can damage/reduce Plasma Torpedoes in SFB/FedCom, besides terrain like dust clouds and asteroid fields. ESGs might, I can't remember, but we don't have to worry about those yet.

I believe Drones are a valid target for Plasma Torpedoes in SFB at least, but that'd be a gross-waste of the Plasma, unless it was a Plasma-D.

 

[Nomad]

In the SFU, plasmas can never be targeted on other plasmas.

There's a weapon called the Plasma-D that works rather like an Anti-drone as a rapid-fire defensive weapon. I'd expect it to turn up in ACtA:SF sooner or later.

 

[Iron Domokun]

Drones are very, very different to plasma.

Drones: 1 AD each; long range; fires every turn.
Possible defenses: phasers; anti-drones; drones fired defensively; tractor beams; running away; Lyran Expanding Sphere generators, Tholian webs, and other stuff when those get added to the game.
Other considerations: same at short range as at long range.

Phasers: 2-7 AD per weapon, depending on size. Reload.
Possible defenses: phasers, running away.
Other considerations: suck at long range, capable of massive, overwhelming salvoes up close.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

Played Gorns for a LONG WHILE, and i think if you ask any Gorn player, the phasers on his boats are generally there for anti-plamsa work when fighting Romulans (whay they have such good all round coverage - never quite sure where the pointy eared bird bothers will be coming for). Whenever i've played against fleets from the Eastern side (the drone users) tend to find that drones don't last, as Gorn's (until upgraded, when they got P-3's) only had P-1's for defense, but a sure kill against a drone (P-3's have to let it get close to ensure an auto-kill, and not sure if that's perfect)

I ActA:SF, due to the 1 weapon stopping 1 AD (either drone or Plasma), P-3's are far more effective in this role against Plasma's than in the parent systems. In any case, most Eastern ships will have at least 3-4 AD of Phasers firing forward, so as they only miss drones on a 1 on a D6 (gotta love +2 accurate), and then you've got 'IDF/Overwatch' from the rest of the fleet and Tractors, they don't overly seem that troublesome.

If your worried now, wait for stuff like the D6D or other 'drone bombardment cruisers'.

 

[Sgt_G]

Someone suggested making drones a Reload weapon in ACTA. That doesn't fit the SFU background information. Going back to SFB & FedCmdr, a drone rack has four drones in it, and can launch one drone per turn. On the fifth turn, you have to reload it, and then can launch drones on turns 6-9, reload on turn 10, etc, etc. It gets a bit more complex in SFB, of course.

I do not think we want to track four turns of fire before reload in ACTA.

In SFB / FedCmdr, drones (and plasmas) are placed on the map and move until they hit the target (or get shot down). Drones have a fuel range allowing them to be on the map for three full turns (remember that those games have 32 movement impluses per turn). I was trying to figure out how ACTA got a range of 36" for drones, then it dawned on me that it's three turns of movement at 12" per turn. They simplied it in ACTA by compressing three turns of movement into one turn of pseudo direct-fire.

If further playtesting shows long range drones are too powerful, I have a couple of suggestions to offer.

One plan, which is NOT what I am recommending, would be to allow drone to use the direct-fire rules up to 12" away. If the target is not within 12", place the drone marker 12" from the launching ship in a bee-line directly towards the target. On the second turn, the drone marker will move at the same time as the launching ship. If it reaches the target within 12", it hits (subject to being shot down, etc). If not, again place the marker 12" closer to the target and try again on the third turn. If it still can't reach the target after the tird turn, it runs out of fuel and is removed from play.

That all works great in theory, but I fear that once you face a Kziniti fleet, the map will be covered with drone markers. What was the line from the movie 300? "Our arrows will blacken the sky." Yeah, that's what a large Kzinti fleet does in SFB.

The idea I would offer is this: keep everything the same, except for the following. If the target is within 1/2 the range (i.e., 18") of the drone launching ship, no changes. If it's more than 1/2 the range, the target gets a plus one (+1) to any defensive dive rolls. Additionally, if it's more than 3/4 the range (24"), the target ship may attempt to Evade even if it did not use the All Power To Engines, or it may evade if it did move faster that 12" even if the drones are coming itno the Front arc. (It's not easy, but in SFB it actually IS possible to maneuver around drones coming into your face, but you have to plan ahead and time it perfectly.)


