Over/underpowered Classes

[cbrunish]

I really like the Noble character, but I think that the skill points are too low. I think that it should be raised up to 6. This character is more of a skill based character anyways. And I would have to say the Pirate needs more skill points. I would raise this up to 6 also. Just my two cents.

And I would put my 10th level Nomad up against any 10th level Barbarian any day. Might not win every time, but he would definatly hold his own. But fortunatly combat is not the most important part of Conan.

What??? You say! I say yes, it's not the most important part of Conan. Technically, the way the experience points are awarded you could even avoid combat completly. But the most important part of Conan is having fun!!! :lol:

 

[Clovenhoof]

Bump
Most barbarian will end up with the fithing madness fighting style.

I guess I must have been missing out then, cuz I never even considered taking a feat that you can use only once per day.

I think versatility should NOT apply to exotic bow.

I don't see why. You just create another unnecessary exception to an exception of a rule. Level 7+ Barbarians can use _anything_ without penalties, and if it's a dinner table as a shield and a couch as weapon, so why on earth should some foreign bows be an exception?

Then again, I don't quite see why any of the good bows should be exotic at all. It's not rocket science. Sure, shooting well with a bow requires training, but if can use one, you can use them all. So all bows should be Martial weapons rather than Simple or Exotic.

Having the best dodge defense and uncanny dodge make it the most dangereous and hardest to kill melee character.

Uncanny Dodge is a good ability, but the "best Dodge" still doesn't make the Barb extraordinarily difficult to hit. A Barb's primary stat will always be Strength to kill stuff, but due to his crappy Parry he can't use his Strength for Defense, so the high Dodge progression merely evens that out.
However, other boons like Unconquerable and Damage Reduction, _these_ make the Barb difficult to kill.

The highest Defense potential goes to the Soldier (max Parry Defense ~42), followed by the Borderer I guess.

Also I think that the Bossnian Hyrkanian and Shemite are all superior to Race that have barbarian has favoured class.

Here I don't quite understand what you mean. While I do think there are first-tier and second-tier races, I surely wouldn't call a Cimmerian inferior to any of the above (and certainly not to his face!). However, I also think that the Nordheimir get a bit shafted.

So in the end I don t think their is a huge imbalance between these classes.

I agree.

 

[Demetrio]

Sure, shooting well with a bow requires training, but if can use one, you can use them all. So all bows should be Martial weapons rather than Simple or Exotic.

There is a difference between the drawing styles used by the more powerful bows, such as the English longbow, Hunnic or Mongol bows, which are drawn to the ear and the weaker bows such as those used by the Romans and ancient Greeks which were drawn to the breast. the latter allowed sighting down the arrow and made accuracy easier, but at the expense of power. The more powerful bows required much more intensive training to attain any degree of accuracy.

So there is a reasonable case for splitting bows into either Simple/Exotic or Martial/Exotic based on range and damage.

I'm not saying they should be so split, but they could be. Personally I'd favour the simpler bows being Martial and the Bossonian longbow and Hyrkanian bow being Exotic.

But I agree, Barbarian's Versatility should apply to all weapons - it's just easier that way.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Oooooh. That's a good point -- I never even considered those short-draw bows. For me (as traditional archer) it goes without saying that you have to draw out to the ear.
But it actually fits into the system -- interpreting the Hunting Bow as a short draw weapon that's easy to use, but does piddly damage and can't benefit from high strength. Nice one.

 

[Demetrio]

I'd also rate the sling as an Exotic weapon (available as standard to certain cultures) personally as it's pretty difficult to master. There's no way it should be a simple weapon.

 

[treeplanter]

Well as for fighting madness I guess it s still a powerfull feat even once per day?! its arguably one of the best combat boost you can get.

As for the best Dodge I did not talk about parry but dodge here. Of course the best parryer is obiviously the soldier. Then you get the Zingaran noble. Then Nomad and Borderer. But overall defense the only class that get a big dodge or parry are Soldier barbarian and Pirate (and noble if you take the zingaran). Nomad and Borderer will get high dodge in their terrain. The fact you want to focus on strenght is purely speculative. Also you can t parry ranged weapon.

