More on the nature of Magic

[Durand Durand]

One of the things I didn't like about MRQ is the new Runemagic system. In the old RQ systems everyone had a spell or two to use. In the new system few people have access to runemagic. Divine Magic is more common now it would seem. The people are reliant on the temples.

I like the idea of people having domestic magic, ritual spells to start fires, to raise bread and such. The blessing of a Hearth was a great thing to roleplay. It was something that became more available in HQ and provided interesting aspects of life to roleplay. We incorporated these kinds of ideas into our RQ games and it made the game a lot more fun to play. Guestright rituals were important too. If guests took your salt, bread and water, you were all bound by ancient magics to terrible to betray without serious consequences or powerful protections. Sure, Uz guestrights were different, but hte intent is there. More than simple customs. The gods backed-up these rights. The ritual and magic of Glorantha has been a defining element for me.

With the introduction of rune integration for using spirit magics, MRQ seems to take the magic out of the world. Few people have access to everyday magic of Runes. Temple-goers would have to be rich to use magic on a daily basis, and have a lot of time to pray. Magic becomes reserved for Holy Days and emergencies (which I kind do like), but disappears from the everyday (which I don't).

One thing I'd suggested to my group was to make Runemagic spells taught through cults N/PC's worshiped available to cast through the Lore [Cult] skill like Divine spells. We thought it made a bit of sense since the gods all have strong [and I do mean strong] connections with certain runes, and worshipers have strong connections to their gods.

I think I'd make the integration of runes a much more unusual occurance, leaving it for Runelords and Priests, Shamans and Heroes. Runic bonds should to be iconic and defining elements of a character.

Then again, perhaps with the ease of enchantments, everyday magic might be aquired through enchanted items. A self lighting hearth, a bladesharp stone to keep a knife sharp, a door bell that chimes when friends enter, and clangs when a foe does.

I'm hoping future books on Gloranthan magic and culture would lean in this direction. As I don't yet have a copy of the companion or later books, and really hate reading the text SRD's, I'm hoping things will work out something like I envisage when the World books are published later in the year.

What comments would people like to make?
[bare in mind that I am really tired while writing this, and may have just written a bit of gobbledegook]

DD

 

[Deleriad]

...snip
What comments would people like to make?
[bare in mind that I am really tired while writing this, and may have just written a bit of gobbledegook]

DD

It's not gobbledegook but I would say it is a matter of flavour for the world. For example, I always used to use battle/spirit magic in Fantasy Europe as something akin to folk magic - to an outsider Bladesharp 2 might just look like a superstitious charm with no crackling edge, glowing blades etc. The blade might not feel any sharper but perhaps its wielder got a lucky hit in every now and then and perhaps, if you didn't meticulously look after the runes then you might get less lucky.

Now in second age Glorantha, with the Godlearners at their height, perhaps Rune Magic makes sense. In third age Glorantha, perhaps the gods have recloaked the runes in mystery so Rune Magic as written in the MRQ book might not make sense. Perhaps one of the effects of the Godlearners' attempts to turn magic into a science is that peasants' lucky charms no longer work like they did in the old days and you have to use runes to achieve similar things and now they look all splashy and Saturday morning cartoony. I think the key in terms of Glorantha is to realise the the second age is almost a different world to the first age and the effects that the Godlearners are having are wide-ranging and pernicious.

Alternately, you could assume that there is a layer of folk magic throughout Glorantha which emerges from the peoples' relationship with their kith, kin and gods. It might not have game-effects or use MPs but to the people of Glorantha it is no less real.

And if you think of 3rd age Glorantha, perhaps the magic that we knew as Battle or Spirit Magic is the shattered remnants of rune magic and perhaps there is a reason that people no longer integrate runes; just that the reason is part of a secret...

 

[Utgardloki]

It seems to me that the economics of rune magic supply depends on the availability of runes, availability of training in the runecasting skill, and cost of any needed spell components.

If you want magic to be more common, as I do, it's easy enough to make runes more common and less expensive. Apparently the availability of runes is going to be key for controlling access to magic.

I think the cost to learn a spell could be waived if someone has a reason to teach you a spell. In that respect, MRQ is superior to 1st edition Runequest where the only control was to force PCs to pay for spells, no matter what. Now PCs could get training for free, theoretically, but still would need to find runes that they could attune to.

