Not Another White Star Thread (TM)

[nekomata fuyu]

Personally, I like the knife fight WS because it encourages the right style of play. If after playtesting it turns out that it does overly nerf the WS power-wise, I'd then say to keep the knife fight aspect and maybe add an AD here or there to bring the power level back up.
The key point though is that we need to take the risk of breaking the WS in order to get it using the right general playing style, and then we can worry about tweaking it to the right power level if necessary. The knife fight WS is a great first step even if it does turn out to be underpowered in its current format.

 

[Greg Smith]

Personally I think the problem with the WS is not it's weapons, but its tougness based on multiple defences.

Certain races bypass that - anyone with emines (which with the Abbai and EA getting them is almost everyone), the Shadows, especially since they can now do the accurate beam, and fleets with large numbers of fighters (whose small amounts of damage isn't negated by adaptive armour).

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I can live with the multiple defences if it's balanced by a need to drive yourself onto the enemy's guns. Limiting the range on the WS isn't so much a case of reducing the firepower as it is effectively introducing an anti-defence.

 

[Greg Smith]

True. I'm not sure whether the proliferation of emine weapons doesn't already do that.

If they remain availble to all EA fleets, we are essentially adding them to 5 new fleets (including Psi Corps). In fact, allowing for the League, there are only a handful of races that don't have access to them.

I do think the 'knife-fight' WS is a big change. I think it needs extensive playtesting.
I also think if you want to bring it into enemy weapon range, it needs reducing to a range of 8", otherwise it makes the ship no worse against Narn, Abbai, Early EA etc.

 

[H]

which in itself is stupid, giving everyone e-mines won't fix the whitestar, but it will piss the whitestar, and drakh raider, and minbari players off a lot. what was once an almost unique Narn weapon (and one brakiri ship) has become so widely available, it takes the flavour away from a completely different race to overcome the whitestars defensive strength :-(

 

[Ripple]

yup...

(don't forget the Drazi in the mine screwed races...)

If the intention is to push the 'knife fight' version I would prefer to see the beam go to a very short range with a mild advantage to the pulsar. I was under the impression we see that in the show, it means that a white star trying to snipe has to work with others to beat interceptor/fighter support and given the beam has the greatest potential for damage output, I want the star to have to take the risk for the greater part of its firepower not just a mild advantage.

I prefer two ranges for the same reasons listed in a post above, I want the player to have choices that are both good enough to make it worth thinking about. Previously the decision to stand back was to much a no brainer given the firepower you gained.

So... maybe 12 on the pulsars, 8 to 10 on the beam. The reality is if it's 10, the Abbai capitol ships will still just die horribly, as will some narn.



Ripple

 

[mrambassador1]

Well, unfortunatly the dice gods hate me

Nooo, you should never say that, it just angers them more. What you should say is that you have aggregiously wronged them in the past for which you are truly sorry, and will gladly accept their right and just retribution for as long as they deem it right and just to dish out.

 

[Juzza]

raid level ship that are as good or better IMHO then a white star

Teshlan fast crusier (mimbari)
var nic (narn)
shadow scout (shadows)
xill (vree)

Skirmish ships that are as good as or better in pairs then a white star IMHO

Vorchan demos (centauri)
ka tan (narn)
xeel war carrier (vree)

I do agree that ISA is a poor match up to earth fleets But then i think earth fleets are a poor machup to alot of other fleets mimbari and vree come to mind. But then I think thats earths failing not ISA's

hows this then for my fix.
Leave white star as is change the weapons to:
neutron cannon front arc range 18 inch, 6 Attack dice, tripple damage, SAP, Precise,
the pulsars turrent arc, range 6 inchs, 4 attack dice, AP ,double damage, accurate


I dunno if I can be bothered reading a boo hoo whine fest.

 

[Hindsight]

Hindsight - the reason for the proposed "knife fight" White Star is to make the game more fun. Most people agree that the White Star is overpowered against virtually any opponent. Even those where it isn't, the ISA can take other options if they know their foe in advance and they certainly aren't worse off in specific matchups than almost any other race.