The other thing about drones I would suggest, if they do rules for "Middle Years" era, that is from just before the Four Powers War up to the start of the General War, then reduce drone range from 36" to 24" to simulate the slower speed drones of the era.

 

[Iron Domokun]

Here's a simpler, and IMO better, solution:

Chop the range of drones in half. That still gives them good range, but it stops them from being a can't-miss super-ranged super-weapon. The number of drones which stay on the board for a full three turns in the base game can be counted on the fingers of one head anyway, so it's not "unrealistic".

 

[Iain McGhee]

They'll stay on the board for the full three turns unless you take active measures to evade or destroy them, or they impact their target, in FC. Evasion is abstracted to a degree, but it's still there in SF (if a bit more reliant on luck).

You could perhaps make a case for reducing the range to 25" (like the FC seeker tracking limit), but I suspect the longer range is there to give drone-heavy ships/fleets an analogue of their ability to use stand-off tactics in FC, taking into consideration the closing speed of the ships and fixed (and often relatively smaller) playing area and the higher incidence of LOS-blocking terrain.

 

[locarno24]

One plan, which is NOT what I am recommending, would be to allow drone to use the direct-fire rules up to 12" away. If the target is not within 12", place the drone marker 12" from the launching ship in a bee-line directly towards the target. On the second turn, the drone marker will move at the same time as the launching ship. If it reaches the target within 12", it hits (subject to being shot down, etc). If not, again place the marker 12" closer to the target and try again on the third turn. If it still can't reach the target after the tird turn, it runs out of fuel and is removed from play.

The Victory At Sea mechanic for Japanese Long-Lance torpedoes works similarly; when you shoot, place a torpedo marker next to the target. The torps hit at the end of that turn if the range is short enough, or at the end of the next turn if the range is longer (allowing you time to turn prow on to them and/or pull evasive manouvring special actions).

The counter never moves, exactly, and their exact position mid-flight doesn't matter.

 

[Da Boss]

Are we sure there is even a problem yet?

Lets see how the game pans out maybe as chnaging the rules for drones is no small thing?

Apart from having to note which pahsers have fired defensively the mechanci is presently not bad and there have been a good listing of anti-drone measures.

 

[Nomad]

DB beat me to it...

Drones are not *that* effective. Between phasers, anti-drones, counter-launched drones and tractors, they rarely actually *hit* anything. At best, they *do* force the enemy to use 'IDF!' instead of more aggressive SAs, and soak up some return phaser and drone fire.

Most scenarios only last eight turns anyway, which is, I suspect, why the complexity of drone reloading was left out of ACtA.

And the one-turn direct fire mechanic actually helps the drone's target - the drone user can't build a drone wave over two turns as is standard Kzinti practice in SFB/FC.

As a counter-proposal, how about letting drones fire when the ship is using a 'power drain' SA?

 

[Digger]

When we played the other night, drones were pretty ineffective. They were easy to stop, what with:

1. Anti-drone
2. Your own drones
3. Phasers
4. Tractors

Not one got through, so I really don't see them being a problem; annoyance, yes; but not a major problem.

Of course when I get shafted by a Kzinti fleet using drones, I'll bitch like hell, but until then, lets see how it goes before we make changes!

 

[Iron Domokun]

Nomad, yeah I think I'd be happy with drones firing under power drain.

 

[deadshane]

This thread reminds me of 40k boards when a new codex is released.

Instead of using their heads and figuring out the "puzzle" peeps run around screaming how the sky is falling.

To me it seems that each race can handle drones...it's not the end of the world. I'm much more worried about plasma ships that cloak. Personally, I'm thinking the Klingons look to be the most dangerous faction if used by a savvy Admiral. D6's look like a great investment to me, and the D7F looks rude as heck....especially against people who are going to be relying on the "brokenness" of drones. :mrgreen:

 

[Iron Domokun]

Instead of using their heads and figuring out the "puzzle" peeps run around screaming how the sky is falling.

To be fair, when GW releases a new Codex, it always is a huge hunk of cheese. :lol:

Garth proposed something to make drones conform more closely to the "reality" of the SFU. I counter-proposed that it would be simpler to just reduce the range rather than introduce more complications. I'm not convinced drones are broken.