New Gaim

[silashand]

Hop these odd ramblings help the discussion. I'm of the firm belief that you should play against a list before making a call on it.

I agree. However, the above is my preliminary evaluation based on the games I played with the old list. A someone else noted, certain fleets will do well vs the Gaim, some may do poorly (I've yet to think of one that falls into the latter except perhaps the Abbai), and then they have a ridiculous number of attack dice to throw at the fighters anyway. Eventually they will fail a dodge or two.

That "primary weapon" can only do 3AD P/SAP/DD per target per turn!

I've noticed that too. Odds are that only one will crit and with a one-use weapon I don't see it as being all that great personally. You'd have to get *really* lucky for it to be a threat in most games. Unfortunately, I'd rather not have to rely so heavily on luck. JMO though. Using the above example against a hull 5 ship, two would go through doing 4pts of damage and a 2/3 chance that one would be a crit of some kind. Given that crits range in effect from pointless to obscene, it's highly unlikely that it will accomplish much overall, unlike massive numbers of unstoppable, triple damage beam weapons from fleets like ISA or Minbari. Also given that the ISA's beams are accurate, they quite easily shoot down the breaching pods without blinking.

Cheers, Gary

 

[animus]

I'd like to see Mongoose post the fleet on its own outside of S&P for easier location for new players and post the pdf on the site. It would also give them another chance to get the layout right!

 

[Tzarevitch]

The Minbari do very well with the revision - suberb AAF and low damage scores help them..............

amusingly ( :twisted: ) the Narn suffer most - higher damage and low AF scores across the fleet.

Not really. Narn AF is e-mines. G'Kariths didn't have a problem with speed 8 BPs before and certainly have fewer problems with speed 6. Suicide fighters are much easier now too as they are slower. Unlike most races Narn ships tend to have high troops scores (with some exceptions) and removing the broken Gaim BP rule makes it far harder for the Gaim to take a Narn ship by boarding action.

Truthfully, the Narn were one of the better races taking on Gaim before and now the Gaim are easier. :twisted:

Tzarevitch

 

[Burger]

I'd like to see Mongoose post the fleet on its own outside of S&P for easier location for new players and post the pdf on the site. It would also give them another chance to get the layout right!

Thats what ship viewers are for
And the Gaim fleet will be in the P&P book, too.

 

[skavendan]

I'd like to see Mongoose post the fleet on its own outside of S&P for easier location for new players and post the pdf on the site. It would also give them another chance to get the layout right!

Thats what ship viewers are for
And the Gaim fleet will be in the P&P book, too.

Ah burgers site has all the information on. He's very on top of the situation.

And it's nice to see the screams and moans of gaim players.

Welcome to the real world time to unplug I think the new list is far more balanced but as stated they do have a campaign advantage, being able to throw your fighters / pods away and not have to pay to get them back if done right can be a massiv advantage in a war of attrition (probably spelt that wrong).

 

[silashand]

And it's nice to see the screams and moans of gaim players.

You mean like the screams and moans of the poor ISA players with the last list? Sorry, my sympathy meter is broken... ;-)

As I said, I like a lot of the changes. I just think they went too far is all.

Cheers, Gary

 

[skavendan]

And it's nice to see the screams and moans of gaim players.

You mean like the screams and moans of the poor ISA players with the last list? Sorry, my sympathy meter is broken... ;-)

As I said, I like a lot of the changes. I just think they went too far is all.

Cheers, Gary

Don't know your showing your age now Gary :wink: I wasn't around when that happened.

ISA just get everything anyway!

 

[Taran]

Also given that the ISA's beams are accurate, they quite easily shoot down the breaching pods without blinking.

Cheers, Gary

No, they're not.
The pulsars, the secondary weapons are. Not the beams.

 

[wkehrman]

It is possible I am jaded from playing against ISA and an entirely hull 6 EA fleet on many occasions. I'm sure that skews my experiences somewhat, and why I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for those complaining their ISA were so vulnerable to the last fleet - IMO that was simply a farce. IMO an entire fleet with dodge that is also fast is more abusive than a slow one with the emines any day of the week.

Perhaps, but they are effectively one-use only so if you don't get decent ones you're screwed. Against any ship without AF, sure, they will work well. But even mediocre AF will mean you only get a couple at any given time. I honestly don't find them all that effective as people claim really.

