Over/underpowered Classes

Daz

Mongoose
I'm trying to get my gaming group to give Conan D20 a shot (right now we have two Vanilla D&D games running and I'd like to try something different). However one player has heard from somewhere that the Conan classes are unbalanced so I'd like some advice about this issue to help convince my group to give Conan D20 a shot or what house rules to use to balance things a bit.

My impression is that Barbarians are a bit on the powerful side and that Nobles, Soldiers and archery in general are a bit gimpy.

Possible solutions:

-Making ranged the ranked finesse feat allow people to bypass armor just like melee finesse.
-Letting soldiers get the Formation combat abilities while by themselves.
-I'm not sure what to do with Nobles since a lot of their special abilities are things that I'd allow them to do anyway through good RP and high Charisma-based skill modifiers. Any suggestions here?
 
i dont think any of the classes are over or under powered, each has its own niche and generally you can be more powerful multiclassing than just taking one class.

-have a look at the discussion about the the best build for an archer, i gave what im using as my house rules to make range finesse better. it can be found here: http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22072

-not really needed, it's intended for mass comat style usage and should really stay like that otherwise it wouldnt be much of a formation. the soldier doesnt lose anything from the standard d20 fighter but instead gains some extra bonuses. one thing to suggest is that 3 of them take atleast 3 lvls of soldier and all take skirmisher formation so they all get +1 defense value when within 20ft of each other.

nobles are particularly effective in the social situations and when in the mass combat fights where they can stand in the middle of the group or unit and give orders , aid others, rally at higher lvls and lots of other cool things if you have the hyboria's finest and free companies books.
 
"i dont think any of the classes are over or under powered, each has its own niche and generally you can be more powerful multiclassing than just taking one class."
I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree. I love your additions for the archer, but wouldn't you agree that archers in Conan are weak if you play them by the book?

As for nobles, they definately have their areas of strength but many of their social abilities are the sort of things that I'd give to players anyway if they RP well and have high diplomacy/bluff/intimidate modifiers. So basically Nobles get abilities that are (at least for me as a DM) redundant. I'm wondering what sort of small bonus I could give to nobles that would balance that out.
 
Noble's bonuses are not all things that normal players can get. Bear in mind these are hierarchical societies: the Noble - Commoner divide is wider than a simple diplomacy roll can cover. Nobles are also much harder for NPCs to kill in any sort of civilised area. Local authorities who care nothing for the death of a wandering nomad or barbarian will act strongly at the death of a noble, even a foreign one. It is in no noble's interest to let commoners believe they can get away with that. Then, of course, there is ransom. A noble will be worth ransoming or holding as a hostage where a commoner would be killed out of hand.

Conan is not a game that encourages excessive specialisation. "the Archer" is a useful addition to the party, providing a large range of options that are unavailiable to a melee only party. However, a character solely devoted to archery is weak in many situations. An archer can be deadly in terrain where he can avoid his enemies or where time is less of an issue, he can whittle them down with no risk to himself. Archers can suppress mages and other back row types important to the enemy like helmsmen or lookouts. However, there will be situations where they will want to get into hand to hand, and they should take some abilities with this in mind. I think this is a feature of the system, not a problem.
 
Daz said:
I'm not sure I'd necessarily agree. I love your additions for the archer, but wouldn't you agree that archers in Conan are weak if you play them by the book?

I have been playing the game since the playtest and have not found any of the classes to be underpowered. The players with nobles have had a great time and never complained, and the guy playing the Bossonian archer was pretty much unbeatable - especially when he fought defensively.