As for the bow it was not my idea it was on the house rule thread. My play group doesn t like it but IMHO the guy had good arguments. The fact it negate 4 races regional bonus. Bow are weapon one require an intensive and disciplined training to use. And the fact versatility don t boost critical for ranged weapon kind of make this arguement stronger. I think versatility should read "Melee weapon" from the start.

Also I don t understand how it is easier?!!?

As for the race let see:
Bossnian: Get adaptable. Almost get combat expertise. + 1 to hit with bossnian bow. Bossnian bow proficiency.
Hyrkanian: H. bow and tulwar proficiency. +1 to hit with bow. +2 to bunch of skill in half of the world.
Shemite. S. Bow prof. boosted point blank. +2 to 3 skill. desert boost. but -1 to saves

Cimmerian: Stat. mod. +1 to will. +2 to climb and hill/mountain boost... but -2 to 2 good skill.
Pict: stat mod. forest bonus. bonus against animal. +1 tumble and jump.
Nordheimer: stat. mod. cold bonus. +1 damage with sword. war sword prof. Probably the most brutal race.
Black kingdom: Some bonus with spear...

Don t get me wrong that not big difference but I think the above races bonus are sligthly better overall.

Cbrunish: Noble already got upgraded to 6 skills per level on my campain I don t think Pirate need that tough

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well as for fighting madness I guess it s still a powerfull feat even once per day?! its arguably one of the best combat boost you can get.

I guess it's nice to have, but 1/day for a handful of rounds... dunno, nothing to build a character around imho. If it worked on a basis like the Rage Points in the Pathfinder RPG, that would be different.

As for the best Dodge I did not talk about parry but dodge here.

Okay, so the Barb has a bit of an edge potential (!) against ranged attacks. That's fine, I guess. You were talking about melee characters before, so I don't quite see the point.

The fact you want to focus on strenght is purely speculative.

It's about as speculative as a D&D Wizard going for Int. It's a no-brainer. In D20 in general and Conan in particular, Strength is the single most important stat for any fighter-type. Not that I'm particularly enthusiastic about this. But after so many years of trying (starting with D&D 3E), I simply gave up on building an effective Dex-based warrior.

I think versatility should read "Melee weapon" from the start.

Heavens, no! Some of the most awesome fighting scenes are about a Barbarian starting to throw things that normally cannot be thrown, and actually hitting and killing that way.

Also I don t understand how it is easier?!!?

Huh? What?

Cimmerian: Stat. mod. +1 to will. +2 to climb and hill/mountain boost... but -2 to 2 good skill.

The "stat mod" you so readily gloss over means nothing less than a +1 to Hit and Damage with any melee weapon, which is certainly better than +1 to hit with one particular weapon. At the expense of 1 Skill point/level, of course. The skill penalties on what, non-combat Bluff and Diplomacy, are much less to worry about than any Saving Throw penalty.

The other three Barb races, however, are indeed less fortunate. Nordheimir get two proficiencies that do nothing for a Barbarian, and crippled Dodge due to Dex penalty.
Picts and BKTmen, well, I think these are intentionally kept a bit weaker because they usually fill the role of opposition.

 

[treeplanter]

Well it all depend what the value you attribute on skills.

I know we often run session with 1 or 2 combat encounter. But we roll many skill check. So here the fact you attribute more value to strenght over intelligence is arbitrary. Also you wrongly assumed that Cimmerian = Barbarian. What if you wanna make a Cimmerian borderer or thief more focused on skills? On the opposite you could really well make a Bossnian or shemite thief and really profit on the fact you get the bow proficiency.

Let look at it like this. If your +2 strenght worth the +1/+1 with bow (pretty fair i think?) and your -1 skills point per level worth the -1 to save (also seem fair) and the +1 to will worth the Shemite bow profiency (now i m generous) Shemite still get +2 to THREE skills while Cimmerian get +2 to Climb and -2 to Bluff AND diplomacy. That an 8 points difference.

