Multiple Missile Salvoes Arriving Simultaneously

[phavoc]

To be honest Phavoc, the only problem with anti-missile missiles is that is makes Missiles even better.

Want to attack? Use missiles
Want to snipe from range? use missiles
Want to protect against missiles? Dont worry! Use missiles!

So we have to be very careful with the ratio... But otherwise, I do think we need to bump missile defense a bit.

I'm also very much in favour of allowing long distance firing on missiles.

But that's always been the case for long-range sniping. Which means the opponent with the heavier magazines or is able to close and engage with energy weapons will probably be the winner. OR, you have two combatants who exhaust their missile supplies, and the only way to settle things is to close to energy range.

I'm not sure what else to tell you. Why wouldn't you want to use the weapon in the manner it's intended??

 

[AndrewW]

Reading this thread reminded me of why I created a house rule once that ships over 5000 tons break up when they try to enter jump space. Kept the whole weapons race down to a much saner level. :mrgreen:

Still allows for larger SDB's.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

To be honest Phavoc, the only problem with anti-missile missiles is that is makes Missiles even better.

There is no necessity for anti-missile missiles to be as large or share launchers with anti-ship missiles. We could make it a type of PD Battery that can perform the PD reaction a few rounds in advance.

And we enter an arms race between missiles and anti-missile missiles, with decoys and ECM mixed into the missile salvoes.

There is no absolute reason that anti-missile missiles should be more effective than PD lasers.

 

[arcador]

Hmm, it looks like a valid option which provides variety, considering we have the possibility of such changes at that stage of HG. Perhaps for a future companion book.

PD - immediate effect
EW and AMM - effective with prolonging of time, which can be a counter to long range salvo timing

 

[phavoc]

To be honest Phavoc, the only problem with anti-missile missiles is that is makes Missiles even better.

There is no necessity for anti-missile missiles to be as large or share launchers with anti-ship missiles. We could make it a type of PD Battery that can perform the PD reaction a few rounds in advance.

And we enter an arms race between missiles and anti-missile missiles, with decoys and ECM mixed into the missile salvoes.

There is no absolute reason that anti-missile missiles should be more effective than PD lasers.

Yes, that's true. You could make them smaller, but still use the same launcher rather than a specialized one. That means smaller ships would have the ability to carry them along with missiles. Since we use mechanical as opposed to boxed/VLS systems, the feed mechanisms would most likely have a discarding sabot-type device so they can easily be interchanged in the mechanism. So the smaller missile has no distinct advantage there. It's reasonable, and would keep the paperwork easier to deal with (12 counter-missiles = 1Dton).

If you went to dedicated counter-missile launchers then I think you should be able to take advantage of the size (but no offensive capability out of that hardpoint).

 

[Condottiere]

You could put the limiting factor for missiles to be accuracy, in that the more there are in the air, the harder it is to get them sent to the picked target.

Since you could probably fire off a missile per launcher every five seconds.

 

[phavoc]

Another idea is simple fraticide. The larger the salvo, the larger the percentage of missiles get destroyed by debris or in sympathetic detonations.

Plus you could also have an ecm attack that essentially lures the missile onto another ship where it can be engaged with point defense.

And speaking of missile drones, you could also have ecm drones for added defense and decoy drones that mimic the electronic signature of the target.

But we are quickly getting to the level of SFB and it's Admiral level ruleset. Probably not where we want to be. Traveller capital ship combat is basic, and you would need to do a lot of overhaul to fix many inherent problems.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The idea that PD can keep up with missiles might be true for J-4 ships, but not J-3 or J-2 ships. We simply run out of hardpoints for PD Batteries. So take a J-3 missile ship of the usual 110 kT, we can fit 83 Large missile bays and 685 PD Batteries. We can launch 9960 missiles / attack and have a Salvo Defence of 8220.


9960 MW missiles launched in round 1 at Distant, arrives round 11, halved twice, 2490 arrives.
9960 Long Range missiles launched in round 4 at Distant, arrives round 11, not halved since Long Range.
PD kills 2490 MW missiles and ( 8220 - 2490/80% ) = 5107 Long Range missiles, 4853 Long Range missiles remains.
4853 Long Range missiles hit, doing 4853 * 5 / 10 * 55% = 1334 damage, killing 16,5% of enemy ship.


Without the proposed "Halved for each 5 rounds" rule:
9960 nuclear missiles launched in round 1 at Distant, arrives round 11.
9960 Advanced missiles launched in round 4 at Distant, arrives round 11.
PD kills 8220 nuclear missiles, 1740 nuclear and 9960 Advanced missiles remains.
1740 nuclear and 9960 Advanced missiles hit, doing ( 1740 * 25 + 9960 * 10 ) / 10 * 55% = 7870 damage, killing 97,6% of enemy ship. Basically PD is pointless.


