More Power! *rr rr rr*

[Clovenhoof]

Been meaning to post this for weeks, but always forgot. So: I 'm thinking about tweaking certain attacks so they become more interesting for the players.

#1) Unarmed Attacks: Normally, you need two feats to fight decently without weapon: Improved Unarmed Strike (to avoid the AoO) and Brawl (for damage). I'm thinking about merging these two into one, so that you can, at the cost of one feat, attack unarmed for d6 damage any time.

#2) Thrown Weapons: by RAW, these are really not interesting, because they have short range and do piddly damage. The short range is alright, but how about giving them a damage bonus when thrown? Getting a hatchet thrown in the chest is absolutely no fun. Or a spear.
So I'm thinking about assigning different damage codes to thrown weapons -- something like twice the melee damage, or more. This would only apply to thrown weapons that actually have a range stat.

So for example, a Hatchet might do 2d6 (x3), a Hunting Spear 2d8 (x3). Or maybe even more?
What do you think.

 

[Krushnak]

for thrown weapons you could just allow powerattack to be used. makes sense to be able to give up some accuracy to hurl that axe with all your might.

 

[Oly]

#2) Thrown Weapons: by RAW, these are really not interesting, because they have short range and do piddly damage. The short range is alright, but how about giving them a damage bonus when thrown? Getting a hatchet thrown in the chest is absolutely no fun. Or a spear.
So I'm thinking about assigning different damage codes to thrown weapons -- something like twice the melee damage, or more. This would only apply to thrown weapons that actually have a range stat.

So for example, a Hatchet might do 2d6 (x3), a Hunting Spear 2d8 (x3). Or maybe even more?
What do you think.

I wouldn't make the weapons more powerful than they are when wielded by hand.

Why would a hatchet suddenly become more powerful 10 feet after leaving it's owners hands than it is with those same hands driving it deeper into someone's chest?

You might also end up in a situation where PCs realise that they do more damage throwing a weapon than striking with it and keep backing away from opponents and throwing things at them. Sure you need a good supply of weapons but you do double the damage. That just doesn't feel like Conan to me.

If anything there's a good argument to be made for reducing the damage that a ranged attack does. However in the interest of flavour I'm not in favour of that.

Would I would allow would be "throwing" versions of some weapons such as hatchets or knives. They would keep the same damage but have double the range increment of the non-throwing version.

 

[sgstyrsky]

#2) Thrown Weapons: by RAW, these are really not interesting, because they have short range and do piddly damage. The short range is alright, but how about giving them a damage bonus when thrown? Getting a hatchet thrown in the chest is absolutely no fun. Or a spear.
So I'm thinking about assigning different damage codes to thrown weapons -- something like twice the melee damage, or more. This would only apply to thrown weapons that actually have a range stat.

So for example, a Hatchet might do 2d6 (x3), a Hunting Spear 2d8 (x3). Or maybe even more?

The Franks, who were known for their axe fighting, employed a signature technique when throwing their axes. They would throw them low so the axe would tumble along the ground and then bounce into the air when it hit a rock or bump. This made it very hard for a defender to predict exactly from what angle the hatchet was coming. Apparently, it was an extremely effective fighting technique.

The feat version might add a bonus to hit or perhaps negate a shield's DR (because the defender can't get his shield in front of the thing.)

 

[Saeros]

I would think that the Franks throwing their axes along the ground would only be effective if thrown at a mass of enemies. It is too easy for the axe to bounce off in a direction that is away from the primary target. However, if there were a mass of enemies, it doesn't really matter which way the axe goes when it bounces.

Saeros

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Normally I allow players to apply their Strength modifier to the damage of thrown weapons to make them more effective. It make smroe sense and echoes the old sword and sorcery movies with people embedding thrown axes or daggers into people's chests and backs from a good distance away.

It's Conan people, not reality. 8)

 

[Hervé]

Same as Raven for me. For those who doubt, take a look at the Across the Thunder River cover...

 

[sgstyrsky]

Normally I allow players to apply their Strength modifier to the damage of thrown weapons to make them more effective. It make smroe sense and echoes the old sword and sorcery movies with people embedding thrown axes or daggers into people's chests and backs from a good distance away.

It's how I've always played it. It makes so much sense I thought it was a standard rule.

It's Conan people, not reality. 8)

Wait. Conan is NOT real?

 

[Raven Blackwell]

While you are at it, add the Strength bonus to AP to, so axes really can slice through steel breastplates when wielded by the massive thews of barbarians like in the movies.

Wait, what exactly is 'thew' anyway? ;>

 

[Sutek]

You already get to add STR bonus to damage and AP of thrown weapons. At least I can't recall where it says you can't. Rember that just ecause you utilize your DEX stat to hit with, it doesn' tmean that STR vanishes in a puff of logic.