The reason behind the "knife fight" version as opposed to the "sniper" version in the current playtest pack is for exactly the reasons you outline - having 2AD is a lot more fun for both sides with a little more predictability to the beam rolls. Also, the White Star in the show is much more of a ship that dives into action, does its stuff and pulls out again before it hits again later on.

Triggy I wrote the Knife Fight variant. I am familiar with it lol.

One of the play testers told us, in that thread, that Matt didn't like it, and that was that. If you're changing that story, this is one of those reasons a Friday Feature or some kind of regular communication from Matt would really help us feel like work is being done and where we're at right now.

EDIT - Please also note the difference between our Knife Fight variant, and what I spoke of, the "-1 AD if you do anything else" variant that was what Matt proposed for our Playtesting. That was too much of a nerf, and took the WS from one of the best, to barely worth using.

I support the Knife Fight White Star, obviously, as it was my post that said "Holy Crap Lets Do This!" I drop my avatar, and you forget who I am?

 

[Da Boss]

raid level ship that are as good or better IMHO then a white star

Teshlan fast crusier (mimbari)
var nic (narn)
shadow scout (shadows)
xill (vree)

Skirmish ships that are as good as or better in pairs then a white star IMHO

Vorchan demos (centauri)
ka tan (narn)
xeel war carrier (vree)

I do agree that ISA is a poor match up to earth fleets But then i think earth fleets are a poor machup to alot of other fleets mimbari and vree come to mind. But then I think thats earths failing not ISA's

hows this then for my fix.
Leave white star as is change the weapons to:
neutron cannon front arc range 18 inch, 6 Attack dice, tripple damage, SAP, Precise,
the pulsars turrent arc, range 6 inchs, 4 attack dice, AP ,double damage, accurate


I dunno if I can be bothered reading a boo hoo whine fest.

I still stick with the WS as a beam (and is, personally but there you go)

re your comparision - are you saying that a Var'nic is better than a WS one on one ?? :shock: I agree a Shadow Scout is better one on one but again not convinced the other two are. Two of the three skirmish you list are being reduced dramtically in power.

All are good raid ships - as is the Avenger, Balvarin (It is seldmon I am without one in a game) and have specific roles..........

of course the ISA can also have three of your four "better" raid ships as allies.............
:wink:

 

[Da Boss]

White Stars are vulnerable to fighter attack, but they can dodge the fighters' weapons. I know of no fighter unit with an accurate weapon.

White Star fighters do I think ?

 

[Juzza]

somthing i have never used is allies that would be somthing i would change. I don't think they are needed As i think white stars should be stand alone force.

as for beams i not a big fan as i either roll hot or cold and win or lose on that. Which is something to luck based for my liking. Plus with the non beam weapon EA gets there interceptors.

I'm a big fan of the xill and how my mate uses it it just walks the floor with me once hes got the ini sink on me i have real trouble trying to fend it off. but then hes a really good player.

allso my mate did a good way of compareing ships. On average dice can two xill kill a white star in one turn rolling average dice? can two white stars kill a xill on average rolling average dice do the math. not counting crit hit.

the var nic 1 on 1 will not stand up to a white star unless the var nic can get the bore site on, but in game terms I rate as powerful as a white star it is fast enough and has decent guns and is hull 6

I'm not not with the play on the changes so I don't know what been nerfed or powered up either.

 

[Foxmeister]

hows this then for my fix.
Leave white star as is change the weapons to:
neutron cannon front arc range 18 inch, 6 Attack dice, tripple damage, SAP, Precise,
the pulsars turrent arc, range 6 inchs, 4 attack dice, AP ,double damage, accurate

That's a fix??!!??

I take it that this is supposed to be a humourous attempt at a fix, because what you've created here is a horrific monster, taking the ship out of the realm of borderline broken, right into busted beyond belief territory.

6AD SAP P TD???? Yes, it may be interceptable, but what about those races that don't have interceptors or have to use fighters to intercept (which die quickly)?

In addition, your Pulsars have made it even less likely that anyone is going to risk the ship going into short range, so the ship will become a sniper for *everyone*.

Oh, and by the way, the Var'Nic is a good Raid level ship but is not comparable to the WS!

I dunno if I can be bothered reading a boo hoo whine fest.

Funny that, because that's what you've written!

Regards,

Dave

 

[H]

I must have missed something on the var'Nic?