Edit: forgot armour...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The basic defence against missiles becomes jumping.

Note that with good crews we can easily jump within the 100 diameter zone without risk:
Core, p148:
Easy (4+) Astrogation: 2D +5[augmented skill] ≈ 12, minimum effect 3;
Easy (4+) Engineering: 2D +5[augmented skill] +3[astrogation effect] -4[within 100d] = 2D + 6, minimum effect 4, automatic success.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The reasonable tactic becomes: Move into Distant, launch a few salvoes, jump before the enemy can hurt me.

Since defences suddenly became irrelevant we can pack our ships full of missile bays. A 110 kT J-3 ship might launch 16000 missiles. If we ignore armour too, that becomes 20000 missiles.

Let's fight that against the Heavy PD ship from http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=900461#p900461 with Salvo Defence 10250.

So we move most our fleet into Distant range:
Fight 10 PD ships against 5 missile max ships:
7 * 20000 MW missiles launched in round 1 at Distant, arrives round 11, halved twice, 35000 arrives.
7 * 20000 Long Range missiles launched in round 4 at Distant, arrives round 11, not halved since Long Range.
PD kills 35000 MW missiles and ( 10*10250 - 35000/80% ) = 58750 Long Range missiles, 81250 Long Range missiles remains.
81250 Long Range missiles hit, doing 81250 * 5 / 10 * 55% = 22344 damage, killing ~2,77 enemy ships.

7 * 20000 MW missiles launched in round 2 at Distant, arrives round 12, halved twice, 35000 arrives.
7 * 20000 Long Range missiles launched in round 5 at Distant, arrives round 12, not halved since Long Range.
PD kills 35000 MW missiles and ( 8*10250 - 35000/80% ) = 38250 Long Range missiles, 101750 Long Range missiles remains.
101750 Long Range missiles hit, doing 101750 * 5 / 10 * 55% = 27981 damage, killing ~3,46 enemy ships. Totally 6,24 enemy ships killed.

7 * 20000 MW missiles launched in round 3 at Distant, arrives round 13, halved twice, 35000 arrives.
7 * 20000 Long Range missiles launched in round 6 at Distant, arrives round 13, not halved since Long Range.
PD kills 32800 MW missiles and 0 Long Range missiles, 140000 Long Range missiles remains.
140000 Long Range missiles hit, doing 140000 * 5 / 10 = 38500 damage, killing the last 4 enemy ships. Totally 10 enemy ships killed.

After launching that we jump before enemy return fire can reach us.

The other 30% of our fleet can now sail in, obliterate the battered remains of the enemy fleet, and take the objective.

The enemy will of course realise what the missiles will do and jump before the missiles reach them. No ships will be destroyed on either side, but the objective will (temporarily) be taken.

No other weapons than missiles are viable for large ships.

Small drones will ignore such sparse salvoes, as usual.



Without the proposed "Halved for each 5 rounds" rule:
6 * 20000 nuclear missiles launched in round 1 at Distant, arrives round 11.
6 * 20000 Advanced missiles launched in round 4 at Distant, arrives round 11.
PD kills 102500 nuclear missiles, 17500 nuclear and 120000 Advanced missiles remains.
17500 nuclear and 120000 Advanced missiles hit, doing ( 17500 * 25 + 120000 * 10 ) / 10 * 55% = 90000 damage, comfortably killing all enemy ships.



Edit: Forgot armour...

 

[phavoc]

Jumping as a defense?

Unless you are targetting orbital infrastructure that can't run, all the enemy needs to do is turn the other direction and force the missiles to chase them and whittle them down. Or both opponents fire at distant, turn and run and nobody gets hit.

As for orbital stuff, the defense against that is to build your bases in large asteroids and let the surface soak up all the damage while your orbital defenses destroy incoming warheads.

A ship launching 20,000 missiles is a bit much don't you think? The inherent problem is that ships can now be bristling with weapons because bays don't take up that many hardpoint and fuel requirements have been drastically reduced. So we have massive weapons inflation going on.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

For the same cost as 20000 missiles we can launch about 7200 torpedoes.

So we move most our fleet into Distant range:
Fight 10 PD ships against 7 torpedo max ships:
7 * 7200 Plasma torpedoes launched in round 1 at Distant, arrives round 11, not halved since torpedo.
7 * 7200 Advanced torpedoes launched in round 4 at Distant, arrives round 11, not halved since torpedo.
PD kills 50400 Plasma torpedoes and 10*10250/2 - 50400 = 850 Advanced torpedoes, 49550 Advanced torpedoes remains.
49550 Long Range missiles hit, doing 49550 * 35 / 10 * 55% = 95384 damage, killing all 10 enemy ships.