The problem with damage and short ranged projectiles it that they deal a different sort of damage. Mostly they are strictly puncturing waepons; even throwing axes, really.

Perhaps allowing one bonus damage die per bonus point of STR. In other words, if you have +2 STR throwing a 1d6 weapon, then you get 3d6 damage. The catch, not only does it diminish over distance (-1 die for each 10') but it also reduces your change to hit at closer range unless you don't throw as hard as possible, giving up damage for accuracy.

In other words, the same guy could potentially throw for a full +2 dice, but wants to actually sand a chance of hitting so uses none of it, dealing base die damage of 1d6, but also not gaining a penalty. The next round, he could take one enemy out if he throws full force, but he sacrifices -2 to hit by doing so although it grants +2 dice of damage too.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Overall I think that's just overly complicated. If a guy has a STR bonus of +4 than a thrown Axe in his hand will do 1d8+4 points of damage and have an AP of 5 (natural 1 + STR bonus) at the first range increment of 10'. The AP drops one point each range increment as per usual with any ranged weapon.

If you wanna tackle this in another way, try this. Break the Axe into two weapons. A Combat Axe and a Throwing Axe. A Combat Axe cannot be thrown, does d8 damage and has a base AP of 2. A Throwing Axe has a range increment of 20', base damage of d8 and a base AP of 1. This separates a heavier Axe meant for fighting in either hand to a lighter, balanced Axe meant for throwing at your enemies- if one feels the need to have them be separate types of attacks in the first place........

 

[sgstyrsky]

I think the rules cover quite well the diminishing power of ranged weapons over distance.

AP drops the farther a weapon or projectile travels. At extreme ranges daggers, axes and even arrows bounce off armor.

Thrown weapons just aren't as damaging as projectile weapons or wielded weapons. They're not as big, not as heavy, don't have 200 pounds of barbarian muscle behind them, and are not pushed from a mechanical device such as a bow or crossbow.

As in real life, (and we KNOW Conan is reality, contrary to some other opinions) if you want to increase the damage of a thrown weapon, you're going to have to get really good at tossing it. In game terms this means using Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, and Sneak Attack (and I guess multiclassing as well.)

 

[Clovenhoof]

Thrown Power Attack sounds pretty good, thanks for the input.
The extra damage die might not be necessary in that case.
And yes, Str bonus to thrown damage and AP is standard rule, or at least I've always handled it that way.

One of my players has a Pirate who sorta specializes in throwing daggers. That's quite nice, but the damage output is somewhat lacking (she has Str 15 or something).

Concerning the Franks, I know about the Francisca throwing axe, but never heard of that bouncing throw. As far as I know (and of course we can never know for _sure_ without a time machine), its primary purpose may well have been to hit and cleave the enemy's shield in order to make it unusable.

Secondly, it reminds me of the typical combat tactics from the early Roman age onward, employed mainly by Romans and Germans: throw a couple of javelins (Framae, Pila, whatever) at the enemy ranks to thin them out or at least disable their shields before engaging in close combat.

Besides, imho throwing one weapon or two at the beginning of combat is much more stylo than bows and arrows.

 

[arderkrag]

#2) Thrown Weapons: by RAW, these are really not interesting, because they have short range and do piddly damage. The short range is alright, but how about giving them a damage bonus when thrown? Getting a hatchet thrown in the chest is absolutely no fun. Or a spear.
So I'm thinking about assigning different damage codes to thrown weapons -- something like twice the melee damage, or more. This would only apply to thrown weapons that actually have a range stat.

You do know that you're supposed to add one-half str mod to thrown weapons, right?

 

[Clovenhoof]

You do know that you're supposed to add one-half str mod to thrown weapons, right?

No. AFAIK that's not correct. In 1E, at least, it says "When you hit with a melee or a thrown weapon, including a sling, you add your Strength modifier to the damage result".
Maybe you add one-half Str mod if you throw the weapon as an off-hand attack, but only in this case, not as the norm.

By the way - and here's a new point for the "More Power" list:
I'm not entirely convinced that the off-hand attack _should_ be a 0,5x Str mod, melee or otherwise. After all, a character proficient in Two-Weapon Combat is ambidexterous. The rules specifically that you can designate your main hand any way you like, so in round 1 you could get your full Str mod on the right hand, and in round 2 on the left hand. So it is proven that both your arms have the same strength. So why can't you add your full Str bonus on both hands every round?

 

[Saeros]

I think the strength bonus comes from more than just arm strength. In order to get the most out of a swing, the attacker would have to put his whole body behind it starting with the planting of a foot and twisting and driving up through the legs, hips and back. The arms are just the final step in delivering the blow.

Following that logic, and adding in the 6-second round, it seems reasonable that a character would only be able to get their full strength behind one side of their body.

When a character has multiple attacks, they are recoiling the same spring, not changing the direction of the spring, making it easier to strike with full strength.

Saeros