New Gaim

[raverrn]

Alright, I've got some pretty mixed feelings about this revision - as I'm sure anyone who plays Gaim should and will.

First off - The Skirmish Queen. Frankly, I don't see how this managed to make it through playtesting. It was a skirmish point that carried a skirmish point of fighters, with the addition of a hull 6, 40" range, 8AD, AP turreted weapon. I mean, seriously?

The new one is a HUGE improvement - it's not longer a no brainer, but still pretty well armed & armored for a skirmish point. The vastly decreased range, however, makes those tasty double VPs all too exposed. All in all an excellent improvement.

This brings me to my next point - the Gunship. Another very good move here. It retains a specific identity from the queenship, but seems to be almost an equally good expenditure of points. I'm not sure if one flight of fighters will cut it, but only playtime can prove me right or wrong.

While I'm on a roll, let's look at the the new Queen - I couldn't be happier. It's about time Gaim got a War choice, and I like it. It has heavy firepower and swarms of fighters, but it's worth enough VPs that you have to dedicate your fleet to protecting it. (As the Gaim should play, imho.)

Finally the fighters - they look like minor changes, but I don't see anything to be too angry about - suicide fighers shouldn't loose too much effectiveness, and regular fighters gaining more mobility is nice and Gaim-like. While I'm on the topic, the base contact clarification - It's about friggin' time. I'm ecstatic this has been cleared up at least somewhat.

Now to the not-so-good: The Assault Ship: What? What did this poor thing ever do to you? It was nerfed four times: Fighters and Breachers halved, Hull reduced, Breaching Pods speed dropped to 6, and losing the Gaim close-assault rule. What did it get to make it worth taking? Uh...
This ship (the ship that made me buy the fleet, which makes me a tad bitter) is absolutely worthless now. Totally. In every way. If I had to choose, I'd pick Stak scouts over this POS. Which brings me to:

Stak Scouts: You made them worse. Wha...?

Finally the Carrier: Personally, (and this is with no playtesting, so I could be wrong) I think it was cut back a bit too far. Anything that can hold 12+ fighters should have the Fleet Carrier rule. It's not like having FC on it in the first place was all that horrific -I'd be happy if my opponents ran them close to the front line to take advantage of the rule, because the carrier is damned easy to kill. Still, I agree it needed toning down, and could probably use less fighters. My only concern is that a fleet dependent on fighters has to go all the way to Battle to find a Fleet Carrier, and can the only take 1.

To sum it up. Good work was done, bad work was done. My major complaint is that the Gaim's role as a close-combat boarding powerhouse has been violently and suddenly removed - they are no more a boarding threat than any other race. This is the reason I picked up the race in the first place, the reason I play orks in BFG. It saddens and angers me that this seems sprung on right after the closing of the lines - I don't know if I have the ability (or even the patience) to start a Claweagle based Drazi fleet.

 

[silashand]

Now to the not-so-good: The Assault Ship: What? What did this poor thing ever do to you? It was nerfed four times: Fighters and Breachers halved, Hull reduced, Breaching Pods speed dropped to 6, and losing the Gaim close-assault rule. What did it get to make it worth taking? Uh...
This ship (the ship that made me buy the fleet, which makes me a tad bitter) is absolutely worthless now. Totally. In every way. If I had to choose, I'd pick Stak scouts over this POS.

I have to agree. It is hardly looking like a worthwhile choice now compared to the rest of the fleet. I really don't know what they were thinking by nerfing it so much. In a lot of ways it was the only really good ship the Gaim had (barring the overpowered skirmish queen), but this incarnation it's pretty lame IYAM. Any one or two of the above might have been good, but all four? As I said earlier it either has to be tough enough to weather a long and arduous barrage of firepower in order to close with the enemy and launch enough craft to complete its mission, or it has to be able to launch a lot of them quickly once it gets there. Now it can do neither very well. It's a shame really as of all the models it's my favorite. I will still try it, but I'm not sure it will find a place in my fleet now.

