More Combat Questions and the Mastery Rune

[FatPob]

Ok I have read the combat rules, read examples, and everything, I just want to make sure.

1. On surprise you cannot act or react untill your Strike Rank.
Eg, Bob the broo slayer is getting attacked from surprise by 3 broo. Bob roles SR of 15, Broo have 17, 19, 12. 2 broo will have attacks to which BtBS cannot defend against.

2. In the above example, as these are free attacks, can the 2 broo use 1 of their Combat Reactions instead of Combat actions to attack?

3. Once Normal combat is started you roll an attack. If this is a success the defender can choose to defend. If he does, both attacker and defender roll opposed but use the tables for resolution.
Eg, Bob The Broo Slayer survives the 1st 2 broo attacks and swings out at the 3rd (hoping to cut it down before this one attacks). He hits. As this broo is not surprised it can use it's Combat reactions to defend and chooses to dodge. Both Bob and the Broo roll again and look up results on the table.

4. In the above example Bob's 1st roll (attack roll) is unopposed. His 2nd roll is opposed. Now if Bob had integrated the Mastery Rune, he gets a +20% to opposed checks. Would this count in combat for defence resolution, ie, added to Bob's Weapon skill if attacking, and to his dodge/parry roll if defending?

 

[Halfbat]

1. On surprise you cannot act or react untill your Strike Rank. Eg, Bob the broo slayer is getting attacked from surprise by 3 broo. Bob roles SR of 15, Broo have 17, 19, 12. 2 broo will have attacks to which BtBS cannot defend against.

Correct. Bob also gets a -10 penalty on his first CA's SR, so all 3 Broo go before him in the first action cycle (this affects (2) below).

2. In the above example, as these are free attacks, can the 2 broo use 1 of their Combat Reactions instead of Combat actions to attack?

No. They are not Free Attacks. Free Attacks can only be made as Reactions.

3. Once Normal combat is started you roll an attack. If this is a success the defender can choose to defend. If he does, both attacker and defender roll opposed but use the tables for resolution.

This was discussed at length and addressed in the Mongoose Player Guide handout, try this pdf.
There are, in effect, two approaches to combat. One is as you defined - the two-roll system - the other "official" approach is (quoting from the above pdf):
"1. Roll to attack. If you fail, it ends right there. If you succeed, keep your Weapon skill roll on the table.
2. If the attack has been successful, a reaction may be declared - Dodge or Parry, for the purposes of this discussion, it doesn’t matter.
3. Your opponent rolls, effectively making this an opposed test, his Dodge or Parry against the Weapon skill you have already rolled in Step 1.
4. Compare the two rolls like an opposed test - the only difference between a ‘true’ opposed skill test and these combat rolls is that the result is compared to on the tables on pages 50-51."

4. In the above example Bob's 1st roll (attack roll) is unopposed. His 2nd roll is opposed. Now if Bob had integrated the Mastery Rune, he gets a +20% to opposed checks. Would this count in combat for defence resolution, ie, added to Bob's Weapon skill if attacking, and to his dodge/parry roll if defending?

The bonus should be +10%, iirc, not +20% and as for adding it on combat opposed tests I'm not sure, especially as the combat opposed tests are "special case" tests and not the standard opposed test (for example, a critical makes a difference and MS implies a difference above). I'd say no, not for combat, especially as it makes the Mastery Rune incredibly powerful (by comparison the Magic Rune only adds 5% to all Runecasting skills).

Hope this helps!

 

[Deleriad]

1. On surprise you cannot act or react untill your Strike Rank.
Eg, Bob the broo slayer is getting attacked from surprise by 3 broo. Bob roles SR of 15, Broo have 17, 19, 12. 2 broo will have attacks to which BtBS cannot defend against.

That is partially correct. Bob cannot take any reactions until after his SR. His SR however, is at -10 so his SR is reduced to 5. This means that all 3 Broo can get unopposed attacks at Bob.

2. In the above example, as these are free attacks, can the 2 broo use 1 of their Combat Reactions instead of Combat actions to attack?

No. Reactions are reactions and actions are reactions; they are not interchangeable.
However, a mean GM may have the Broos burn all their combat actions with the Flurry attack so that they can get all their attacks in at once before they can be defenced against.

