Over/underpowered Classes

[Clovenhoof]

Intricate Swordplay doesn't require you to use Cha instead of Str. You use it in addition to Str.

Hmmm.... okay, if you use Point Buy character generation and want to get the highest possible Parry, then Intricate Swordplay can make a difference, because Str 14, Cha 14 costs the same as Str 16, Cha 10 but gives you 1 point better Parry, and Cha will climb to 18 over the levels, so you effectively trade 1 point To Hit/damage for 4 points of parry. Gotcha.

More thoughts on the Temptress:
As Ichabod has pointed out, some or even most of the Social abilities are very NPCish and, might I add, not necessarily well balanced. For example, Binding Contract is WAY too easy to use - if nothing else it should at least grant a Will Save every 24 hours or so to be able to break it. The way it is written (in HFallen), it is better than the entire Hypnotism school.

Which Sorcery styles are suitable for the Temptress? Let's go through them one by one:
* Counterspells: would be a good idea, but with the Temptress's low Magic Attack progression, chances to Ward against a proper Sorcerer's spells are slim.
* Curses: forget them. Ill-fortune is not attractive for Player Characters. Gelid Bones is inaccessible due to the Calm of the Adept prereq. Rest has too high Magic Attack prereqs and/or PP cost.
* Divination: excellent choice, due to manageable Prereqs and few spells requiring Magic Attack rolls. Maybe the best sorcery style for the Temptress.
* Hypnotism: would be very fitting, but again, due to the weak Magic Attack your target will probably make its Will save; also as mentioned above, some of your class abilities are even better than anything you can do with Hypnotism.
* Nature magic: not really, simply because there aren't enough attractive spells you can learn. Basically you'd get an Animal Ally and that's it.
* Necromancy: even worse than Curses; the prereqs are so high you can just forget it right now.
* Oriental Magic: too high PP cost to be viable for a Temptress.
* Prestidigitation: a good choice, having low prereqs and not requiring Magic Attack rolls, and just the right amount of spells.
* Summoning: not really an option, because you certainly don't want a Demonic Pact (and I'm not even sure it's possible)

So in short, the way I see it, you're down to two choices if you take Sorcery: Divination or Prestidigitation.

EDIT: forgot Summoning.

 

[Ichabod]

Which Sorcery styles are suitable for the Temptress? Let's go through them one by one:
* Counterspells: would be a good idea, but with the Temptress's low Magic Attack progression, chances to Ward against a proper Sorcerer's spells are slim.
* Curses: forget them. Ill-fortune is not attractive for Player Characters. Gelid Bones is inaccessible due to the Calm of the Adept prereq. Rest has too high Magic Attack prereqs and/or PP cost.
* Divination: excellent choice, due to manageable Prereqs and few spells requiring Magic Attack rolls. Maybe the best sorcery style for the Temptress.
* Hypnotism: would be very fitting, but again, due to the weak Magic Attack your target will probably make its Will save; also as mentioned above, some of your class abilities are even better than anything you can do with Hypnotism.
* Nature magic: not really, simply because there aren't enough attractive spells you can learn. Basically you'd get an Animal Ally and that's it.
* Necromancy: even worse than Curses; the prereqs are so high you can just forget it right now.
* Oriental Magic: too high PP cost to be viable for a Temptress.
* Prestidigitation: a good choice, having low prereqs and not requiring Magic Attack rolls, and just the right amount of spells.

So in short, the way I see it, you're down to two choices if you take Sorcery: Divination or Prestidigitation.

Funny, except for the comments about Counterspells and Hypnotism, I could see someone saying these same things for scholar characters.

Actually, Hypnotism is fine. People keep seeming to want to use it on powerful characters. I'd just use it on nobodies who can make powerful characters' lives hell - servants, stablehands, messengers, whores, et al.

 

[treeplanter]

Well the way I see it you may put a decent strenght and a decent charisma (let say 12) and since charisma will go up at 6 and 10 level you could add a +2 to your parry wich seem ok to me.

In the end it really come down what your campain look like. Clovenhoof seem to be stick on strenght but if combat represent 10% of your game then why would I care about this +1/+1? Meanwhile i l ll really regret it if the game is 95% combat. If youre playing an assassin or a heavy political intrigue campain wich about Disguise stealth forgery knowledge: nobility why would you want this +1/+1?

The thing whith Attribute that make it so hard to compare is that every stat have a objective value(what it give according to the book) and a subjective value (what it give according to the GM). Strenght for exemple have lot of objective value but close to none subjective value. Charisma on the other end have a small objective value but can have a high subjective value. For exemple in my campain I will punish a low-charisma character at each occasion I get. And trust me soon or later it will hurt much more that this trivial +1/+1.

