Multiple Missile Salvoes Arriving Simultaneously

[AnotherDilbert]

I've interpreted this as launched in round 1 arrives in round 1 + 10 = 11 is OK.

 

[arcador]

Indeed the rules state:

If a missile has not reached its target within 10 rounds, it will run out of fuel and become inert.

But I guess a ship can time his salvos for less than 10 rounds. Can it?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Missile flight time depends on Distance to target when launched. See table Core, p161 or HG, p32.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Tiny Missile Drone
Carries 2 missiles. The drone is the same size as a missile.

TL 15    Hull 0                                         1,900       
Military 1           Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #      dTon    Cost    Power  
Hull                                            0,083            0,017
Config    Standard        1         1                   0,003    
Hull strength    Light    1         1                

ManœuvreD    Standard     9         9     1     0,008   0,015    0,075
PowerP    Standard                                               0,083
Battery                   7                     0,010   0,002    
                                
Comp             m/5      1         5     1             0,030    
Virtual Crew/1     5      1         1     1             1,000    
Sensors    Basic                          1            
                                
Fixed Mount Missile Rack  1       TL7     1             0,850

Carrier of Tiny Drones
Cost includes 25000 drones and 50000 missiles.

TL 15        Hull 29 250                              116 110,5        
Military 1           Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #      dTon    Cost    Power  
Hull                                            65000            13000
Config    Sphere          3         3                    1788    
Hull strength    Light    1         1                
                                
JumpD         Budget      3   -0    3     1      5349    6017    27788
ManœuvreD     Budget      9   -0    9     1      6413    9619    83363
PowerP  TL12  High Tech        3          1      4194    6291    89874
                                
Fuel, Jump                3         3     1     19500        
Fuel, Power               4         4     1       419        
Fuel Purification      72 h      72 h     1       325      16    
                                
Bridge                    1               1        60     325    
    Holographic           1               1                81    
Comp         CORE/100    20       100     1               130    
Backup Comp  CORE/40      8        40     1                45    
Software                                                  184            

Sensors    Advanced       9         4     1         5       5        6        
Array    Distributed      9         3     1        10      11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing Enhanc  9         2     1         2       8        2        
Shallow Pen Suite         9               1        10       5        1        
Countermeasures Military  9         2     1        15      28        2        
                                
Staterooms             100%       570   570      2280     285    
Common Areas            10%       10%     1       228      23    
Cargo                                            1190        
                                                                              
Docking Clamp Type I                  25000     25000   12500    
Craft    0,25 dT      25000                        
Craft Cost                                              47500    
Missiles, Long Range                  25000             12500    
Missiles, Multi-warhead               25000             18750    
                                
           
           
Crew                1038                        
    Command           95                        
    Bridge            34                        
        Pilot                3                    
        Astrogator           1                    
        Sensor & EW         30                    
    Engineer         586                        
        Engineer           456                    
        Maintenance        130                    
    Service           73                        
        Admin               65
        Medic                7,816916667
        Steward              0,03
    Gunner        
    Flight           250    
    Troops

Combat tactic:
Round 1: Release the drones.
Round 2: Launch 25000 Multi-warhead missiles, arrives round 12, halved twice, 6250 missiles arrive.
Round 5: Launch 25000 Long range missiles, arrives round 12.
Round 6: Recover the drones, and Jump in the Action Step.


OK, not as good as the Torpedo Max ship, but worth a try...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Torpedo Max ship.
Dimensioned to cost GCr 116, like a 110 kT Particle ship.

160 kT, J-3, M-9, Armour 0, GCr 116 with 6 rounds of torpedoes.
All jump fuel in permanently attached drop tanks.
Launches 8425 torpedoes / attack.
No defences, nothing fancy.

TL 15        Hull 96 000                              116 115,6        
Military 1           Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #      dTon    Cost    Power    HardP  
Hull                                           160000            32000    1600    
Config    Sphere          3         3                    4400            
Hull strength    Light    1         1                        

JumpD         Budget      3   -0    3     1     17148   19291    89143   
ManœuvreD     Budget      9   -0    9     1     20571   30857   267429   
PowerP  TL12  High Tech        3          1     13568   20351   290735    
                                        
Drop Tank Collar 68571 dT 1         1     1       274     137            
Drop Tanks       68571 dT 1                              1714            
Fuel, Jump                                        
Fuel, Power               4         4     1      1357                
Fuel Purification      72 h      72 h     1        23       1            
                                        
Bridge                    1               1        60     800            
    Holographic           1               1               200            
Comp          CORE/100   20       100     1               130            
Backup Comp   CORE/40     8        40     1                45            
Software                                                  184            

Sensors    Advanced       9         4     1         5       5        6        
Array    Distributed      9         3     1        10      11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing Enhanc  9         2     1         2       8        2        
Shallow Pen Suite         9               1        10       5        1        
Countermeasures Military  9         2     1        15      28        2        
                                                                        
Staterooms             100%      2270  2270      9080    1135            
Common Areas            10%       10%     1       908      91            
Cargo                                             596                

Large Bay                                        
Torpedo High Technology 273    3 TL12   273     95550   12285     6825    1365  
Barbette                                        
Torpedo High Technology 235    3 TL10   235       823    1058      470     235 
                                        
Torpedoes / attack 8425   6           50550             23379            
Missile Defence       0                                    
                                        
                                        
                                        
Crew               4130                                
    Command         376                                
    Bridge           56                                
        Pilot               3                            
        Astrogator          1                            
        Sensor & EW        52                            
    Engineer       1786                                
        Engineer         1465                            
        Maintenance       320                            
    Service         193                                
        Admin             160                            
        Medic              31,16416667
        Steward             1,7
    Gunner         1719    
    Flight        
    Troops

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Torpedo Max ship.
Only carry 4 rounds of torpedoes.