3. Once Normal combat is started you roll an attack. If this is a success the defender can choose to defend. If he does, both attacker and defender roll opposed but use the tables for resolution.
Eg, Bob The Broo Slayer survives the 1st 2 broo attacks and swings out at the 3rd (hoping to cut it down before this one attacks). He hits. As this broo is not surprised it can use it's Combat reactions to defend and chooses to dodge. Both Bob and the Broo roll again and look up results on the table.

Aside from the fact that the 3rd Broo would already have attacked as Bob's SR is -10. Also, welcome to the world of the thread that never ends. The combat example in the book is wrong. When you decide to defend (via a parry or dodge) after the attacker has made a successful attack the attacker does not make a fresh roll, rather you the defender make a roll and oppose it to the attack that has already been rolled. Yes this means that, as written, the parry and dodge tables have results which you can't achieve. There has been all sorts of chatter about this and some people play the "two roll" system by preference.

4. In the above example Bob's 1st roll (attack roll) is unopposed. His 2nd roll is opposed. Now if Bob had integrated the Mastery Rune, he gets a +20% to opposed checks. Would this count in combat for defence resolution, ie, added to Bob's Weapon skill if attacking, and to his dodge/parry roll if defending?

Well it's +10% for mastery rune but you raise an interesting point. Technically Mongoose have tied themselves into a knot. For simplicity's sake I would rule that the attack is not an opposed test - after all you don't know whether the attack will be opposed until after you make it - but that the reaction (dodge/parry) is. That said, although I'm a long time player I haven't had much chance to run MRQ yet and am only working my way through the quirks slowly so don't take my answers as definitive.

 

[FatPob]

However, a mean GM may have the Broos burn all their combat actions with the Flurry attack so that they can get all their attacks in at once before they can be defenced against.

Superb, I am that mean GM, come on player death...

Thanks for clearing that up, sorry to reiterate the same points that no doubt have been uber hammered, but the Opposed and Mastery thing did create the possibilty of munchkin warriors.

I haven't run RQ 3rd Myself yet, (grandmaster of 2nd though) and I liked the look of the 2 roll combat, gives players and monsters a double chance at a crit, which makes cinematic fights interesting...

 

[Halfbat]

Technically Mongoose have tied themselves into a knot. For simplicity's sake I would rule that the attack is not an opposed test - after all you don't know whether the attack will be opposed until after you make it - but that the reaction (dodge/parry) is. That said, although I'm a long time player I haven't had much chance to run MRQ yet and am only working my way through the quirks slowly so don't take my answers as definitive.

As one who has run it and played it, I think that 10% is worth a lot. imho the Mastery Rune benefit was not meant to support the combat tests, not just for balance but also as they're not proper opposed tests. For example, p50 says (for a Dodge) "similar to an opposed skill test" and says the same on p51 for Parry.

Someone from Mongoose Hall could probably state for definite but it seems reasonably obvious*. ::shrugs::

I haven't run RQ 3rd Myself yet, (grandmaster of 2nd though)

Now I'm confused :? This is MRQ we're talking about, yes? Not RQ3? RQ1 = first printing, Chaosium (white background, iirc); 2nd = Chaosium and GW loose update on RQ1; 3rd = AH+others with extensive changes and Sorcery; 4th = never fully realised but bits can be found around; MRQ = Mongoose's Marvellous RuneQuest :wink:

[...] and I liked the look of the 2 roll combat, gives players and monsters a double chance at a crit, which makes cinematic fights interesting...

Erm... Even in a two-roll system there is not a double chance of a critical. If the first roll succeeds and ends up opposed it's the result of the second, opposed roll which counts (Success/Fail/Critical) not the first 'have I hit' roll. That's why the combat tables have "Attack Succeeds" on a fail in the two-roll system: the first roll (the hit roll) succeeded. You only take the results of the first roll if it is unopposed.

If it helps, I find the two-roll approach frustrating, especially when characters got a crit on the first and a fail on their second or if monsters Critical on their first and fail on their second (normal damage or less)... I now just use the single-roll system. There are some more interesting tables up on the wiki to resolve a single opposed test.

* That said, so did a lot of other things :lol:

 

[Quire]

I just want to complain about the distinct lack of an unrelated poll attached to this thread.

I was hoping a trend was being set.

- Q

 

[FatPob]

I just want to complain about the distinct lack of an unrelated poll attached to this thread.