If we can overwhelm PD, torpedoes are a cheaper way to do damage.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Jumping as a defense?

Obviously valid (Core, p162).

Unless you are targetting orbital infrastructure that can't run, all the enemy needs to do is turn the other direction and force the missiles to chase them and whittle them down. Or both opponents fire at distant, turn and run and nobody gets hit.

No, Missiles launched at Distant will attack after 10 rounds, no matter where you are (within reason). That is the price we pay for not having to track and move every salvo every round.

As for orbital stuff, the defense against that is to build your bases in large asteroids and let the surface soak up all the damage while your orbital defenses destroy incoming warheads.

Enough missiles will crack even the most stubborn asteroid. This is a natural job for ortillery.

A ship launching 20,000 missiles is a bit much don't you think? The inherent problem is that ships can now be bristling with weapons because bays don't take up that many hardpoint and fuel requirements have been drastically reduced. So we have massive weapons inflation going on.

Just a matter of size. If we build a 10 million dT Star Destroyer as discussed the other day we could launch a lot more than that...

 

[phavoc]

Jumping as a defense?

Obviously valid (Core, p162).

The fact that it's listed in the core rulebook doesn't translate into a viable, or even smart, option. I was questioning the validity of it as a defense against being attacked. If it became the norm in the 52nd century, you would have opposing fleets arriving in system, refueling, then approaching inhabited worlds and emptying their magazines and then jumping. All targets within the battle area would be destroyed on both sides since there's no apparent defense for it (other than jumping...). You would never see any orbital fortresses without the ability to defend against 50,000 missiles/turn. It gets a bit ridiculous.

Unless you are targetting orbital infrastructure that can't run, all the enemy needs to do is turn the other direction and force the missiles to chase them and whittle them down. Or both opponents fire at distant, turn and run and nobody gets hit.

No, Missiles launched at Distant will attack after 10 rounds, no matter where you are (within reason). That is the price we pay for not having to track and move every salvo every round.

Then that means there is essentially no range limitation for missiles for tactical combat. I don't think the rule is correct in that matter. Otherwise why do missiles have an associated range?

As for orbital stuff, the defense against that is to build your bases in large asteroids and let the surface soak up all the damage while your orbital defenses destroy incoming warheads.

Enough missiles will crack even the most stubborn asteroid. This is a natural job for ortillery.

True. But the attacking fleet might easily exhaust it's magazines before the asteroid was destroyed. If you had a 50,000,000 Dton asteroid as your hull, that's a lot of missiles. And not all those missiles are going to hit.

A ship launching 20,000 missiles is a bit much don't you think? The inherent problem is that ships can now be bristling with weapons because bays don't take up that many hardpoint and fuel requirements have been drastically reduced. So we have massive weapons inflation going on.

Just a matter of size. If we build a 10 million dT Star Destroyer as discussed the other day we could launch a lot more than that...

Very true. However the point of THAT was even with the size of the Star Destroyer, it has EIGHT primary anti-ship laser batteries (or bays in Traveller). The 50m diameter are a close approximation to a large bay. And even a Star Destroyer doesn't launch 20,000 missiles/turn. This is where the new design system is moving more into the Space Opera genre and away from the space pseudo-science.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The fact that it's listed in the core rulebook doesn't translate into a viable, or even smart, option. I was questioning the validity of it as a defense against being attacked. If it became the norm in the 52nd century, you would have opposing fleets arriving in system, refueling, then approaching inhabited worlds and emptying their magazines and then jumping. All targets within the battle area would be destroyed on both sides since there's no apparent defense for it (other than jumping...).

You might have missed the point. You send in half your fleet, launch a double salvo, and if the enemy shoots back, jump. The enemy is forced to jump. The other half of your fleet takes possession of the objective. This is where the current rules lead.

No, Missiles launched at Distant will attack after 10 rounds, no matter where you are (within reason). That is the price we pay for not having to track and move every salvo every round.

Then that means there is essentially no range limitation for missiles for tactical combat. I don't think the rule is correct in that matter. Otherwise why do missiles have an associated range?

The rule is. It's in the Core book, so it's published.

 

[phavoc]

The fact that it's listed in the core rulebook doesn't translate into a viable, or even smart, option. I was questioning the validity of it as a defense against being attacked. If it became the norm in the 52nd century, you would have opposing fleets arriving in system, refueling, then approaching inhabited worlds and emptying their magazines and then jumping. All targets within the battle area would be destroyed on both sides since there's no apparent defense for it (other than jumping...).