171 kT, J-3, M-9, Armour 0, GCr 116 with 4 rounds of torpedoes.
All jump fuel in permanently attached drop tanks.
Launches 8965 torpedoes / attack.
No defences, nothing fancy.

TL 15        Hull 102 900                              115 953,2        
Military 1           Desired  ∆TL  Rat    #      dTon    Cost    Power    HardP  
Hull                                           171500            34300    1715    
Config    Sphere          3         3                    4716            
Hull strength    Light    1         1                        

JumpD         Budget      3   -0    3     1     18380   20678    95550   
ManœuvreD     Budget      9   -0    9     1     22050   33075   286650   
PowerP  TL12  High Tech        3          1     14541   21811   311591    
                                        
Drop Tank Collar 73500 dT 1         1     1       294     147            
Drop Tanks       73500 dT 1                              1838            
Fuel, Jump                                        
Fuel, Power               4         4     1      1454                
Fuel Purification      72 h      72 h     1      1225      61            
                                        
Bridge                    1               1        60     858            
    Holographic           1               1               214            
Comp          CORE/100   20       100     1               130            
Backup Comp   CORE/40     8        40     1                45            
Software                                                  184            

Sensors    Advanced       9         4     1         5       5        6        
Array    Distributed      9         3     1        10      11            
Extension Net    None                                    
Signal Processing Enhanc  9         2     1         2       8        2        
Shallow Pen Suite         9               1        10       5        1        
Countermeasures Military  9         2     1        15      28        2        
                                                                        
Staterooms             100%      2430  2430      9720    1215            
Common Areas            10%       10%     1       972      97            
Cargo                                             334                

Large Bay                                        
Torpedo High Technology 290    3 TL12   290    101500   13050     7250    1450  
Barbette                                        
Torpedo High Technology 265    3 TL10   265       928    1193      530     265 
                                        
Torpedoes / attack 8965   4           35860             16585            
Missile Defence       0                                    
                                        
                                        
                                        
Crew               4440                                
    Command         404                                
    Bridge           57                                
        Pilot               3                            
        Astrogator          1                            
        Sensor & EW        53                            
    Engineer       1914                                
        Engineer         1571                            
        Maintenance       343                            
    Service         206                                
        Admin             172                            
        Medic              33,4
        Steward             0,8
    Gunner         1859    
    Flight        
    Troops

 

[phavoc]

Torpedo Max ship.
Dimensioned to cost GCr 116, like a 110 kT Particle ship.

160 kT, J-3, M-9, Armour 0, GCr 116 with 6 rounds of torpedoes.
All jump fuel in permanently attached drop tanks.
Launches 8425 torpedoes / attack.
No defences, nothing fancy.

What's the point of a permanently attached drop tank? It gives you no bonus because the ship would perpetually include the tonnage of the drop tank for all jump and maneuver fuel calculations.

And I don't see any interstellar navy ever building a ship that only could launch torpedoes and then jump out. The cost of maintaining it when it could perform no other duty would be prohibitive. Even the Tigress class dreadnoughts have a more efficient function during times of peace.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What's the point of a permanently attached drop tank? It gives you no bonus because the ship would perpetually include the tonnage of the drop tank for all jump and maneuver fuel calculations.

Yes, but drop tanks are (slightly) cheaper than hull. Cheaper ship, means bigger ship with more bays for the same cost.

And I don't see any interstellar navy ever building a ship that only could launch torpedoes and then jump out. The cost of maintaining it when it could perform no other duty would be prohibitive. Even the Tigress class dreadnoughts have a more efficient function during times of peace.

I'm sure that all navies will hate a ship that can win any battle, even at bad odds, without taking any losses.


Of course this concept is ridiculous, I'm pointing it out so that this unfortunate consequence of the rules can be fixed. That is the point of a beta-program?

 

[Condottiere]

If the torpedo ships jump out after launching their ordnance, accuracy may suffer due to lack of fire control.

 

[phavoc]

If the torpedo ships jump out after launching their ordnance, accuracy may suffer due to lack of fire control.

No, Traveller missiles are fire and forget types.

 

[phavoc]

What's the point of a permanently attached drop tank? It gives you no bonus because the ship would perpetually include the tonnage of the drop tank for all jump and maneuver fuel calculations.

Yes, but drop tanks are (slightly) cheaper than hull. Cheaper ship, means bigger ship with more bays for the same cost.