Yup, the Var'Nic is a superb raid level ship, but my money, what little I have left thanks to the government, would all go on a whitestar. assuming that the Narn win initiative, they would get one beam shot and torp shot shot off against the dodging adaptive armoured closed blast doors ship before it flys right past and then just sits in a rear arc. zapping away with it's beam, and pulsars with the var'Nic completely powerless. . . and if they lost inistiative, then they get some nice torpedos to fire. . .

 

[Foxmeister]

they lost inistiative, then they get some nice torpedos to fire. . .

Which with only 2AD, stand a very good chance of being dodged.......

Regards,

Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

which in itself is stupid, giving everyone e-mines won't fix the whitestar, but it will piss the whitestar, and drakh raider, and minbari players off a lot. what was once an almost unique Narn weapon (and one brakiri ship) has become so widely available, it takes the flavour away from a completely different race to overcome the whitestars defensive strength :-(

I don't think that was actually the intent, but it is the result.

 

[H]

indeed, such a shame it has happened.

 

[katadder]

White Stars are vulnerable to fighter attack, but they can dodge the fighters' weapons. I know of no fighter unit with an accurate weapon.

WS fighters but then you shouldnt be facing them in WSs, they are just a pain in the ass for drazi, drakh raiders and Liatis

 

[Hindsight]

indeed, such a shame it has happened.

 

[Triggy]

which in itself is stupid, giving everyone e-mines won't fix the whitestar, but it will piss the whitestar, and drakh raider, and minbari players off a lot. what was once an almost unique Narn weapon (and one brakiri ship) has become so widely available, it takes the flavour away from a completely different race to overcome the whitestars defensive strength :-(

Hopefully EA won't get their fusion missiles (or at least if they do it will be Crusade EA only). Also, if I were a White Star, I'd rather have an accurate, mini-beam than a triple/quad damage, precise, beam hit me!! This would then only leave the Narn, Gaim and pak'ma'ra as the races able to leverage the emine rule to any degree. I agree that giving more races access to emine weaponry is not the way to "solve" the White Star/Stealth issues.

Hindsight - the reason for the proposed "knife fight" White Star is to make the game more fun. Most people agree that the White Star is overpowered against virtually any opponent. Even those where it isn't, the ISA can take other options if they know their foe in advance and they certainly aren't worse off in specific matchups than almost any other race.

The reason behind the "knife fight" version as opposed to the "sniper" version in the current playtest pack is for exactly the reasons you outline - having 2AD is a lot more fun for both sides with a little more predictability to the beam rolls. Also, the White Star in the show is much more of a ship that dives into action, does its stuff and pulls out again before it hits again later on.

Triggy I wrote the Knife Fight variant. I am familiar with it lol.

One of the play testers told us, in that thread, that Matt didn't like it, and that was that. If you're changing that story, this is one of those reasons a Friday Feature or some kind of regular communication from Matt would really help us feel like work is being done and where we're at right now.

EDIT - Please also note the difference between our Knife Fight variant, and what I spoke of, the "-1 AD if you do anything else" variant that was what Matt proposed for our Playtesting. That was too much of a nerf, and took the WS from one of the best, to barely worth using.

I support the Knife Fight White Star, obviously, as it was my post that said "Holy Crap Lets Do This!" I drop my avatar, and you forget who I am?

LOL, I was on holiday for two weeks and hadn't been on the forum in much of a way for about a month when this all came out - I had no idea who created the knife fight version until now.

Aside from the fact that I think either fix is balanced (although not necessarily as fun as each other), Matt may or may not be open to the knife fight version. Greg, katadder and I fed back to him on popular sentiment (without too much playtesting) and Matt's happy to keep or drop the -1AD "if you do anything else" version but there is no indication that he is willing to go for the knife fight version or not.

However, the fact that very, very few people have actually done and reported any playtesting means that there is actually very little to feed back to Matt. Debate and opinion is one thing but nobody (including the playtesters) has been briefed to debate the playtest pack without actual playtesting evidence. Instead, most people have debated the issues, leaving little playtesting and very little for us to report. The Narn CBD and the Centauri hunting packs are the biggest two to have plenty of playtesting and as such are definitely being looked at for the next playtest back.