Neutered Shadows?

[Alcibiades]

Hi all. Just getting started with ACTA and have been playing Shadows v. ISA with a mate at various point levels, but not less than 5 battle.

In four of five games the Shadows were easily taken out, on one occassion the ISA didn't loose a ship. We were both surprised at how vulnerable the dreaded Shadows of B5 were on the table.

I think we are all agreed that Shadow fighters are pretty much a waste of time (subject of course to some exceptions). The absence of lower level fleet ships virtually guarantees they will be outnumbered which has particularly serious consequences for the Shadows. My mate and I found it impossible to target the priority ships in the ISA fleet, ie. the Gunships etc. because numbers allowed the ISA to always move the priority ships last and thereby remain well out of the arc of fire. The "extended move" isn't that much use as it will usually take the Shadow closer to the enemy and give that enemy the opportunity to approach from outside the arc of fire. That, coupled with the restricted arc single weapon system and the vulnerability to weapons crits. really removes any reason to fear the Shadows.

I'm hoping to hear from those experienced Shadow player who are willing to impart those words of wisdom that will put the teeth back into my Shadows.

Thanks all.

Kent

 

[dag'karlove]

Kent,

Ive Only used my shadows Twice in Second ED. Ive FOught to a draw in one and win in the other. To me and most of my 8 person gaming group, the shadows along with the vorlons and ancients are generally a special occurence type of fleet. Ive also found that yes they are tougher to play at lower lvls. At Lower levels They require Guile and cunning instead of Brute force. Using Hyperspace mastery, Double movement, and massing your firepower, are the keys to the shadows. SM also is a Big deal. All that being said as stated earlier, the shadows are designed to be played at war and above. Thats why we all beleive they are more of a special event or a large game fleet.

 

[Ripple]

Well he did say he was played nothing less than 5 Battle and not had any success, so you can't say he's not playing the right levels.

SM is a big deal vs most opponents but ISA have almost the same ability to pick targets as an SM ship does so it is much less effective vs them.

The double movement can be used to some degree but again, with the Whitestars ability to snap around enhanced in second ed by the agile trait, it's not really a relevant advantage because you cannot get away from the beams.

Hyperspace mastery is situational, depends on if your allowed to start in hyper. It is important to watch when you can withdraw and win, rather than fighting to the death.

I'm not sure what you mean by Shadows and the other Ancients being special occurrence fleets. How does that effect whether they are playable within the game?

The lower level issue does exist, and given you can't 'skip' a pl anymore a real problem for the shadows.

Not slamming just saying he's asking for specific advise against the ISA, and most of what was said is not terribly useful vs the opponent he is fighting. My experience is limited, what Shadows are you taking? Our group has generally thought the battle level ship is ineffective in fights where it can't outmaneuver its opponents. Given your opponent I'd try scouts and the war level younger hull. Might be hard to get a good split though depending on what level your playing.

Ripple

 

[Alcibiades]

Thanks for the info guys.

Last game was a 16 point Raid level (chosen to suit available ships). The Shadows fielded 2 Shadow Young, 2 Shadow Stalkers, 3 Shadow Scouts and 4 Wings of Fighters. The ISA fielded the Tara'Lin, 2 Gunships and 8 Whitestars. With the presence of the Tara'Lin, initiative was not a certainty for the Shadows.

Anyway, numbers carried the day. Couldn't take the WS's and Gunships out fast enough and before their massed fire took out the Shadow Young. A couple of lucky and very debilitating criticals didn't help either.

While SM is nice, Shadows are not overly fast. Even using the extended move will not outrun a WS's range (movement and weapons). Found it very difficult to get away to recover criticals without taking more fire.

Anyway, all comments are appreciated. In the interim, I shall continue to try and figure out how to effectively use the Shadows.

Kent

 

[angelus2000]

Unfortunately, your experience in using Shadows doesn't match mine playing them. I've never won a single battle against Shadows, and in the Current Vassal game the Shadow Players has won every fight he has played in so far(8 battles I think), with only 1-2 lost shadow scouts.

Thye might not be so hot wen you have a hefty amount of ships on the board, but in low point Battles they have been for all intents and purposes untouchable.