Which brings me to:

Stak Scouts: You made them worse. Wha...?

I know. They had minimal usefulness before, now they're even less of an option. Sure, they added 2 hull points and gave the lasers an 8" range, but really. What role do they think this thing is going to have in the fleet anyway? If they were going to give it such pathetic abilities they should have made it 2 per patrol point or make the beams double damage like the rest in the fleet or something. It's only real usefulness now is reducing stealth, and against most races that's not an issue. Barring that, buying a ship solely for the initiative sink requirement seems like a pretty lame idea IYAM.

they are no more a boarding threat than any other race.

Again, I have to agree with this sentiment. Though I like the majority of the changes, after re-reading the list a few times I think in some ways the fleet was cut back too much. For a race that relies on swarming over the enemy, their fighters may be numerous, but they are very weak overall (almost as poor as raiders really). I understand the old assault drones rule was far too powerful, but I would have thought a +1 bonus the turn they assault would not be too powerful and still retain the feel of them being genetically engineered for this purpose. From the background I'm not sure any other race could truly stand against them in one-on-one combat since even the Narn got slaughtered by them when they tried to invade the Gaim homeworld. As it is now, they are no different than anyone else in the game.

As I noted before, I do like the majority of the list. However, after much re-reading and thinking I believe the changes went a bit too far. I will try them and see how fun they are to play and hope for the best I guess.

Note: in reading through the campaign refits, I think result 4 may be a leftover from the previous list. It says any one photon bomb weapon gains the Super AP, Double Damage and Slow Loading traits. Given that all Gaim photon bombs now are DD/SL, should this not be revised to something else? Gaining SAP is nice I guess, but not much of a refit IYAM. I think perhaps it should say "gains the SAP and Triple Damage traits (but is still slow loading)" like the Narn weapons? Just curious as it seems a bit off. If it's correct as is, that's fine. Just as I said SAP alone doesn't seem like much of a refit, especially for one of the less common ones.

Cheers, Gary

 

[Greg Smith]

The assault ship was toned down for two reasons:

It was unbalanced. Compare it the Nova - they are actually quite similar, yet the assault ship has better defences, more flights, and the carrier trait.

In playtesting, once we'd we gotten the rest of the fleet about right, the Gaim were still winning through boarding.

----
The Stak scout has a role. Since Klikkita conversion isn't automatic, they will spend some time attacking with their regular guns - and scouting gives them a reroll.

 

[Ripple]

I have to disagree with the above assessment of the changes, at least as far as boarding goes. You have enormous numbers of troops per pl point, vastly more than other races.

They are somewhat harder to employ, but the any ship that goes adrift can be safely considered lost to the Gaim. You still have more breaching pods that most races as well... more than enough to overwhelm a single ships AF given you also have fighters attacking. The assault ship on scramble scramble will launch five pods, that almost guaranties that you'll get one through. It only takes a couple of troops to destroy most ships once aboard.

Add in the ships 10 AD of DD Beam, admittedly with short range and scattered arcs... but still, it's moments of glory will be large and dramatic.

The scout is also not bad for a patrol ship. You have 5+ stealth and a flight and a 2 AD beam. The ONLY issue with this ship compared to other non-twofer patrol hulls is the requirement to be at range 8 weakens your stealth. Your scout does more than lower stealth btw, it twin links your regular fighter attacks. Given how many fighters you will be trying to field it's not to be laughed at. Try getting something useful out of the Eyehawk or the Shyarie most games.

War carrier has low hull but is huge for it's PL... good ship...
Battle queen is a powerful carrier...

Ship I would complain about is the skirmish level gunship... that one feels under ranged on it's beam...

Ripple

 

[silashand]

In playtesting, once we'd we gotten the rest of the fleet about right, the Gaim were still winning through boarding.

Even after slowing down the pods to 6"? That sounds odd. Almost any fleet should be able to avoid them as long as they aren't crippled I would think. Since emines can't crit, crippling doesn't happen all that often with the Gaim I've noticed. Crits are king in this game and for a race whose primary weapon cannot do that, it seems off. But anyway, I will take your word for it and see how they play.