I was hoping a trend was being set.

- Q

:lol: yes, sorry didn't realise, will ensure all future topics include semi random to random poll in future.
regards

 

[FatPob]

Ok I have read this, the book and everything, so if combat is not "opposed" as such, and some table results are not possible, then the following example could happen

Example
Bob the BrooSlayer has 172% Sword, 130% Dodge
Bogtrotter the Broo Lord has 145% Snarled Club, 145% Dodge

Apart from the obvious 5% failure (96-100) it seems neither will really fail any rolls.
Obviously it will be crit vs crit.
If either have the avoidance abilty (legendary Heroes) at least 2 attacks will always miss!

With the opposed 2nd roll, the table makes sense, plus there is the double crit chance, first unopposed roll, then the second opposed test.

Also the dodge table has a couple bizarre statements:
Attack Succeeds but Inflicts Minimum Damage; Defender Forced to Give Ground: The attack still causes damage, however the damage is the minimum possible for the weapon in question. Damage modifiers, such as that derived from statistics, are not minimised. If the attack being dodged was a critical hit, it instead inflicts normal damage. The defender must also Give Ground.
This only happens on a success vs succes cross check
also
Attack Succeeds and becomes Critical Hit: The attack is upgraded to a critical hit.

Now I am sure this is old territory, but as written it does suggest a double roll, which kind of makes sense.

Please school me if I am being thick/stupid or repetitive...

 

[Deleriad]

Ok I have read this, the book and everything, so if combat is not "opposed" as such, and some table results are not possible, then the following example could happen
..

Basically, there seems to have been a last minute change in the rules which has resulted in many of the tables and examples being out of date.

As for the second part, something to note is that even if the dodge succeeds you still take some damage. Of course, once you have 150% dodge then you can wear 6 points of armour (or use lots of Protection magic) and basically be untouchable. Similarly, a successful parry with anything other than a shield is only blocking around 4 damage normally. This means that fighters can get slowly worn down.

The secret to attacking in RQ is to try to gain more actions than your opponent has reactions so that you can get an undefended attack. If you have 150% vs 150% then it's going to come down to precise attacks and managing to disarm your opponent.

 

[Halfbat]

Now I am sure this is old territory, but as written it does suggest a double roll, which kind of makes sense.

Please school me if I am being thick/stupid or repetitive...

That's a dangerous invite

You are quite correct, it is old territory. Matt was quite emphatic that it's a single roll. If you haven't done so already, do look through the Guide pdf. That said, some people are running with double rolls because that's how they read it and that's how they want to use the Dodge/Parry tables "as is". ::shrugs:: Again, it's your game, your call. Other's find the double-roll a pain and run with things as MS stated.

Attack Succeeds but Inflicts Minimum Damage; Defender Forced to Give Ground: The attack still causes damage, [...If attack was ] a critical hit, it instead inflicts normal damage. The defender must also Give Ground.
This only happens on a success vs succes cross check

And on a critical result vs a critical result.

Attack Succeeds and becomes Critical Hit: The attack is upgraded to a critical hit.

That's the damage, etc. And yes, it did seem odd: a crit on the tables vs a success is downgraded. Now you know why there was so much confusion :wink:

btw in your examples, it will not be always crit vs crit (34% crit and 29% crit respectively).

 

[FatPob]

In that case, my question raises another oddity. In Legendary Heroes it has Avoidance basically Uber Dodge. Why does this use the same (and clearly wrong) format
Would have made sense to have changed it in this since it is all cleared up and that!

 

[Deleriad]

In that case, my question raises another oddity. In Legendary Heroes it has Avoidance basically Uber Dodge. Why does this use the same (and clearly wrong) format
Would have made sense to have changed it in this since it is all cleared up and that!

Well Legendary Heroes also uses WIS as one of the characteristics... Seriously, I suspect that you'll find that nearly everything published to date was substantively finished before RQ actually got printed. Officially, Mongoose say that the top line of the table is there for possible future development.

 

[Quintus]

THANK YOU..! This was a great thread. We had a full hour of arguing about the same example posted in the book and the written rules, concerning the double roll vs single roll system. Glad you discussed this again...!

Please keep up the comments - they help alot! Thanks again to all that contributed, on all sides of the discussion.!!!

Q...