Another thing to add. ISA, and maybe Vree, are pretty much the only race I would take willingly against a Shadow Fleet. I'd suggest running your playtests again, but use EA, Drazi, Centauri next time around.

 

[Frankvas]

Try playing with 3 or 4 ships and have the shadows come out of hyperspace. Can't really do enough damage to a shadow ship each turn for them not to recover, all they have to do is kill 1 ship and then you are really in trouble.

Also, try putting some terrain on the board, an asteroid field or some gas clouds they can dance around. See how good SM really is.

I've played 2 games vs them with Minbari and only managed to kill 1 scout and lots of fighters to my loss of 1 sharlin, 1 morshin, 2 leshaths, 1 tigara, 1 teshlan and 1/2 a tinashi (that managed to escape). Just couldn't do enough damage fast enough. SM also means they can dance around your big ships to avoid the beams or heaviest guns.

Frank V.

 

[Misiolak]

As a shadow player, I always go for Hit'n'Run.
Take Young, or even Ancient if possible. Then try to destroy enough ships that if you leave, you will still win. For 5 battle for example I take Ancient shadow ship with lucky/master plan admiral. Then in most scenarios You only need to destroy a single battle ship or two raid, and withdraw. Easy.
In 5 raid battle you can take Young shadowship and a scout. However this is more tricky as you still need to destroy a single battle ship or two raid. You flee the scout if he seems to be in any kind of real danger, it is the shadow ship that is supposed to do the damage. With good rolls he can even kill a raid level ship in 1 turn. Not so easy, but can be done.

But then, we get to ISA. I haven't played against ISA much. And your post proves that this tactic can't really be used, as the isa is only fleet that can get out of your arc that easily. If he has a gunship or carrier try positioning 10" directly behind him. For whitestars, you need 12" behind them, and some time to force them against the end of the board. You can also try keeping your distance for as long as you can, and maybe force him in to your front to even get to you. As you often win the initiative, try to position yourself to always be able to shot at something, even if it is a simple blue star. His initiative sinks are not infinite, and the front arc is wide enough to target something bigger and still have a bluestar at the edge of fire zone.

 

[Locutus9956]

I must just chime in with one point: the way the PL system works will seriously screw over some fleets if you increase the point number like that (16 point raid is crazy frankly, if your getting into that sort of fleet size you shouldnt be doing it at raid level, you should be looking at 8 point battle or 4 point war. Simply put to increase game size you need to put up the PL not the number of points or you end up HUGELY biasing games in favour of swarm forces).

The second thing I will advise is simple yet often overlooked. USE TERRAIN. I've lost count of the number of people who claim x/y or z is too strong or too weak who play every game on a nice open board. Vree and Shadows in particular can be vastly increased in effectiveness if they have a few bits of terrain to duck behind and cover their approaches etc.

Lastly though, I'm afraid if I had to pick one major flaw with ACTA in general it's that certain fletets can still suffer a bit from a kind 'rock paper scissors' dynamic (though it's nowhere near as bad as it used to be)

For example: Minbari are VERY vulnerable to being emined to bits by Narn and Gaim.

Shadows are very vulnerable to ISA who are nearly as maneuverable and have loads of beams.

Vorlons are VERY vulnerable to Shadows whos SM nature lets them pretty much sit in the vorlons blind spots ad infinitum (if they survive the initial blast of course....)

Centauri are very vulnerable to Gaim since alot of their nastier attack ships are virtually defenceless vs fighters (though to be frank I think this is more a fault of the Gaim list than anything else but thats another topic....)

Im sure theres other 'nightmare matchups' people can bring up but again its not anywhere near as bad as it used to be and in every one of the examples I've given I still think it can go either way depending how well the fleets in question are played!

 

[Da Boss]

Just played a campaign against Vorlons, Minbari and Narn (although never got to fight the latter).

Played both high and lowish level games (6 pts skirmish - 5pts War)

they preformed well in all these games except for the last two aginst the Vorlons where I lost my entire fleet and only managed to kill 8 flights of fighters! (11.5 points of battle including an Ancient!) 4 Scouts killed 2 Destroyers in a earlier game and only lost one due to a massive beam hit.