Is it a huge difference? Not really.
Would I play a Shemite if I want to play a Cimmerian? Never
But I do think it me correct saying Shemite race have a slight advantage over the Cimmerian in this exemple.

"Heavens, no! Some of the most awesome fighting scenes are about a Barbarian starting to throw things that normally cannot be thrown, and actually hitting and killing that way. "

Melee or thrown weapon is that better? Certainly not bow. I agree the raging barbarian could hurl his axe at the bad ass monster but not sure I see the same babarian start using a longbow that don t seem so instinctive to me. The easier comment has nothing to do with you.

 

[Clovenhoof]

We-e-ell, I'll just say that I do count myself among the Optimizers, so I usually choose a race with the appropriate Favoured Class. When I choose Cimmerian, I'm gonna play Barbarian. Or rather: vice versa. Barbarian is my personal favourite class, so I look for a suitable race, and here Cimmerian is the best one.

Be that as it may, the recent thread activity has invoked some desire in me to try out a Borderer Archer. Well, we'll see. ^^

 

[treeplanter]

Well you re not comparing the race in that case its comparing a Cimmerian barbarian with a Shemit Nomad

Well let see the other classes:

Noble: The social class. Not as strong as the Soldier or fiercest but can sure be designed to hold his ground. Also note that it is the only character with a lot of blank level. I would have liked to see some filler ability in this spot. Regional feature put you re Bab comparable to the fighting class if you have your Favored weapon and give some race a nice bonus to skill (a really like hyrkanian and Zingaran RF). The big ability is clearly leadership specialy with the special bonus. Title is also nice it s a + 5 to reputation from start. Wealth is really nice but it his hard to play sometime specially when you want to put the player in harsh situation (ie no money and not much equipement). I try to emphase this ability by always giving the noble a sligthly better equipement (HQ weapon better armor ressources to hire ect) as a rule of tumb. As I said we give the Noble 6 skills point per level wich I think is a must. He is designed to be a skill character so having the same number as the pirate and fierciest doesn t represent his upgraded ressources and education and don t seem fair to me.

Thief: The pure striker. There s not much to say about the thief. He have decent defense lots of skill point. If he act first it s pretty much good night for anybody without uncanny dodge. He is a bit weak and easy to kill. As a town type character he won t last long if you put him in the middle of the desert! Also he is rather weak when the party get surprise and outnumbered (so when he don t get his sneak attack)

Pirate: Similar to the thief except you get a pretty good defense. You re less brutal than the thief but you can still easily one shot a suprised opponent. Ferocious attack and better defense make you a bit more usefull against multiple oponent or when denied your sneak attack.

Soldier: The figthing class. However at the expense of lot of skills. I ve tough of giving it 4 x 4 at first level and then 2 each other level otherwise it just seem to advantageous to me to start barb or borderer then switch soldier. The bonus feat mechanic make him the most customizable character as 2 soldier can really look totally different. Officier is also a nice addition. Having the best parry defense and access to the best armor make those bastard the hardest to kill in battle.

Overall I think those 4 classes are each good at what they do. However i think there is a small unbalance in skills point. Thief at 8 seem high and noble at 4 is low in my opinion. 2 for soldier is a bit low but in the other end you re the arguably the really best in combat so it s hard to say. Also i would have given the noble a candy ability on those blank level.

Never really tried the Scholar and temptress would be nice if someone comment those. I guess they both get the 8 skills point wich is nice

 

[Hervé]

treeplanter wrote:

He (the thief) is a bit weak and easy to kill. As a town type character he won t last long if you put him in the middle of the desert!

I confirm. The thief of our group really had a hard time during our desert campaign, especially during the Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia sessions...