If a play a soldier who plan on becoming an officer with leadership feat ill put less strenght but more Inteligence and charisma so intricate swordplay would become a really interesting feat for this character type.

Your stats should represent the type and the aptitude of character you wanna play otherwise every character become merely clone better play 4ed in that case.

 

[LilithsThrall]

Intricate Swordplay doesn't require you to use Cha instead of Str. You use it in addition to Str.

Hmmm.... okay, if you use Point Buy character generation and want to get the highest possible Parry, then Intricate Swordplay can make a difference, because Str 14, Cha 14 costs the same as Str 16, Cha 10 but gives you 1 point better Parry, and Cha will climb to 18 over the levels, so you effectively trade 1 point To Hit/damage for 4 points of parry. Gotcha.

Add to that the fact that the Noble will likely have higher Intimidate and Bluff skills. That allows for synergy between the higher parry, menacing aura, and improved feint. All of which further improve the chances for riposte (albeit at the cost of feat slots).

 

[cbrunish]

I'm telling you, give the Pirate and Noble 6 skill points per level and they would be perfectly rounded out. Also give the Soldier 3 skill points per level. Come on, the commoner has 3 skill points per level! :?

 

[Clovenhoof]

What I prefer to do is boil down the skill list, using Perception, Stealth, Athletics etc. -- this can be worth up to 4 extra skill points per level. However, I agree that the Soldier could use a hard upgrade to his skills.

 

[treeplanter]

Well i think the soldier could deserve 4 skills point at first level but not 4 each level. He is the best in combat and is training represent that. If you want him to have more skill just put a decent intelligence. Also you get a lot of bonus feat so you can easily take some skill-boost feat and still be a combat monster.

 

[Vambelte]

For the rules presented in the book, many classes are underpowered, beeing the noble and the borderer the biggest problem. So I've beeing working on many modifications, that along whit some feats I've created, balanced the classes pretty good for me. Keep in mind that in my games players don't wield magic, so I haven't bothered wht scholar and spells.

The first change I did was in regard of the pirate, I've found that during the course of a campaing the group doesn't spend much time on sea, so I've turned the pirate into the bandit, which uses th pirate table, but replaces seamenship for bonus feat, and removes pirate code and navigation.

Then I've changed the borderer combat style for bonus feat. I should state that I don't restrict any bonus feat, from any class, to a list of feats. Whit a bonus feat you can get any feat, for which you meet the requiriments.

Since I don't use any pretige class, feats are what make the diference. So I gave bonus feat to nobles at lvls 3°, 8°, 13° and 18°. Also I've improved the comeliness bonus to +3, reputation to +4 and removed etiquete and smear others (which should be based in skills an role play).

Born to the sadle also gives +4 to ride, I've changed Trap sense name to Danger sense, which also gives bonus to listen. Removed bite sword.

My next step was to create feats that develop the classes roles. The borderer, for example, should excel at is favoured terrain, but "by the book", in his domain, he barely gets the same defense the other classes have everywhere. So I've created a feat that adds wisdom modifier to dodge on his terrain, among other feats.

These changes have a lot of tought and testing behind.

 

[treeplanter]

Interesting tought, However I don't think Borderer and Pirate are underpowered. In fact your just saying that since your party don't go at see the pirate class is unappropriate for them, wich is not the same thing as underpowered.

Borderer is already excelling in his favored terrain. + X to 5 skills, defense and +10-20 feat movement is quite huge so that is lot more than just a + X to defense that is more like he get alertness, stealthy, dodge and fleet-footed one or two time

also if you change borderer combat style to bonus feat i think he just become plain better than the soldier.

 

[Vambelte]

yeah, the bonus to movement and skills is great, but a borderer defense isn't good at all. His progression is lvl/2. Comparing a soldier lvl 8 whit Str 18, and a borderer lvl 8 whit Dex 18, we have the soldier whit parry 20 and the borderer whit dodge 18, 21 at his main terrain. So the advantage over the soldier is just 1 in his terrain. If you think that the soldier have that parry using a massive 2 hander, that will benefit from his high Str, again the borderer is in disvantage, because he invested in Dex, and thus, he will inflict less damage, even whit a bow.

About the pirate, yeah, I didn't said it's underpowered. I just think that a bandit is more generic, beeing the pirate a bandit in a ship.

 

[Clovenhoof]

The Borderer's Defense will be _very good_ in his top favourite terrains, second only to a Soldier's Parry, or maybe not even that considering you get Two-Weapon Defense as well and not all Soldiers carry a Shield.

You can absolutely skill your Borderer on Strength to get excellent Attack, Parry and Damage scores. Unless you want to specialize in Ranged combat, nothing makes you skilling for Dex and sacrificing Strength. The Borderer gets equal Parry and Dodge progressions so I really don't see any reason why you should go for Dex. Skills maybe, but on most of the Dex skills you gain Favoured Terrain bonuses, which balances out what you may be lacking in Dex.