The Stak scout has a role. Since Klikkita conversion isn't automatic, they will spend some time attacking with their regular guns - and scouting gives them a reroll.

As I have found, a reroll for a weapon that has no special traits and is susceptible to interceptors doesn't work all that often. Ah well...

Cheers, Gary

 

[silashand]

They are somewhat harder to employ, but the any ship that goes adrift can be safely considered lost to the Gaim.

The problem is that without being able to crit with the Gaim's primary weapon, a ship won't go adrift all that often in my experience, even in the old list.

You still have more breaching pods that most races as well... more than enough to overwhelm a single ships AF given you also have fighters attacking.

Then you have different experience using them than I do as in almost every game I've played, I've lost all but 1 or 2 fighters/pods. This has happened in every single game I've played vs a fleet with even mediocre AF values. Just my experience though.

The assault ship on scramble scramble will launch five pods, that almost guaranties that you'll get one through. It only takes a couple of troops to destroy most ships once aboard.

I agree it only takes a couple once they get on board, but they have to survive to get there. With the pods being slower now, I'm not certain I see that happening all that often.

Add in the ships 10 AD of DD Beam, admittedly with short range and scattered arcs... but still, it's moments of glory will be large and dramatic.

And infrequent. Personally, I would have upped the beam AD to 4 for both the starboard and port batteries. With only a 10" range, it's going to have to close anyway and the mental visage of a good broadside into the target ship before sending the troops over is the archetypal naval boarding image.

The ONLY issue with this ship compared to other non-twofer patrol hulls is the requirement to be at range 8 weakens your stealth.

Which would seem to make it pretty useless overall if it cannot engage anything at all without compromising itself.

Your scout does more than lower stealth btw, it twin links your regular fighter attacks. Given how many fighters you will be trying to field it's not to be laughed at.

See my previous post on the effectiveness of Gaim fighter normal attacks. I know I have bad luck with dice, but I rarely find they do anything at all, even with a re-roll.

Ship I would complain about is the skirmish level gunship... that one feels under ranged on it's beam...

I like that they upped the AD for it, but I agree, it still seems too short ranged to be much use really. At least it's a little better than before, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Only time will tell.

Cheers, Gary

 

[katadder]

well we had agreed the pods needed to come down in speed as pretty much all pods in the game are speed 6, plus it gives people a chance to shoot them but the other changes (their losing the 2nd dice and the ship coming down to hull 6) I dont remember seeing anywhere until release

 

[silashand]

well we had agreed the pods needed to come down in speed as pretty much all pods in the game are speed 6, plus it gives people a chance to shoot them but the other changes (their losing the 2nd dice and the ship coming down to hull 6) I dont remember seeing anywhere until release

Oh, I'm not complaining about the pods at all. Just the ability to actually get them out where they can do some damage. As I noted before, without weapons that can crit, and thus slow the enemy down / make them adrift for the Stand Down and Be Boarded special action, the only way you can board them at all is with the pods.

Cheers, Gary

 

[katadder]

well the assault ship can do crits, and DD e-mines can cripple the enemy.

also consider this -
assault ship moves to 8" away from any battle level ship, then in end phase launches pods 2" forwards so 6" away. most battle level ships are speed 8 so it can either stay still, APTE or do anything it wants but it cannot escape the pods.

I do think the ship had a nerf too far but its also not as bad as some people are making it out to be. ok short range beams but all round, how many other raid ships have that?

 

[H]

Oh, I'm not complaining about the pods at all. Just the ability to actually get them out where they can do some damage. As I noted before, without weapons that can crit, and thus slow the enemy down / make them adrift for the Stand Down and Be Boarded special action, the only way you can board them at all is with the pods.

Cheers, Gary

I believe the crewed misile, a primary weapons for the gaim can crit, Sure you are correct the mines cannot, but when a wad of crewed missiles slam into your Bintak for example, you gotta expect quite a few crits!