Just when he thought things were getting better, I hurled the party in the Winter Northlands for Betrayer of Asgard. I guess hard times are far from being over for him... :twisted:

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yeah, the Thief is an Urban type, but I don't think of that as much of a problem; if he teams up with Fierce characters he'll be just fine in the wilds.
But in combat, he's really suitable only for backstabbing, since he has mediocre defense and no mobility or flanking protection. So you always need to keep him on the rim of the battlefield. And yes, a Thief does formidable damage, but it gets into overkill regions pretty quickly, and it doesn't matter much if you zonk your opponents with 28 or 44 points of damage.
The classical Rogue role in this game is best filled by the Pirate, since she gets decent sneak attack and all the mobility to flank without getting flanked herself.
However, you still need a Thief if you ever have to deal with traps of any kind. A must-have for any party.

 

[treeplanter]

Good catch on the overkill sneak attack.

Thief also seem like a pretty darn good multiclassing option to me, lot more than pirate. Adding those 1-2 extra sneak attack dice to the barbarian/nomad or borderer seem pretty neat. sneak attacking with a bossnian longbow and rapid shot ouch. and the 8 skill points miam

 

[Spongly]

Ichabod: Thanks for the insightful analysis. What I'm really worried about is that for two of the classes that both of us consider a bit of the weak side (Noble and Soldier) one of their main saving graces is that their abilities synergize well with very heavy armor and they're effective if they go the heavy armor tin can route.

I'm going to be running a real world Viking campaign (based on the Icelandic Sagas) so the characters won't have access to much in the way of heavy armor while the nobles won't get treated with anywhere near as much respect as they would in a more normal fuedal setting and there won't be much in the way of organized armies. This means that a lot of the noble and soldier bonuses will be negated for my campaign, which worries me.

4 skill points for level for soldiers seems a good idea, but what would you recommend to give nobles a little boost? Borderers will be OK in my campaign I think if I tweak ranged finesse (especially since Vikings weren't the biggest bow-users anyways) and nomads don't really fit so that should do it.

Nobles should get a good network of allies, since a noble in Iceland would basically be one of the Godi, the priest chieftains who run the country, and would have access to gangs of fighting men from among his thingmen. Maybe come up with an ability where he gets a bunch of stooges with a level or two in soldier that he can call upon. Armour though would basically be limited to a mail shirt, but one way to get round the problem is simply to decrease what armour soldier's an access, either through proficiencies or cost, so that only nobles can really get mail.

Vikings were actually keen bowmen too - it was considered an important skill even for kings to master, and they used pretty big longbows, so I think an archer should be fairly dangerous. I agree that soldiers need a skill boost for a viking game, and probably a better selection of class skills.

 

[Demetrio]

Viking bows, though often quite long had relatively low draw weights compared to (say) the longbow used by the English in the 100 Years War. The typical 6'+ Viking bow had a draw weight of about 40-65lbs whereas the English longbow, of similar length, had a draw weight in excess of 75lbs, averaging perhaps 90lbs or so and sometimes over 100lbs. Nearly twice as powerful.

As an aside, Mongol bows were generally more powerful, having different construction - though the most powerful English longbows are in fact about equal to the most powerful Mongol bows, on average the Mongol bows had higher draw strengths. The downside was that the Mongol bows, relying on glues, were quick to deteriorate in poor conditions. Especially prolongued damp.

 

[treeplanter]

Wow you guy are walking encyclopedia

 

[cbrunish]

Cbrunish: Noble already got upgraded to 6 skills per level on my campain I don t think Pirate need that tough

Good!! I agree wholeheartedly!! The Noble is not really that strong on the fighting end (better than a Thief only because of the better armour, and regional bonus) but with this class, skills seem to be a main theme.

But, I differ on the Pirate. Again the Pirate is stonger than a Thief or a Noble (due to better parry and two saves maxed out at +12). But this seems more of a skill based character. Imagine your pirate, you want skills such as balance, rope use, profession(sailor), and climb. And this just for basics. But their list of skills is impressive and I personally would want any one of them. 4 pts per level is just not going to cut it. And I would rather use a high score on say dex or str (even cha) over a high int just to get the bonus points.