I suppose an elaboration on this idea would be to limit the magnitude of spell that a particular rune can cast. I've used this idea for my Runequest Modern setting, whereby each rune is limitted by the amount of gold used in its makeup.

I like the idea of runemagic being everywhere, so I can make runes relatively inexpensive and common. Of this means that a PC could be carrying a cartload of runes, but why? The good runes are rare and hard to come by.

I also like the idea of the Godlearners deciding that rune magic was too common, and working to restrict it. I need to figure out how to map the ages of Glorantha to the history of the world and to the ages of Earth. Unfortunately, my comic shop owner doesn't stock the runequest books.

 

[soltakss]

I've always played that Spirit Magic/RQM Rune Magic costs full price from just anyone, three-quarters price from friends and half-price from cults. That makes it cheaper.

Also, people learn spells as rewards for completing jobs, doing favours etc. You can be paid X for a mission or get 1.5X in Spells. Presumably the same could be done for Runes.

In any case, if you slightly up the rate that runes can be found (you are allowed to, you know) then they can build up quite quickly. Last session, I gave a POWx1% chance to find runes and THEY ALL MADE IT. I reckon if I give a similar chance each session or couple of sessions they'll son build up a supply. (Our Storm Bull now has 10 death runes so maybe I'd better slow them down a bit)

 

[gamesmeister]

You could also alter it slightly for a world like Glorantha, whereby the runes are not the blood of Gods (which in earlier versions of RQ were the source of power crystals rather than runes), but are in fact created and enchanted with the help a priest of a cult through a ritual. The character would probably need to be an initiate of the cult already before a priest would help him with this.

The character would select an item to receive the rune, then both he and the priest perform the necessary ritual to power the rune. At the end of it the character attempts to integrate the rune as normal. If he succeeds, he has his rune, but if he fails the ritual fails and he'll have to wait for an appropriate time before trying again.

Obviously this ritual could only create runes associated with those of the cult.

The availability of runes is something you can tweak to match your own tastes, no need to follow the rulebook to the letter on this one.

G

 

[RMS]

The author of the Cults book has said that magic for any run rune associated with a god is available to worshippers, regardless of whether they have found and integrated a rune. They wouldn't get the automatic powers of rune association, but would have the spells, just like always in Glorantha. I thought that seemed like a reasonable idea for the setting.

 

[gamesmeister]

That sounds perfect, can't wait for the book!

 

[Durand Durand]

I think the key in terms of Glorantha is to realise the the second age is almost a different world to the first age and the effects that the Godlearners are having are wide-ranging and pernicious.

Oh, I definitely realise that the changes define the transition of ages. The godlearners are really just warming up at this stage and have much more havoc to wreak. The second age is one of great empires, great change and powerful and pervasive magics. I kinda don't see that represented in the system, the magic of Gods seems weak, but I guess Sorcerers and Dragons rule this age.

My real problem is I won't really get to read about 2nd age Glorantha for probably another month yet. I don't really know how the second age is envisaged by Mongoose. The Lord Issaries knows when that book will arrive downunder. It's so hard when the rules and campaign material are dribbling out at this pace [sound whiny don't I, sorry]. For the moment, we are content to run a relatively ageless game.

The author of the Cults book has said that magic for any rune associated with a god is available to worshippers, regardless of whether they have found and integrated a rune. They wouldn't get the automatic powers of rune association, but would have the spells, just like always in Glorantha. I thought that seemed like a reasonable idea for the setting.

That sounds perfect, can't wait for the book!

Perfect, I agree. I've only just read the SRD of the Companion and that intent doesn't come through clearly there. There are no runic associations mentioned with any of the cults published so far.

As I see it the problem with the MRQ game in that they are publishing the material in a strangely compartmentalised way due to the OGL. To me the companion seems merely like a lot of stuff that should have been in the main rules anyway. I guess they wanted to keep the cost of the basic rules down, but it also means we have to wait for next edition to get a book where the layout of the rules sections would be friendlier (like magic rules in one book instead of several). I understand Gloranthan material will have to be mostly seperate to avoid license problems [I still can't beleive Ducks where in the OGL].