And that archer was played by the book using Core feats from the original book (which did not include ranged finesse or anything like that).
 
but wouldn't you agree that archers in Conan are weak if you play them by the book?

only if you play them by the stereotype that archers are weak and weedy and thats why they hang way back from the melee. take a strength of 16 and a bossonian longbow and that gives you an ap of 8 which will pretty much penetrate most armour thats not heavy, which is what most people will be wearing.

conan really encourages you to know alot of different combat techniques and not just specialise in one weapon because you can get it uber enchanted and that will solve all your problems like in d@d. this is what really makes the barbarian powerful in conan his versatility, but by the same token i have a soldier in my group and he pretty much has all the 'improved' combat feats and can handle any situation in a combat with them.

as for the noble some of his social abilities are just awesome, ally is extremely handy to have and the read people one from hyboria's finest is just ridiculously cool allows you to allways take 20 on sense motive checks.
 
the read people one from hyboria's finest is just ridiculously cool allows you to allways take 20 on sense motive checks.
That sounds really cool, I assume that Hyboria's Finest has a lot of good stuff for nobles but I don't have a copy of the book :(
 
know its exspensive but even for npc ideas all 3 books are great and each have classes the players will whant to play or at least try 8)
 
I think the classes are fairly well balanced. I don't see why so many people feel the Barbarian to be overpowered, a well-built soldier can be just as deadly. Nobles can be a tad on the weak side unless your campaign emphasises social power structures.

Still, I havent seen any balance issues a good GM can't work around in play. Certainly not as bad as many other games!

Later.
 
This is ultimately a game about fighting, so fighting classes have a better chance early on. Classes that rely on Skills needing to be high or on Magic have to wait to excell.

It's ballanced in a genre sense. In otherwords, the classes that are meant to be strong in RHEs Hyboria are dominant and skill and feat building works out better for them for the most part.

Other than that, like Fox News...it's fair and ballanced.

:P
 
Well, in my group there is Barbarian/Borderer, Pirate, Scholar, Noble/Soldier and a Nomad who is mostly focused on archery.

That nomad archer is a real killer who can easily match our Barbarian/Borderer. In some fights he even uses his bow at melee situations, even although that gives his opponents chance to have AOO:s against him.
 
If I hadn't just finished a first draft of a class analysis wherein I tried assigning point values to everything, I probably wouldn't bother posting.

But, since I did, I'm amazed anyone finds the classes remotely balanced ... for anyone playing a typical PC who sees a wide variety of locales.

As the least complicated comparison, I'd start with the fighter classes: barbarian, borderer, nomad, soldier. While the barbarian gets numerous great abilities throughout the levels including what I consider the best ability in the game in Uncanny Dodge, borderers and nomads get the narrow favorite terrains and borderers get the even more narrow guide/swift tracker abilities.

I can understand NPC borderers and nomads as you could always have the favorite terrain bonuses in effect.

As to soldier, I found it came out even worse in my analysis. I don't think it's unusual that skills matter to our characters. Every other class gets at least double the number of ranks per level. Okay, you get a lot more feats, which is helpful when trying to put together powerful combinations of feats, but where you can end up with a comparable or even more powerful fighter than barbarian at whatever levels, the barbarian is going to be far more well-rounded. The soldier has a bunch of levels with either no feat or formation combat which isn't much better.

Our GM often comments that when he reads this forum, our group seems to live a completely different lifestyle. He attributes it to the number of nobles we've had and our social abilities. I attribute it to him taking those things into account as part of his style when other groups may emphasize more the combat prowess of the party. Anyway, as with borderer and nomad, I see noble being a class suited to NPCs. A lot of the comparative power either depends upon a particular locale or on influencing a group of NPCs. Maybe it's a kick for players to amass armies, but my observation is that people like individual power and the noble is just sad on its own.

Pirate came out way better in my analysis than I expected, as good as barbarian through the first ten levels. So, until I have anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise, I'm willing to not rant about it. Now, out of curiosity, I want to see a dedicated pirate as our party piratewise only has someone so multiclassed he isn't readily identifiable as anything.

I never had a problem with the value of thieves. I was willing to put them right up there with barbarians. My analysis has them being clearly superior, which may be true or may be that the point system needs work.