And YES I am one of the people that like a high charisma score. I have found this be really usefull in campaigns. Especially with a high bluff and improved feint for the pirate or thief classes! :twisted:

 

[treeplanter]

Me like high charisma too

Can t support looking like shit lol

The thing with pirate is i was thinking i want him less skillsfull than the noble. You could make a compromise and give him 5. Or 6. whatever you like for your game is good

 

[Ichabod]

Regarding races, should really be a separate thread, though there are lots of similarities in terms of imbalances between classes and races. Just as a quick comment on races, for how we play, the -1 to saves of Shemites is a huge drawback to where I'm no longer that interested in making Shemite characters.

It takes quite a while to achieve overkill in Sneak Attack damage. Want to have at least 5d8 to guarantee MDSs. Just today, I saw a 14th level Zingaran pirate fail to do 20+ damage. Given that there isn't much reason to have more than 10 levels in thief, too much SA isn't all that realistic.

Pirate is really weird. In my point valuing all of the classes, pirate did well the first time around and still did well after I did an update that involved upvaluing BAB. On the other hand, I find them frustrating with their low skill ranks and with their completely nonsynergistic offensive combat abilities. I have yet to see a pirate effectively use both Ferocious Attack and SA in the same combat. If only going to use one and not the other on a regular basis, then they are getting useless specials which would heavily devalue them.

I do find a wastrel (thief, pirate) to be reasonable. Takes a while to get some of the hot stuff, but it has an okay number of skill ranks and a bit more balance in various aspects of combat - offense vs. defense, more useful in situations when SA isn't that helpful.

I find it completely bizarre that anyone cares about how good a race or class would be for archery. How exactly is someone getting an archer up to doing 20+ damage per shot?

The borderer's archery style is particularly awful as Shot On the Run is nigh unto useless. I mean, Rapid Shot is pretty useless too because one archer isn't going to kill anything that matters nine times out of ten, but if an archer can do any significant damage or if the archer just wants to be a major distraction, then it might do *something* whereas SOtR is just so pathetic.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Just as a quick comment on races, for how we play, the -1 to saves of Shemites is a huge drawback to where I'm no longer that interested in making Shemite characters.

Same here. Saves are like an Iron Maiden album: A Matter Of Life And Death. I just wouldn't take a race that bestows a save penalty.

Given that there isn't much reason to have more than 10 levels in thief, too much SA isn't all that realistic.

I agree, 10 Thief gives a pile of SA and some Special Abilities, and leaves you room to multiclass with something nice, maybe a Fierce class.

I have yet to see a pirate effectively use both Ferocious Attack and SA in the same combat.

Why not? Ferocious Attack gives you an Ini bonus, which increases your chance to go first, so you catch your enemies flat-footed and thus get in all that Sneak Attack. A high-level Pirate who chose ITWF can thus attack up to 6 opponents in the first round thanks to Greater Mobility, or even 8 with some clever multiclassing (i.e. getting your BAB to 16+).
Granted, you don't really need the FA bonus To Hit since a flat-footed opponent has DV10 anyway, it's the Ini bonus that really matters. So there is at least some synergy.

I find it completely bizarre that anyone cares about how good a race or class would be for archery. How exactly is someone getting an archer up to doing 20+ damage per shot?

I think the point about archery is not doing MD so often, but being able to stay out of harm's way while making pincushions out of your enemies. As I said, I haven't tried it yet with a PC. However, your best bet for MD would be of course a Hyrkanian or Stygian Bow with good Str rating and Improved Crit. Apart from that, tough luck unless you houserule some more, such as allowing a x1,5 Str bonus for bows (because you use two arms).

The borderer's archery style is particularly awful as Shot On the Run is nigh unto useless. I mean, Rapid Shot is pretty useless too because one archer isn't going to kill anything that matters nine times out of ten

I never checked out SotR, but if it sucks so much, then it needs to be fixed. ^^