So all in all, the Borderer's abilities are pretty circumstantial, but on his home ground he can be really good and doesn't need to shy comparison with other classes. A Str-oriented Borderer with TWD can get a Parry of 35 on his home ground, not counting Combat Expertise.

 

[Vambelte]

Well if you give the terrain bonus to parry... acording to the book the bonus goes to dodge, but it can be extended to parry, no problm there. But the barbarina, the pirate and the soldier have a top 15 defense. If you look at the tables, you realize the borderer have just 1 point of defense ahead, at most, when in his best terrain. In my opinion the borderer should really shine in his enviroment, beyond skill level, but in combat too. So I have created these feats:

Wisdom of the land:
Favoured terrain +3, Knowledge(geography and nature) rank8+, Dodge (or Parry)

Add your wisdom modifier, to defense, when you receive at least +3 bonus from your favoured terrain.

Geographical advantage:
Favoured terrain +2, knowledge (geography and nature) rank 6+

Add your terrain bonus to attacks.

Nature's supremacy:
Wisdom of the land, knowledge (geography and nature) rank 11+

Grants damage reducion equal to your wisdom modifier, where your wisdom of the land applies.

Remembering that those feats can be used by nomads too, a class people usually forget about.

In my group I have a borderer, and he is out of his main terrain most of the time, because the campaing took a turn and the group is based in Shem, but they come from Aquilonia. So when he gets hsi bonus, he really shines. That really makes him different from the soldiers.

 

[Clovenhoof]

acording to the book the bonus goes to dodge

It does? Damn, that's what you get when you write posts without having the book on hand; I thought it applied to Defense in general. Anyway, The whole ability is so Meta that I don't see why it shouldn't apply to Parry as well. I mean, gaining a Dodge bonus in forests I can imagine because it would mean using trees as cover etc., but in open pot-level plains?

Barbarians also have only average Defense in the end, because they usually skill Strength but have a pitiful Parry progression, and the good Dodge progression merely offsets the lower Dex score. For instance the Barbarian I'm playing now will have equal Dodge and Parry for most of his career, both topping off at around 29 if I skill for Strength.

Pirates and Soldiers are the only classes whose primary Defense is synergistic with their usual primary abilities. I.e. Soldiers skill for Strength and get excellent Parry, while Pirates don't need so much Strength and can go for Dex due to their Sneak Attack ability, plus good Initiative and Mobility to use it often by striking first or getting into flanking positions.

 

[Vambelte]

If your barbarian gets Fighting Madness, and most does, his dodge will be screwed anyway. But it's possible to make a barbarian whit good dodge, especially picts and southern blacks, but you gonna sacrifice offensive power, since you gonna drop one of the best feats out there. I've created these feats thinking on enchancing dodge, since there's intricate sword play do boost parry, and riposte:

Cunny defense:
Mobility (class ability), Combat expertise, Dodge

Add your Inteligence modifier to dodge.

Side step:
Cunny defense, BAB6+

Whenever you dodge an attack, you get +4 to your next attack, against the opponent that missed you. You get this bonus just once per round.

You can get these feats whit nomades, bandits(pirates) and barbarians that doesn get Fighting madness.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I've always shied away from introducing new feats. I guess I'm too worried about making them under- or overpowered. Maybe I shouldn't be so timid, since the majority of supplement feats are also unbalanced.

 

[Vambelte]

Well I take a lot of care that, under the rules I use and the conditions we play (no sorceres in the group), the feats are balanced. But I have to admmit it gave a bit of work. I've changed many feats, not adopted many others, and created some. In the end I have a solid list of feats, that are balanced, in my game perspective. I have this list, whit all selected, changed and created feats, but it's in portuguese

I remember you, Cloven, saying that you think some feats should be 2 in 1, like brawl. I do agree whit you, so taking brawl for example, I did this.

Improved unarmed strike:
Stay the same, but gives +1 to unarmed damage.

Brawl:
Improved unarmed strike

Change your unarmed strike damage to 1d6. You can attack whit your off-hand, whit the same bonuses to hit and damage, as your main hand. Including the multiple attacks for BAB progression.

Just after modifying the feat, like that, I tought it was on par whit the other choices a carachter have.

 

[windman]

Cunny defense.

:shock:

Is that like a diaphragm?
Seems a good feat for a temptress.

 

[Clovenhoof]

*rofl*
I suppose he means "cunning" ^^

@Vambelte: I like those Unarmed feat changes.

 

[Vambelte]

Sometimes my english FAILS... yep, I meant cunning.

Cloven, I have some more for that tree of feats