Fair point.

And I don't see any interstellar navy ever building a ship that only could launch torpedoes and then jump out. The cost of maintaining it when it could perform no other duty would be prohibitive. Even the Tigress class dreadnoughts have a more efficient function during times of peace.

I'm sure that all navies will hate a ship that can win any battle, even at bad odds, without taking any losses.


Of course this concept is ridiculous, I'm pointing it out so that this unfortunate consequence of the rules can be fixed. That is the point of a beta-program?

Well, this is an impossible task for any rule set, or even reality. It is possible today to do all of these same things, but it doesn't happen because navies have to deal with reality. The Soviet naval doctrine of the 80s was essentially the same. Build tiny frigate and destroyer-sized vessels and pack them to the gills with massive anti-ship missiles. Then where you had some open space you put more weapons. They were literally bristling with weapons. But once they shot their main weapons off, they were useless. And many, aside from their one trick pony status as carrier battle group killers, had very little usage.

The USN built ships with a different viewpoint. Take the Spruance class DD. From it's external view you'd think it was WAY under-armed. But for it's primary job, hunting subs, it was a killer. And it had versatility as well, And it had the inherent capability to take on additional weapon systems because it had tonnage set aside for that.

There is simply no way to stop min/max players from doing exactly that. TCS suffered from it, and even as they added additional rules over time to try and stop it, rules lawyers were constantly looking for exploits. Locking down every little possible cheat or mis-use makes the rules bloated and certainly not fun to play with. For example, the drop tank issue... easiest way to fix that is to remove drop tanks reusability status. And, because if you have 20-40% of your overall tonnage dangling from a connector, don't you think some of your weapons and other systems would be useless? Yet there's no penalty for that, the drop tanks magically have no effect on anything but fuel usage related calculations. They literally are too good to be true.

 

[PsiTraveller]

That's why I like my ship designs, J4 Jump in with J1 onboard to jump away, microjump etc. This gives me 30% more space for weapons. I keep the J4 capability for fast movement, but block no turrets during combat.

The re-usability of drop Tanks is a nice feature for higher tech. If they are destroyed I would want to make a cheap version that is consumed making the Jump bubble and is really cheap. Add that cost in as the cost of Jumping.

For permanently added on Drop tanks, make it M-1 speed only to not stress the connectors. Block turrets along tonnage % of tank and make it a pain to use.

 

[Dracous]

Been thinking about the response to my comment for a little while, which it is why it has taken so long to respond.

I see double salvoes as a tactic being employed by an opposing naval commander to overwhelm defences. Why not just have it as an opposed tactics roll. Attacker wins, and the double salvo attack is made, defender wins, and the point defence can be applied to each salvo separately.

I like it.

So now you're tracking to see which Salvos are from which ships and are hitting at the same turn?

Yes, according to the rules we are, since a salvo is defined as;

...all the missiles launched by a ship against a single target in the same combat round.

Now since Point defense;

...may only be performed against missile salvos.

and

A gunner may only attempt Point Defence once every round

and

The gunner must succeed at a Gunner (turret) check against any missile salvo that is about to make its attack roll against his spacecraft. The Effect of the check will remove that many missiles from the salvo.

It seems that a Point defence attempt may only be made against 1 salvo. Luckily, dedicated point defence batteries (not turrets) allow for their effect to be

....applied to any salvo or spread between several salvoes

Which makes point point defense batteries so much better than re-purposing offensive turrets. This is the factor that makes me appreciate PD batteries.

Additionally we need to keep in mind that different ships may or may not be using Launch Solution software, (depending on all kinds of factors).
So, to answer the question you posed above it is very important to track each salvo from each ship individually. (or a group of ships that are formed into a squadron, since they are treated like one ship anyway).
Finally, if one salvo is missiles, and the other torpedoes, it becomes important to consider which salvo to which you are applying point defence, since it is halved against torpedoes.

So if a ship is being hit by 7 salvos during this turn, however 3 are from the same ship/squadron? So regardless of the turn they were launched in, those need to have opposed tactics rolls or else they deal with "fresh" PD? Even though PD is basically x-shot over Y-time, it magically overdrives during that turn?

I know we fudge things here and there, but this is a double scoop of chocolate.

Hmm.. I think you are being a little harsh here. No, it's not a "double scoop of chocolate". I would say that any missiles actually impacting a ship when laser based PD is active is the magical fantasy, but we allow it to make the game fun. Allowing point defence to go twice, or three times, is not magical, and if makes referees uncomfortable, rules can be added to make each shot a difficulty level harder, require extra power allocation, etc etc. I don't think it is neccesary to write this rule into high guard, so if you as a referee don't like it, don't use it. I think I will, because it will give the commander of a ship (or squadron/fleet) more ability to effect the outcome of the battle, and make it a little more fun for them and provides another use for the Tactics skill beyond initiative modifiers.

Also, for capital ship battles, the salvo defence being applied to each salvo. Since the definition of salvo has not changed, then according to the rules, we are in the situation of eating large bowls of pudding with double scoops of chocolate.

Damn, I'm hungry again.