Mongoose Foreven Sector Data (With Borders!) for TravellerMap

[MasterGwydion]

I don't see the need to be so totally black & white about this. There is no need to be 100% homebrew or 100% OTU, surely? If you want, you could be 95% OTU and 5% homebrew, for instance.

It is common for designers to create [interfaces!placeholders] that allow users to integrate their custom-built homebrew solutions with more established, branded content. Such as found in computer operating systems, mobile phones, social messaging platforms, stationary, photo printing shops, oterh game systems.

For instance, in the past few weeks, I've enjoyed playing UNO with friends. In UNO, there are wildcards that can impose penalties on other players. The creators have also provided "blank" wildcards, which let players invent their own penalties. This adds a creative twist to a relatively simple game.

It's mildly disappointing that some people here can't understand that point of view. However, it doesn't bother me; I can simply choose not to purchase one sector sourcebook and use the missing sub-sectors as placeholders to create my own homebrew content that fits within the broader Official Traveller Universe. This approach allows me to enjoy the best of both worlds.

So, let's have a CSOTHU = Crowd Shared Official Traveller Hybrid Universe.

Any takers?

To Me, this is mostly how I game. I take an already created setting and then modify it to fit My needs. If something doesn't fit My game, I remove it and put something else in its place, but it absolutely amazes Me how many people in here want to denigrate Me for how I game, just to prevent them from grabbing a blank sector map and saying this is Foreven Sector. Every sector is a GM preserve. Just grab a blank sector map and write up whatever they wish to include, but no! They want to prevent everyone else who doesn't want to write their own sector from ever playing in Foreven.

Now explain to Me how I am the bad guy here?

 

[Condottiere]

You can do what you like in there, as a Dungeon Master, since canonically it's not going to affect anything anywhere else.

Full blown invasions by cat girls, civil wars fought by little ponies, dogs of war let loose, esper espionage, artificial intelligence assimilations.

Or, carve out a pocket empire.

 

[Terry Mixon]

You can do what you like in there, as a Dungeon Master, since canonically it's not going to affect anything anywhere else.

Full blown invasions by cat girls, civil wars fought by little ponies, dogs of war let loose, esper espionage, artificial intelligence assimilations.

Or, carve out a pocket empire.

Wrong side of Charted Space for miniature K’kree to invade, but hey, I won’t judge.

 

[Condottiere]

Wormholes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You can do what you like in there, as a Dungeon Master, since canonically it's not going to affect anything anywhere else.

Full blown invasions by cat girls, civil wars fought by little ponies, dogs of war let loose, esper espionage, artificial intelligence assimilations.

Or, carve out a pocket empire.

Anything published after campaign start isn't part of My existing TU. Maybe I would incorporate into the next campaign, but not usually in an already started one. So even if they change it after I start My campaign, nothing changes. It may in the next campaign, but not in the current one, and, as always, as a Referee, I can just rule that the change didn't happen, since it is My TU. What I cannot do is decide that something exists when there is nothing written about it. Then I have to homebrew a whole sector so entitled gronards won't have to print out a blank sector map.

Edit: As an example. It would be like banning McDonald's from serving Big Macs because some gronards don't want the advertising for Big Macs taking attention away from their double cheeseburgers. So, yes, let's deny everyone else something simply because We don't wish to use it in Our campaigns. That is dumb and selfish.

 

[Nelphine]

i'd appreciate it if you'd stop calling people who have a playstyle different than you various insulting names. it's not even me, and you can dislike it all you want, but no need to get personal about it.

 

[Anstett]

Wormholes.

Milton

{in the middle of storm prep}

 

[MasterGwydion]

i'd appreciate it if you'd stop calling people who have a playstyle different than you various insulting names. it's not even me, and you can dislike it all you want, but no need to get personal about it.

It is not a matter of playstyles. It is a matter of penalizing one group for the benefit of no one. Explain to Me how just treating Foreven as if it were empty is more of a burden than having to write an entire sector when you do not want to?

You can try and twist it however you want, but you are arguing for less inclusion, not more inclusion with the player base. Requiring those who do not wish to create a whole sector is way more restricting than just having those who wish the sector was empty and who wish to fill it with their own material, to ignore the written material and do just that. They want to create the sector so that is not a burden for them. It is a burden for those who do not wish to do that. What part of that can you not understand? Doing it my way costs nothing for those who wish to create their own sector anyhow. Doing it your way, forces those of us that do not wish to write our own sector to have to write one anyway.

 

[Limpin Legin]

To Me, this is mostly how I game.