However the Scouts are usually great ships - one took a hit from a Sharlin without flinching! The only real problem is the total lack of flexability at lower levels and the sheer badness of the fighter espcially against Minbari / Vorlons where they are pretty much worthless...........even worse against ISA............

re ISA - its going to come down to beam and dodge dice I think, if they hit well and dodge well - you are dead...............accurate guns of the Scout make that much less likely and the double damage helps against the AA.

I would go Scout heavy aginst ISA - he still has to see you and Stealth 5 is a good defense - unless he brings a Leshath / Narn ships. The Stalker is risky - if its beam works its good - 3AD is never gaurenteed and its usually a target as its VP are much better.........

The other thing is the difference between campaings and on offs - if your ships survive on 1 damage point thats ok as you get it all back - even the ISA have to recrew ships.............

not sure if any help !?

 

[Clanger]

I do not think the Shadows are neutered. They have good ships. The shields are nothing to laugh at and the raiders are a pain good stealth, SM and shields and self repair.

They loose out at skirmish and patrol (but enough said about the fighters), but at higher levels are awesome. The same with the Vorlons loose out on Raid level, but good ships at Battle +.

Both Ancient races are nothing to be sniffed at. Though they both loose out in some areas in other areas they rock.

 

[Da Boss]

(but enough said about the fighters), rock.

not till they change :wink:

 

[zulu01]

I have a shadow fleet. Overall, very tricky to play, but cool.

First, the terrain issue is a must. Most CTA scenarios don't allow hyperspace entry, which neuters one of your race's best assets. You need a couple of asteroid fields, gas clouds, etc. to hop out and back out of line of site of the enemy. Be cautious, don't take every shot if your shields aren't fully recharged. With most fleets, time it on your side as when the enemy is close to you, you can "run the gauntlet" and get behind them

Don't waste any points on fighters. They suck, and buying extra at patrol level is a total waste.

The scout is OK, though its guns are weak for its level. Stealth 5 against non e-mine races (or minbari) isn't bad.

The battle level ship is sad - way too weak. Most race's lower PL ships are more than half as good as the next higher priority. Not so this ship. One Young Shadow ships is worth more than two of these.

The young and ancient ships are the power of the fleet. Hypersapce in behind the enemy if you can. Most big battleships are now lumbering and if you can get behind one, you are golden. Shadow Shjips are vulnarable to pinning at young level, so watch out for beam heavy fleets.

ISA are tough - they neutralize many of your strengths. Of course, in the show this fleet was designed to beat you, so it makes sense this should be the hardest fight in the game.

 

[Tolwyn]

Last weekend I had a game EA Crusade vs. Shadows at 7 points Raid after the new Tournament Pack. The game was close as my Omega pinned the young Shadow Ship my opponent used but was killed by fire from the Scouts after taking 2 hits from the shadow ship.

The new Shadows are hard to kill because of their shields how make them very resilient to damage.

 

[locarno24]

I definitely concur with fielding scouts in force. The Shadow Scout is nasty so-and-so - accurate, high powered weapons make it capable of blowing away white stars rather efficiently!

 

[Shadow Queen]

I have a shadow fleet, had 4 White Stars Vs. 1 Young Shadow Ship, my white stars got there buts handed to them

 

[Da Boss]

I have a shadow fleet, had 4 White Stars Vs. 1 Young Shadow Ship, my white stars got there buts handed to them

With the WS's speed, dexterity, dodge and beams I would have thought it would have been the other way - 4 Scouts against 4 WS would be interesting.............

 

[Shadow Queen]

Cant carry a very big case at the moment no car to do a rematch

 

[Jetbaker]

I would never take the battle level shadow ship its one big turd of a ship. ALways try and upgrade to the war and preferably the ancient like others have said.

 

[Shadow Queen]

I would never take the battle level shadow ship its one big turd of a ship. ALways try and upgrade to the war and preferably the ancient like others have said.

What the Stalker??

convert one like I did

 

[Hash]

I did a strategy tip for Shadows somewhere after Armageddon...I think it's mostly valid for 2e, will see if I can find it...EDIT: btw nice stalkers

Found it...out of date maybe but I still think it's useful, I've played a few games with the new Shadows now and I think I can write an updated one soon...

