Plasma Torpedos vs. Drones

[Renny]

As Digger pointed out, we managed to stop drones with the various layers of defense pretty well. That said, isn't that the point? They make you use up your defenses, and now and then one will still get through and give you a bloody nose. I certainly don't think they're broken. They're a part of the feel of the SFU. And you won't be laughing if you roll too many 1's when rolling for ADD and suddenly find you're out of ammo.

 

[logical_proof]

Deadshane, no I don't think this is a lack of figuring out the puzzle. Check out the fleet of 6 salvage cruisers with 8 AD of drones each and a light raider with three more, that is 51 AD of drones each turn. What are the odds of me hitting with 10 of them? ADD 2 takes care of 12, phasers maybe another 8, tractors 2..

 

[Da Boss]

Deadshane, no I don't think this is a lack of figuring out the puzzle. Check out the fleet of 6 salvage cruisers with 8 AD of drones each and a light raider with three more, that is 51 AD of drones each turn. What are the odds of me hitting with 10 of them? ADD 2 takes care of 12, phasers maybe another 8, tractors 2..

I still don't see why you think the Romulans/ Gorn are so disadvantaged given the reality of how the game works?

re Drones - You automatically hit with all of them same as with Plasma - unless you are cloaked - when neither work at all.

There is acknowledged to be a problem with Orion ship - and apparently it is being amended in ther eratta - however that is a problem with ship and its balance within the game - nothing to do with the actual drone rules mechanism.

I don't think we should jump towards changing things until we see game results and any possible issues arising from them as has not been the case from the feedback of those who have actually played the game, thus far at least. It might be there is a problem but then again there is equally likely not.

We certainly, IMO don't want to go back to the drone counters - not every single rule can be changed to match the SFU at the expense of game play.

 

[Sgt_G]

Guys, please note that I said, "If further playtesting shows long range drones are too powerful...." I wasn't suggesting change for change sake, or 'just' to make it closer to SFB / FedCmdr. I was preemptively offering a solution -IF- a problem was found.

 

[Da Boss]

Oh I saw that but I am not sure others did

We need to see how it works and then look at it and feedback if there is in fact an issue - and its not related to specific ships.

 

[scoutdad]

Garth and Terry:
Please... let's not go back to drone counters!!!!!! :lol:

That was the original rule (similar to VaS) and it was an accounting nightmare compared to the current system. No really bad compared to SFB, but way slower than what we have now.

I understand the concerns though and thought the same things when I first saw the rules, but after playing many games with those rules - it's not bad.
Drones now function quite similar to SFB:
They rarely hit (unless used en masse by a Kzinti fleet) but they can be used for:
stand-off bombardment - not real effective as you cna't back them up with any other wepaons and they can still be shot down.
Phaser sinks - you have to shoot them down or they do hit
Mobile Terrain - they aren't on the board like SFB/FC, butthey do force you to consider your apprach more carefully.

Give them a whirl so see what you think. And after playing them a few times, if you're still of the opinion that they're uber-powerful, we'll have a common basis for discussion.

 

[Sgt_G]

ScoutDad, please go back and re-read my post. I said I would NOT recommend on-map counters. I mentioned that because I was sure someone else would think of it, and I was trying to say why it would be a mess.

 

[Iron Domokun]

Garth and Terry:
Please... let's not go back to drone counters!!!!!!

Agree 100%.

We need drone miniatures. :mrgreen:

 

[Iron Domokun]

Deadshane, no I don't think this is a lack of figuring out the puzzle. Check out the fleet of 6 salvage cruisers with 8 AD of drones each

Salvage cruiser stats are in error, this will be corrected with the errata. I'm not sure what the correction is, but I think that the maximum possible AD of drones will be 6, and there may be other corrections. Although certainly 39 AD of weapons that auto-hit is no joke.

 

[AxisFan67]

So, because you can target drones with plasmas in SFB and FC, will there be errata to allow this in ACTA:SF or was it taken out as a game balance issue?

 

[andypalmer]

CAVEAT: Haven't seen the rulebook yet, so please correct any incorrect statements.

Pros vs cons of ACTA drones, vs. generic SFB ones.