I don't have much of a sense of scholar. We've had them in the party, but we've never had anyone make good use of the magic rules. We played 20 sessions or whatever before the PC remembered defensive blast, even though I included it as a consideration in combat tactics when I'd post to our list (of course, no one else ever made use of the idea of party combat tactics ...). So, about the only interesting thing in my analysis, since it could be way off, is that scholar was comparable to thief if I penalized it for the requirement to pump knowledge skills and beat it easily if I didn't.

Is there even a point to this exercise? I mean, we and others have fun even with mechanical imbalances since there's a lot more to role-playing than roll-playing. I think there is. I think balanced games are more fun. I think not feeling screwed by trying to be in flavor or different is more fun. While someone can get a kick out of the challenge of playing a weak class, I would think that desire could be satisfied in other areas, in particular in choosing feats that aren't the obviously good ones.

As things stand, for any new character, I'd be hard pressed to see the interest in borderer, nomad, soldier, or noble except maybe for a two level splash for the borderer's Rapid Shot or the soldier's feats or as part of a challenge. I see that as a lost opportunity.

As for the changes I want to see made, the simplest is to jack up skill ranks for certain classes, especially soldier who comes out pretty close to nomad in my point system if he gets 4 ranks per level. To prevent people from just multiclassing two levels to snack up feats, I'd move the feat gains a bit.

For a major overhaul, I'd try to find a way to rewrite favorite terrain to make it more generally useful to a PC. I'd improve the combat style abilities for borderer, especially on the archery path. I'd give the borderer some real specials rather than "wow, it would be nice if we had a NPC to guide us faster through the woods today" abilities. And, so on and so forth down the line.

Meanwhile, where I find the imbalances in races, feats, and classes irritating as it punishes interesting character ideas, I don't really have a problem with ranged combat as things currently stand. I'd rather that finesse fighting were addressed. It's awful without sneak attack which just pushes people back into certain classes.
 
Sometimes I read the different analysis of the game and wonder if I'm missing something. I just run the game and we all have fun and some die and some survive and we roll the dice again next time. I just don't have the time or ability to look beyond "does it move the story (game) forward" and no one complains about powerful or not powerful. If a PC rolls up a Barbarian and rolls a crit when he needs to , then he is one powerful dude. Same for the Thief PC.

Honestly, I salute all you guys with encyclopedic evaluation & knowledge of the game. It's amazing info.
 
points values? yech. so what exactly did you ascribe as a value to each ability? by the way not everything is supposed to be totally balanced, not every class should be equal in fighting ability so dont complain that you cant fight as well as the soldier or barbarian if you take noble. the noble has many important additions he can give an adventuring party because as a gm it's your job to make the game both exciting and fun but also excrutiatingly difficult at times. so if they all take blunt minded, silent killing machines put them in situations were they need to use their wits and social skills to get out alive or atleast with all their precious gear and loot. not everything can be easily covered by game mechanics and shouldnt be otherwise there wouldnt be any roleplaying.

for my game i have 2 soldiers and a pirate (aswell as a thief when he feels like playing) and the pirate is definately the most lethal of them all but also the most fragile. it certainly doesnt help that she rolls alot of nat 20's while playing conan but it's just added to her persona of 'Kika the unstoppable'
 
Ichabod: Thanks for the insightful analysis. What I'm really worried about is that for two of the classes that both of us consider a bit of the weak side (Noble and Soldier) one of their main saving graces is that their abilities synergize well with very heavy armor and they're effective if they go the heavy armor tin can route.

I'm going to be running a real world Viking campaign (based on the Icelandic Sagas) so the characters won't have access to much in the way of heavy armor while the nobles won't get treated with anywhere near as much respect as they would in a more normal fuedal setting and there won't be much in the way of organized armies. This means that a lot of the noble and soldier bonuses will be negated for my campaign, which worries me.