Hash's Guide to Shadow Dancing:

Shadows are frail, even with the uplift from SFoS stats to the new Armageddon stats (and if you're playing with tourney stats it's actually a downgrade to Armageddon...yeah I know the ship is harder, but the WAR choice is worse than the old tourney WAR choice), you're still not a "stand there and fight" sort of ship..don't get me wrong, a hard hull will make you last a few turn but your opponent will outnumber you and wear you down with multiple weapons. Bottom line is that the way ancients take damage means that 100+ hits is not going to last very long, you'll be adding up the hits faster than Reaverman's post count

Still there are a number of strategies that can make Shadows devastating...and they do change significantly in Armageddon due to the changes to fighters and stealth mainly but also due to the loss of the Turret arc on the Shadow War level choice (and Armageddon choice for that matter). Here are my top SEVEN (I could not think of ten ) tips (some are more relevant to campaign play rather than one-offs)...

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Shadow rule number 1 - If they can't get you in arc, they can't shoot you.

You may be frail but you sure can dance! You can outmanoeuvre everything apart from fighters so you should take advantage of that by always trying to place yourself out of your enemies worst firing arcs (or better yet out of arc completely). EVEN if this means you don't get a shot yourself...you take damage horribly, especially from DD, and TD weapons and unless you're SURE you'll take out whatever has just CAF'ed you in the first shot - wait until you get the best opportunities to fire...



Shadow rule number 2 - Patience is more important than aggression.

If you've played Shadows before you know how satisfying it is to go out and blow up something nasty the opponent has in the first two turns...and then you get upset when he kills your big ship in turn 5 or 6 from multiple fire from his small support ships. You lack patience! You don't NEED four or five turns to kill something...often you just need a single shot. If you're playing with a turn limit - see how much time you can spend keeping out of range while you're opponent scramble to keep up with you (doesn't work well with Whitestars!)

If your opponent has multiple small ships this is even better - stay well out of range for most of the game (if you can, asteroids are great for this) and about turn 8 or 9 zoom out and try to pick off a couple of stragglers. Chances are you'll take out a ship or two with minimal damage to your monstrosity and claim a great victory for the forces of chaos! Your opponent may look dimly on your sportsmanship however...

Shadow rule number 3 - Fighters have teeth. BIG TEETH.

Shadows were always a little vulnerable to repeated fighter attacks, mainly because they were the only vessels that could regularly outmanoeuvre them as they moved last. Before Armageddon though I pretty much used to ignore fighters, I hardly used my own fighters since you had to buy them as independent wings and the Shadow Ship (and Hunter in tourney stats) had Hull 6. If the Shadow Ship was really irritated by fighters, it's T arc let it get a shot off if you really wanted. The Shadow Scout of course had it's stealth to divert 2/3 of all fighter attacks...

That all changed with Armageddon - fighters are back with teeth. Armageddon introduced several changes that impacted on fighter survivability. Fighters now fire first and one of the new fighters (the White Star fighter) is capable of DD and has multiple attack dice. To top it all off, fighters no ignore Stealth with 1"...you can kiss goodbye to your scouts when playing against ISA! Because the WS fighter is fast - rule 1 and 2 become difficult to apply and it does obscene amount of damage - roughly 5 will kill a Scout in a single turn - before the scout itself has an opportunity to fire!

Against the Hunter and the Ship the fighters are still nasty, mainly because once they get on you, they are almost impossible to shake off...you can use your own fighters now against them but their dogfight score and numbers will probably buy you a turn before they come back to nip at your heels. Your lack of a turret arc on the WAR choice means you can't even take the desperate attempt to shoot at them with the molecular slice (as they will be out of arc) So how do you cope? With difficulty...you're going to take a hit, you've just got to plan it so its the last time you're opponent gets to use those fighters. Now the scout has a nifty AF weapon but as fighters move last, its rare that an enemy will remain in your arc...that's why you have to force the issue.

Step 1. Keep the Scout well out of range of the nasty stealth ignoring fighters...keep you own fighters with 10" range of your main ships.

Step 2. Bubba (your opponent) moves his fighters to attack your other ships...feel the pain.
Step 3. Next turn you move your scout (18" move is good for charging) to target the opponents fighters with your AF gun.