Cheers, Gary

For the record, the Delphi is hull 5. :wink:

As for the rest, I think this will solve the more pressing problems of mission killing half your fleet with 6-4 crits!
:lol:

 

[silashand]

Also given that the ISA's beams are accurate, they quite easily shoot down the breaching pods without blinking.

Cheers, Gary

No, they're not.
The pulsars, the secondary weapons are. Not the beams.

Sorry, misspoke. However, the point stands: Accurate/AP/DD means they kill pods on a 4+. With a minimum of 4AD each, they can easily kill 2 per turn if they happen to be close enough together.

As I said, my sympathy meter is broken... ;-)

Cheers, Gary

 

[silashand]

For the record, the Delphi is hull 5. :wink:

Sorry, I forgot that you actually *do* field a hull 5 ship once in a while... ;-)

As for the rest, I think this will solve the more pressing problems of mission killing half your fleet with 6-4 crits!
:lol:

Yes, now it only loses half it's firepower ;-).

Cheers, Gary

 

[Ripple]

Just wanted to chime in on the issue of pods and crits...

Pods... the speed six issue is not relevant as the pods should be launched in the turn before you want them to hit. So scramble, move in, launch your 5 pods at virtual contact range... if your target has been slowed down, adrifted, no SA'd or crippled by the combined e-mines and beams in the previous turn and he'll need an AF score of 6 or better to have any reasonable chance of surviving... pretty rare for any ship lower than battle. If the AF is used on the pods then your crewed missiles get a free run... I just don't see it as that hard to get 'something' through on most ships.

Crits... yes the mines don't crit, but you are still killing many skirmish ships outright with the number of e-mines you can throw from most fleets, and likely two at a time. Plus you have very good total AD of beams once you close (thought it was range 12... not point blank), with beams ability to roll up you will likely get plenty of crits that way, and you don't need a ship to go adrift necesarrily... knock out AF/interceptors (trait loss), speed reductions, troop loss... all make your secondary attacks much stronger.

Ripple

 

[Believer in G'Lan]

Owning Narns (I'm reluctant to say playing as I've still not ever actually played the game :shock: ) I looked at the new fighters rule and winced, since most of the narn ships can be attacked like most other races ships of one PL higher, and the T'Loth(9 at raid!), T'Rann(9 at raid!), T'Rakk(5 at skirmish!) taking hits like most ships two PL's higher.

If Triggy is right, the printed article is wrong and it only applies to suicide fighters then its not as bad as it sounds in the magazine.

Although allowing the largest number of precise, super-ap, double damage suicide attacks against ships which have minimal AF, no advanced defences and whose biggest problem is criticals still looks very painfull (arguably to a point where those three ships at least are struck from the fleet list if the oponent is/might be gaim!)

 

[skavendan]

I believe the rule is in referrence to fighters suicide attacking a ship.

However we do say fighters in stem contact ignore that ships stealth thus this rule could be used for how many fighters could mob round a ship and beat said ships stealth?

 

[armbarred]

Actually for ignoring Stealth it's not stem contact, it's base contact. Still a difference with in the rules.

I would say that this rule does only apply to suicide fighters, and let however many normal fighter flights can get in range get in range to shoot.

As for the Narn, well honestly you have no chance of being suicided by that many I'm guessing. And it honestly gives you a reason to field Frazi's. Keep them on intercept duty.

 

[skavendan]

I think Frazi's are quiet good!

The mines will stop most of the fighters/pods as stated it's don't matter so much for the narn.

 

[Court Jester]

The new rule effects craft that would have to make contact with the hull of the enemy ship to effect it. This means suicide craft and breaching pods.

Thats how I read it anyhow.

During the movement phase you declare how many craft are moving into stem contact (based on /10+2) and move them onto the targets base. AF can target and remove them as threats, thus reducing the numbers that can attack them for that turn.

 

[Triggy]

The new rule effects craft that would have to make contact with the hull of the enemy ship to effect it. This means suicide craft and breaching pods.

Thats how I read it anyhow.

During the movement phase you declare how many craft are moving into stem contact (based on /10+2) and move them onto the targets base. AF can target and remove them as threats, thus reducing the numbers that can attack them for that turn.

This is exactly correct.

 

[armbarred]

Actually, I think the best mechanic might be to take the flights that make stem contact and put them in a group off to the side. Actually putting them on the base will mean that you are actually also affecting the number of flights that can make base contact, as there is only so much space available on the base.

 

[Court Jester]

I'm sure that whatever method chosen, as long as it is agreed before the game and used throughout then you should be okay.