4 skill points for level for soldiers seems a good idea, but what would you recommend to give nobles a little boost? Borderers will be OK in my campaign I think if I tweak ranged finesse (especially since Vikings weren't the biggest bow-users anyways) and nomads don't really fit so that should do it.
 
Krushnak said:
points values? yech. so what exactly did you ascribe as a value to each ability? by the way not everything is supposed to be totally balanced, not every class should be equal in fighting ability so dont complain that you cant fight as well as the soldier or barbarian if you take noble. the noble has many important additions he can give an adventuring party because as a gm it's your job to make the game both exciting and fun but also excrutiatingly difficult at times. so if they all take blunt minded, silent killing machines put them in situations were they need to use their wits and social skills to get out alive or atleast with all their precious gear and loot. not everything can be easily covered by game mechanics and shouldnt be otherwise there wouldnt be any roleplaying.

for my game i have 2 soldiers and a pirate (aswell as a thief when he feels like playing) and the pirate is definately the most lethal of them all but also the most fragile. it certainly doesnt help that she rolls alot of nat 20's while playing conan but it's just added to her persona of 'Kika the unstoppable'

Would it be safe to say that you aren't interested in analyzing the game? That's the sense I get from posts like these.

I don't really have any choice in the matter. It's in my nature to analyze games even when the analysis has to be fluffy, like it does when you talk about a RPG where how effective something is highly dependent upon the GM, the adventures, and other characters. In fact, it should be part of the GM's job to compensate for the strengths and weaknesses of the characters to cause them to be in better balance.

So, anyway, *my* fun is reduced when I see obvious imbalances because it encourages people along specific lines of character builds or to be less effective for no particular reason. For the former, having a character just like any other is of no interest to me. For the latter, I'm fine with being less effective if I choose to be but not have it imposed.

Put another way, as I just don't understand people who aren't into balanced games, what's the disadvantage of balance? It only affects those of us who care and we are happier when it exists while there seems to be precisely no penalty to the people who didn't care in the first place, barring confusing changes to the rules. Which, since the changes I'd be interested in are for a house game, don't affect anyone else.

Of course, you could feel that mechanics are largely irrelevant to role-playing, but then, why take any interest in this thread at all? I only took an interest in it because of the timing. Normally, I just figure there's not enough interest in the intellectual exercises I'm interested in and don't bother other than to occasionally rant about something I think is so obviously a problem that it boggles my mind that others don't.

As for pointing special abilities, I tried to convert everything into equivalent skill ranks with the marginal feats that give +2 to two different skills being pointed at 4 and estimating how valuable/desirable any ability was in comparison to one of those feats. As for combat effectiveness, I doubt the scholar would do well if that's all I cared about. The problem with the noble is that it really doesn't have that many special abilities and that many of them are highly limited by circumstances. I tried to value based on a general campaign. If the campaign is mostly a city affair with control of NPCs being essential, then noble is much more valuable (obviously). I'm perfectly interested in how many points people would value various abilities at; I'm certainly not too comfortable with a number of valuations and I tried to bias my numbers towards the middle to remove personal biases.
 
Ichabod, the problem is, you say the classes are unbalanced - the social or knowledge-based characters are underpowered. Ok, fine, but then you advocate giving the combat-oriented classes more skill points.

Skill points are a balancing factor for classes like noble, for instance. If you go and give combat classes more skills, then the classes will be even MORE unbalanced!!

Some classes are less valuable in a fight, but that's the strong suit of barbarian/soldier/pirate/etc. Nobles should have the social skills to avoid a fight, or the cash to hire people to do the fighting for them, or friends who can swing a greatsword. Nobles are quite valuable getting around a city, or commanding respect from civil servants, or seducing the queen's lady-in-waiting to gain entrance to the castle.

True, many GMs seem to be focused on combat vs. social interaction. Players should remember that they should have a say in the campaign direction. After all, they are the stars of the show. "There's an ancient treasure in Hyperboria? Bah, that's boring. I'm sure Aquilonia has plenty of treasure too!"