Step 4. When it comes to move fighters - YOU move your fighters first and engage the enemy in dogfights...tie up as many enemy flights as possible, don't worry about massive penalty to dogfights YOU want to lose (or rather don't mind)

Step 5. Bubba most likely wins the dogfight but can't move his fighters...now the ships can fire!
Step 6. Your scouts AF weapons wipes out the scum - all it cost you was a few of your own fighters.

Other methods exist of course, including making sure you cover each ship with a scout (including the scout providing cover if you can!)...if the scout survives the initial fighter assault, it should be able to clear up the mess.

The last anti-fighter tactic is desperate but it involves getting up close to an any vessel about to explode and unloading on them...the resultant explosion MIGHT take out a few...if it doesn't damage your own ship too badly.

Shadow rule number 4 - When the going get's tough, RUN!

Pretty obvious really but shadows regenerate - most other ships do not. With that mind, if the battle starts not to go your way - MOVE out, try and hide behind something and maybe your regenerate will bring you back into the battle later on. If playing a campaign game then consider leaving the field...

Shadow rule number 5 - Winning the battle is not as important as winning the war.

This rule is applicable to campaigns but consider what you want to achieve from each battle. Most of your choices cost you double RR to replace that a standard race PL ship, e.g. a Raid ship costs EA 15RR, it costs you 30RR!

Let us say you need to defend a Strategic Point in the campaign and you can field a Hunter and a couple of scouts...now you're opponent has a lot of fighters and other Capital ships, while you *may* be able to defend the point, you're unlikely to do so without incurring losses. It costs you a massive 30RR to replace a scout...and 15RR if you lose a strategic point, you do the maths! However, you're opponent gains 10RR for taking a new SP, if you manage to take out a Skirmish ship he's broken even...if you manage to take out more and leave without losing a ships...well he's made a loss!

In this situation, say you don't lose any ships but lose the battle (and strategic point) - then you lose 15RR.

If your opponent loses a Skirmish Ship (RR) and a Wing of Fighters (5RR) - he hasn't gained any RR...so if you add another Raid Ship on to the heap , he's also lost 15RR...it's at that point you've broken even (you and he have lost the same value of RR from your fleets). So if you can kill (or cripple/damage) any more after that...well that's a bonus and means he's lost more RR than you, even though he won the battle...remember KEEPING your ships alive is MUCH more important than winning one battle in the long term, no matter how large.

Shadow rule number 6 - Know when to fight, and where to fight.

Another campaign one. This is fairly simple too but your key assets are your SM and initiative...the later means that means you can often chose the battle location, the former means that hazards to others are a lifeline to you!

What am I talking about? Terrain my friend, TERRAIN! Terrain gives you cover, something you need with shorter range weaponry, and also something to dance around - watching your opponent try to keep up with you in an asteroid field (or Shadow regeneration zone as I like to call 'em) is most amusing I assure you.

Also - this may also sound very simple, don't fight battle that go against you if you can - if you're 3 FAP down against your opponent on open terrain then don't fight! Turn up to claim the XP ad simply leave (or if annihilation simply don't turn up). You're most important asset are your ships, not the strategic points. What you really want to turn up is an Ambush scenario...a free turn right in front of your opponent can be utterly devastating to the opponents fleet taking only minimal risk for yourself.

Shadow rule number 7 - Two Hunters is usually better than one Shadow Ship.

There isn't a huge difference between the Hunter and the Ship anymore, I used to prefer the Ship because its turreted weapon allowed the Shadow to exploit the SM ability to a greater extent but sadly, Armageddon has taken that away from me...

The Hunter is now by far and away the better choice over the Ship, 12 AD SAP BEAM TD beats 8 attack dice and the ability to target 2 (or maybe 4 if you can split the beam on both Hunters)...still the model is god awful and not a "proper" Shadow anyway so its up to you

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Well that's it so far, basically you need to put the survivability of your ships as the top priority, recognising that you have the time to make the telling blow, your opponent often does not. Armageddon makes your life harder as it strips your scout of its greatest protection and makes fighters, which were good against Shadows before, considerably more lethal.

To paraphrase the greatest heavyweight of all time..."Dance like a Shadow and err sting like one too" [/quote]