You might have missed the point. You send in half your fleet, launch a double salvo, and if the enemy shoots back, jump. The enemy is forced to jump. The other half of your fleet takes possession of the objective. This is where the current rules lead.

So what about the other half of your fleet that didn't jump out? If the enemy has shot at you, they still have missiles incoming, and half of their support is now gone...

No, Missiles launched at Distant will attack after 10 rounds, no matter where you are (within reason). That is the price we pay for not having to track and move every salvo every round.

Then that means there is essentially no range limitation for missiles for tactical combat. I don't think the rule is correct in that matter. Otherwise why do missiles have an associated range?

The rule is. It's in the Core book, so it's published.

So you are saying mistakes have never cropped up in the Core books? On more than one occasion we've seen rules that contradict other rules. So either you can, or you cannot outrun a missile. That's one of the purposes of having range bands isn't it? I would still posit that this use of the rule is not the intent. Or, conversely, the rule is applicable to small ship action, but when you are fighting with fleets it is not. I would say it makes more sense in a TCS situation, but not with a single ship doing the attack. That is how I would interpret the rule. All of us, of course, are free to interpret the rules as we choose and see fit. The goal of any ruleset, however, is to establish clear and defined rules from which you then deviate. In this particular instance I would say we have not yet established a clear and defined rule.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So what about the other half of your fleet that didn't jump out? If the enemy has shot at you, they still have missiles incoming, and half of their support is now gone...

Keep the rest of the ships at Very Distant or Far range. The enemy cannot reach you with missiles at those ranges.

 

[phavoc]

So what about the other half of your fleet that didn't jump out? If the enemy has shot at you, they still have missiles incoming, and half of their support is now gone...

Keep the rest of the ships at Very Distant or Far range. The enemy cannot reach you with missiles at those ranges.

But the same rule can be applied to the defenders you are shooting at - as long as they are mobile. Now it would be possible to split your forces and have a second fleet at extreme range (off the range bands, millions of KM away) that would be able to use this rule. If that's what you are meaning.

As has been pointed out, the fleet rules are pretty abstract, and the combat rules are abstracted upon abstracted movement. I think the old TCS rules with the magical battle lines are more applicable - if you want to fight you have to put skin in the game.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Torpedo Max ship.
Dimensioned to cost GCr 116, like a 110 kT Particle ship.

220 kT, J-3, M-9, Armour 0, GCr 116 with 6 rounds of torpedoes.
Launches 8150 torpedoes / attack.
No defences, no drop tanks, nothing fancy.

TL 15    Hull 132 000                                   115 933,5       
Military 1           Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #      dTon      Cost      Power    HardP    Crew
Hull                                           220000                44000     2200    
Config    Sphere          3         3                      6050            
Hull strength    Light    1         1                        
                                        
JumpD      Budget         3   -0    3     1     16505     18568      85800             472
ManœuvreD  Budget         9   -0    9     1     19800     29700     257400             566
PowerP TL12  High Technology   3          1     13411     20117     287381             383

Fuel, Jump                3         3     1     66000                
Fuel, Power               4         4     1      1341                
Fuel Purification      72 h      72 h     1      1100        55            
                                        
Bridge                    1               1        60      1100            
    Holographic           1               1                 275            
Comp          CORE/100   20       100     1                 130            
Backup Comp   CORE/40     8        40     1                  45            
Software      All                                           184            
                                        
Sensors    Advanced       9         4     1         5         5          6        
Array    Distributed      9         3     1        10        11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing Enhance 9         2     1         2         8          2        
Shallow Pen Suite         9               1        10         5          1        
Countermeasures Military  9         2     1        15        28          2        
                                        
Staterooms             100%      3300  3300     13200      1650            
Common Areas            10%       10%     1      1320       132            
Cargo                                             385                
                                        
Large Bay                                        
Torpedo HighTech        238    3 TL12   238     83300     10710       5950     1190    952

Barbette                                        
Torpedo HighTech       1010    3 TL10  1010      3535      4545       2020     1010   2020
                                        
Torpedoes / attack 8150   6           48900               22616            
Missile Defence       0                                    
                                        
                                        
                                        
Crew                  6000                                
    Command            546                                
    Bridge              55                                
        Pilot                  3                            
        Astrogator             1                            
        Sensor & EW           51                            
    Engineer          1861                                
        Engineer            1420                            
        Maintenance          440                            
    Service            268                                
        Admin                220                            
        Medic                 45,2975
        Steward                2,7
    Gunner            3270    
    Flight        
    Troops

 

[PsiTraveller]

Maybe I missed something, I am coming late to this particular party. Missiles run out of fuel after 10 rounds correct? So any example that has them arriving in round 11 means they fail, correct? Or has that been changed?