Also, if you discover you're underpowered in a fight, then multiclassing is for you. Multiclassing is not a bad thing - multiclassing is a GOOD thing! It's definitely to be embraced. There is absolutely no problem with taking a level or two in Noble, then a couple in Soldier to get some combat prowess, some Scholar to get some knowledge skills and magic, on to Thief to get some stealth, then back to Noble! There's nothing wrong with switching EVERY level! Of course, single-classing is fine too, just be prepared to embrace your limitations - lack of personal fighting prowess for scholars/nobles, lack of non-combat skills for barbarians/soldiers/pirates.
 
applejuicefool: As I see it, the problem with Nobles isn't that they're good at social interaction instead of combat, but that they lose combat power and don't receive much in return.

Lets imagine a party that does a lot of traveling around (as most Conan parties do) and either has a Noble with 16 Charisma and maxed out social skills or a X Class with 16 Charisma and maxed out social skills. What can the noble do social-wise that Class X can't?

Let's see:

Title: Not of much use if you're away from your home culture.
Rank Hath Its Priviledges: Not of much use if you're away from your home culture.
Wealth: Useful but with the frequency with which PCs gain and lose big stacks of money, not too useful especially considering its hard to get an allowance from your uncle in Aquilonia when you're in Khitai.
Special Regional Features: A mixed bag, but most don't boost the Noble's social skils at all.
Comeliness: Useful, but you can do the same with a feat.
Entertainer: Useful, but you can do the same with a feat.
Family Ties: Not of much use if you're away from your home culture.
Refuge: Not of much use if you're away from your home culture.
Reputation: Useful.
Savoir-Faire: Useful.
Smear others: I'd let people RP this without having the special ability.
Lead By Example: Doesn't boost social skills.
Enhanced Leadership: Doesn't boost social skills at all.
Rally: Doesn't boost social skills at all.
Do You Know Who I am: Not of much use if you're away from your home culture.

So the abilities that nobles get either are mostly either combat related, not of much use if you're away from your home culture (as many PCs are much of the time). can be replicated with a feat or are the sort of thing that most DMs would let a player do without a specific ability for it. Because of this in most cases except for the very minor bonuses that Savoir-Faire and Reputation give you there's really NOTHING a noble can do social-wise that X Class with 16 Charisma and maxed out social skills can't do.

By all means have a class that's excellent at social skills but sub-par at combat (I think the Temptress class does a good job of this) but what exactly makes the noble so good at social skills that justifies low combat ability?
 
By all means have a class that's excellent at social skills but sub-par at combat (I think the Temptress class does a good job of this) but what exactly makes the noble so good at social skills that justifies low combat ability?

because the noble is also a good leader and even if he isnt in his homeland will still be treated with more respect than an average traveller in any society that has nobility. and yes there is a feat similar to comeliness but you can stack them together and be uber shiny. besides if you know specifically that the group and campaign is going to take you to the ends of the earth and back then if you take noble dont whinge about it, you knew what to expect and just disregarded it. doesnt mean theres anything wrong with the classes or even your choice just dont complain because you intentionally gimped yourself.

ichabod i do analyse the game i just dont try attribute a direct value to every ability i just see it for what it is. barbarians are versatile fighters it's their strength and conan really encourages this style of play, pirates are also quite good for this reason but then you have classes like the borderer and nomad and are more specialised fighters but when they are in their favoured terrain and using their preffered weapons they are awesomely powerful. it's the trade off between the classes. scholar's can be quite brutal fighters but will never match the skill or survivability of the soldier. however they do get access to some awesome spells like gellid's bones and all the prestigitation spells.

the reason i dont like balancing everything too much is it makes it all unrealistic. balance doesnt exsist in real life so why should it exsist in a fantasy world? not everyone is the same and not every ability/skill is the same so it's almost impossible to balance it all anyway.
 
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