That I have to wait longer to see the Glorantha and Cults book is obviously frustrating me. I still don't have a clear picture of what Mongoose intends for Glorantha's 2nd age, rules wise that is. The "here's a new book and a few rules" idea is grating. It'll be December before we can really get a 2nd age game up and running here. I do have to say the Glorantha material looks pretty good so far, from what I've seen in previews and by word-of-web, the writers are doing a good job.

Good god it's late, I'm rambling [and ranting, sorry] again.

DD

 

[RMS]

Perfect, I agree. I've only just read the SRD of the Companion and that intent doesn't come through clearly there. There are no runic associations mentioned with any of the cults published so far.

Different authors, and I just saw another post where said author of the Cults book mentioned something about whether that idea would go through, so we'll have to wait and see if it even gets published that way. If not, it's an instant house-rule for me!

I'm getting impatient. OTOH, I just have to flip through my RQ3 materials to realize how short of time we're really waiting now. Of course, in RQ3 the core rules (in the box) and the additions in GoG were all you needed, rules-wise.

 

[TRose]

The main thing I see that going to be holding back people using rune magic is not the runes themselves, as a Gm can make them as common as he wants, but the skill needed to cast the spells. If I read right there 26 different runes and each runes is a different skill.. And although no one going to have knowledge of all 26 runes it was not unusual in old Runequest for players to know 4 different spells that now have different runes for them. Thats 4 different skills needed to raise. And a Shaman going to be even worse if they are still runecasters.Im tempted to make runecasting a single skill in my game but wil wait and see.

 

[Utgardloki]

I might want to take a look at how these spellcasting skills work, especially if I want to use different types of magic: Runecasting skills for Runecasters, Wizardry and Read Magic skills for Wizards, Voodoo for Shamans and Voodoo practicioners, etc.

GURPS has it so that every spell is a separate skill.

Another option might be to have one Runecasting skill, with all these separate runes being specializations. Someday I'll put the rules for specialization on the Runequest Wiki.

I haven't had much of a chance to look at magic and decide what I want to do. I remember from the original book that there was Battlemagic and Rune Magic, also Divine Magic and Spirit Magic. Perhaps I might do an adventure where all the Battlemagic gets tied up in Runes. (Kind of the godlearner's idea of "gun control".)

 

[RMS]

The main thing I see that going to be holding back people using rune magic is not the runes themselves, as a Gm can make them as common as he wants, but the skill needed to cast the spells. If I read right there 26 different runes and each runes is a different skill.. And although no one going to have knowledge of all 26 runes it was not unusual in old Runequest for players to know 4 different spells that now have different runes for them. Thats 4 different skills needed to raise. And a Shaman going to be even worse if they are still runecasters.Im tempted to make runecasting a single skill in my game but wil wait and see.

A typical character may know 3-5 spells, but I'd bet that a lot of times those will be tied to only 2-3 runes, so it's not one skill per spell but one skill per ~2 spells. That doesn't completely alleviate your concern I'm sure, but it will lessen what you're describing.

 

[Utgardloki]

And if nothing else, it won't be like D&D where a wizard can have a dozen different spells, covering every area the player can think of.

On the other hand, in my settings, a wizard can have a dozen different spells, covering every area the player can think of. So I have to be careful that everybody wants to be a "wizard" and nobody wants to be a "runecaster".

That could be an argument for a single Runecasting skill. Wizards need two skills: Wizardry and Read Magic. But with these two skills, a Wizard would have available to her any spell she can read in a book (make a Read Magic skill roll for). If a Runecaster needs to master many skills, it can be hard to justify. But with a single skill, and quicker casting times, Runecasting becomes a viable alternative to Wizardry.

But I intend to start a thread about different kinds of magic and how they can coexist fairly.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

I'd view it as the dominance of the GodLearners and the EWF pushing back the regular "way the world works". Say, the GodLearners have messed about so much with the Spirit Plane that it's no longer possible to access it's powers without some kind of additional focus.

 

[Durand Durand]

I'd view it as the dominance of the GodLearners and the EWF pushing back the regular "way the world works". Say, the GodLearners have messed about so much with the Spirit Plane that it's no longer possible to access it's powers without some kind of additional focus.

That was kinda how I was taking it. The rasserfrasser GL have screwed it all up.

DD