PROS
1. Can only defend your own ship in ACTA with defensive fire
2. Drones cannot run out of fuel in ACTA
3. Drones take effect immediately in ACTA
4. No Transporter bombs (mini-mines) to help reduce drones in ACTA
5. No Wild Weasels (decoys) in ACTA

CONS
1. Cannot combine launches from multiple turns in a single combined strike in ACTA
2. No scatterpacks (shuttles with emergency launch racks) to increase drone launch rate in a turn in ACTA
3. More terrain used in ACTA, impacted launch rate due to LOS considerations
4. Drones have less impact on maneuvering in ACTA, giving less tactical benefit
5. Drones gain no benefit in Sequence of Play in ACTA (i.e., in SFB you launch drones before direct fire weapons are fired, allowing you to empty racks before they get blown off)

Overall, looking at this anecdotally, and of course, without having played the game, it seems a good balance. i.e., I'm not saying the sky is falling yet and I have a known penchant for breaking games/rules.

 

[Da Boss]

So, because you can target drones with plasmas in SFB and FC, will there be errata to allow this in ACTA:SF or was it taken out as a game balance issue?

As has been stated this sounds like it is an exeception to the normal rule even in those games and so can be postponed for now - and looked at (if at all) with drone variants as something to consider if it enhacnes the game/ gameplay....

 

[logical_proof]

Axis that would be hard to do because you can only hit one drone Per torpedo, so a plasma R would only kill one AD of drones. Though it would be helpful to give plasma D's some sort of ADD like ability. I really enjoyed the game that I played so far. I was Feds my opponent was Klingon, it was very different from Fed Comm, in FedComm if the Feds get into overload range with a fleet one of the opponents ships goes boom. Not quite here, but that is not an issue with me if I wanted a game that Played just like FedComm I would play FedComm.

I also see that folks disagree that there is no problem with Plasma vs. Drones, no biggie, time will tell. I am convinced that there is a large disparity between the two weapons systems. I am still going to buy the miniatures because Mongoose made a Sparrowhawk look AMAZING!

 

[Da Boss]

I really enjoyed the game that I played so far.

Well thats the main thing Seriously you may be right about Drones but we have not seen it yet................hopefully not!

8)

 

[andypalmer]

So, because you can target drones with plasmas in SFB and FC, will there be errata to allow this in ACTA:SF or was it taken out as a game balance issue?

Until the Plasma-D is introduced, I don't see a big need. Even in SFB, the times were few and far between when you would fire even a Plasma-F at a type-I drone. At this point, I think it's a positive simplification.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

So, because you can target drones with plasmas in SFB and FC, will there be errata to allow this in ACTA:SF or was it taken out as a game balance issue?

Until the Plasma-D is introduced, I don't see a big need. Even in SFB, the times were few and far between when you would fire even a Plasma-F at a type-I drone. At this point, I think it's a positive simplification.

Actually the Plasma-D is already in the game, I believe. Just a 1AD plasma with the normal traits (Devastating+1, Energy Bleed, Multihit d6, Reload Seeking).

 

[starbreaker]

Actually the Plasma-D is already in the game, I believe. Just a 1AD plasma with the normal traits (Devastating+1, Energy Bleed, Multihit d6, Reload Seeking).

Plasma-D has Reload? In a game where drones never run out of ammo? What a lousy translation - couldn't they have at least given them some variant of the ACTA anti-drone mechanic for defensive work? Much coser to their actual performance in SFB.

 

[Rambler]

Actually the Plasma-D is already in the game, I believe. Just a 1AD plasma with the normal traits (Devastating+1, Energy Bleed, Multihit d6, Reload Seeking).

Plasma-D has Reload? In a game where drones never run out of ammo? What a lousy translation - couldn't they have at least given them some variant of the ACTA anti-drone mechanic for defensive work? Much coser to their actual performance in SFB.

Starbreaker as far as the basic game goes it was probably a lot easier to stat out a D like any other plasma. Wait to see if the Errata adds a Advance Rule to it that makes them more drone rack like.

I did play a game of Romulans vs Klingons and yes it was not pretty for the Romulans it was not a cake walk for the Klingon. I need more gamed to comment better but worst case I can see maybe opening the range on a Type R and maybe Type S a little.

 

[Sgt_G]

I noticed the Carronade stats show it has Reload, but then the text says they can be fired every turn. I beleive the text is correct and the stats are incorrect.

 

[Iain McGhee]

I believe both text and table are correct, it's just not as clear as it should be. You need to use Reload before you fire it as a torpedo or bolt again, but you can continually fire in carronade mode.

Re. Plasma-D: There's only one ship that has this at present (KRC, which is hardly short of drone defences without it), so I suspect it may not show up in it's full form until we see escorts or the ISC, whatever comes first. It's not that difficult to mod in a house rule for it anyway, just port over the Fed/G-rack ADD mode from the Federation fleet list. I would agree that perhaps it shouldn't really have Reload, however (for non-FC players, Plasma-D is typically "pre-packaged" in racks like drones).