 

[Burger]

Oh, I'm not complaining about the pods at all. Just the ability to actually get them out where they can do some damage. As I noted before, without weapons that can crit, and thus slow the enemy down / make them adrift for the Stand Down and Be Boarded special action, the only way you can board them at all is with the pods.

Cheers, Gary

I believe the crewed misile, a primary weapons for the gaim can crit, Sure you are correct the mines cannot, but when a wad of crewed missiles slam into your Bintak for example, you gotta expect quite a few crits!

Yep they're even Precise, so more crits that a lot of fleets can ever hope for!

 

[silashand]

I believe the crewed misile, a primary weapons for the gaim can crit, Sure you are correct the mines cannot, but when a wad of crewed missiles slam into your Bintak for example, you gotta expect quite a few crits!

It is possible I am jaded from playing against ISA and an entirely hull 6 EA fleet on many occasions. I'm sure that skews my experiences somewhat, and why I have absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for those complaining their ISA were so vulnerable to the last fleet - IMO that was simply a farce. IMO an entire fleet with dodge that is also fast is more abusive than a slow one with the emines any day of the week.

I believe the crewed misile, a primary weapons for the gaim can crit, Sure you are correct the mines cannot, but when a wad of crewed missiles slam into your Bintak for example, you gotta expect quite a few crits!

Perhaps, but they are effectively one-use only so if you don't get decent ones you're screwed. Against any ship without AF, sure, they will work well. But even mediocre AF will mean you only get a couple at any given time. I honestly don't find them all that effective as people claim really.

Cheers, Gary

 

[H]

don't get me started on ISA. . . .

as for the misiles, yup one use, but precise and you get enough of them to cause some damage. Little ships will die eventually to e-mines, big ships you just try to crit to buggery

 

[Burger]

Hrm, the new fighter contact rules, do hamper the crewed missiles a bit. The number allowed to contact the stem, would be before AF fire is performed. So sure, 6 can attack an Omega, but on average 3 will survive AF fire. That "primary weapon" can only do 3AD P/SAP/DD per target per turn!

 

[TGT]

you thought of that as well Burger!

 

[katadder]

yeah this was mentioned, EA have good AF though generally, and if they have an escort too well its all bad for the Gaim.
although the flipside is 20 fighters can attack a KBT which also only has AF6

 

[Da Boss]

The Minbari do very well with the revision - suberb AAF and low damage scores help them..............

amusingly ( :twisted: ) the Narn suffer most - higher damage and low AF scores across the fleet.

 

[H]

the Brakiri suffer too, if they don't have a halik, their Af is poor

 

[katadder]

however minbari suffer from the DD e-mines on odd numbered turns from some ships as they didnt lose AD, just got slow loading.

 

[The Adept]

I had a game against the new Gaim last night. 5 point raid, Vree vs Gaim. He took a battle level queen, 2 assault ships (raid) and two gunships (skirmish). I took four Xill battle saucers (raid) and four Ximm close escorts (patrol). I won, but it was close; I had three Xills left, two of which had Gaim troops on board.

My thoughts:
- they are more balenced, as far as I can tell from one game
- fleet carrier is very very good for them. My opponent recovered a large number of flights which got shot down by AF or intercepter duty
- the assult ships are good if they can get multiple targets in their arcs, but are easy for the Vree to out-manouver
- the new photon bombs are a real threat to the fragile Vree ships, but shouldn't be too nasty for more durable fleets
- boarding pods are no where near as unpleasant. They used to be an auto-kill (with enough time) if they got into contact, but they're much more handleable now
- The bigger queens are tough to crack - fortunatly, a 6-6 crit with double damage took out the intercepters, and sealed the queens death
- The lower number of fighters wasn't too much of a pain for him, as the larger ships were able to keep launching fully until they died, so extra flights wouldn't have helped
- escorts are very useful!

Hop these odd ramblings help the discussion. I'm of the firm belief that you should play against a list before making a call on it.