Needs more in the Traveller Companion about running your own campaigns in parallel with OTU stuff. A bit on identifying OTU sectors that are little written upon; interfacing OTU subsectors with homebrew subs-sectors; writing timelines in parallel to OTU events and milestones; and just simply encouraging referees to write their own Sector's "backstory."

You can do what you like in there, as a Dungeon Master,

High and Dry: A DM would never let players get 100D+ away for them to try their newly acquired FTL.

Full blown invasions by cat girls, civil wars fought by little ponies, dogs of war let loose, esper espionage, artificial intelligence assimilations.

I like batty ideas too. So long as it is not revelling in ironic humour that simply turns participants into the victim.

Or, carve out a pocket empire.

Pocket Empires presented with a bit of Tropico flavour would be compelling.

Anything published after campaign start isn't part of My existing TU. Maybe I would incorporate into the next campaign, but not usually in an already started one.

That too is fabulous. Thank you sir.

 

[Nelphine]

It is not a matter of playstyles. It is a matter of penalizing one group for the benefit of no one. Explain to Me how just treating Foreven as if it were empty is more of a burden than having to write an entire sector when you do not want to?

You can try and twist it however you want, but you are arguing for less inclusion, not more inclusion with the player base. Requiring those who do not wish to create a whole sector is way more restricting than just having those who wish the sector was empty and who wish to fill it with their own material, to ignore the written material and do just that. They want to create the sector so that is not a burden for them. It is a burden for those who do not wish to do that. What part of that can you not understand? Doing it my way costs nothing for those who wish to create their own sector anyhow. Doing it your way, forces those of us that do not wish to write our own sector to have to write one anyway.

you've continued to ignore the very premise of everything i've said.

Some people play by rules as written. If there is a sector written, they, per the agreement of their table, MUST FOLLOW IT. Whether you want to dismiss that or say 'well, they can just change it if they want', at their table they have agreed NOT to do that. Their players expect to be able to use the information that is formally published, and have it be accurate.

Publishing the sector, LITERALLY prevents them from creating something there.

Following rules as written is a very serious playstyle for some people. As you yourself have said elsewhere, ignoring the rules that are written, means that no rule is sacred, and now dex 6 means +27 to hit. Whether you or I think that's reasonable, that's still a playstyle some people go with.

 

[Vormaerin]

Because taking most of the Imperial-Zhodani interface region and putting crime scene tape around it was a bad idea then and is a bad idea now.

And other people think it is a great idea. That was, in fact, explicitly the point. "You can build your homebrew and put it where the action is. Everything *we* build will be in the Spinward, so you can play off of it or not."

If you stick the "GM Preserve" far, far away from anything then there's no reason for those customers to actually buy any of your stuff, because you've told them to GTFO.

For this to be a problem, you need to
1) want to play in an area close enough to actually travel there
2) Have players who go "Oh, let's go to the blank space" even if you aren't interested in filling it in
3) absolutely refuse to do the homebrew to accomodate those players, but not be willing to say "hey, I don't have time to do that up. Can you please make a different plan?"

And the proposed solution is to tell everyone who wants to append their homebrew to the most popular play area that they are playing wrong and need to not only homebrew their own content (which they want to do) but also undo the content that gets written for the area that veteran players will be familiar with and that will affect published material (making that more work to use).

I have not a lot of sympathy for that viewpoint, especially since its been a policy for 35 years without the world ending.

 

[tytalan]

So on one side you have those of us that think with how things have changed and all the official stuff and campaigns around it as well as it possibly being useful in a FFW campaign, we believe the Foreven needs to be flushed out because the “GM Reserve “ is out of date and no longer needed. When this was first stated 35 years ago the charted space map ended at Far Frontiers as well as being much smaller. The majority of everything was centered around the Spinward marches. Now that not the case.

On the other side we have the it’s always been this way and it can never change otherwise we have no where to make our own (never mind the vast areas not detailed some of which only have sector names.

You don’t have to use it if they publish it but it vastly help those of use that don’t have the time to create this sector which is strongly Zhodani influenced. Especially since we already have the UWPs

 

[Nelphine]

So on one side you have those of us that think how things have changed and all the official stuff and campaings around it as well as it possibly being useful in a FFW campaign, we believe that Foreven needs to be kept as a "GM Reserve" because its ever more useful to have a spot that can be custom built without contradicting rules as written. When this was first stated 35 years ago, the charted space map ended at Far Frontiers as well as being much smaller. The majority of everything was much easier to add custom built areas in. Now that not the case.

On the other side we have the 'I don't want to plan my adventure or talk to my players in such a way as to avoid this section and that must change otherwise we have nowhere else that's already fleshed out that we can play (never mind all the other detailed areas which have massive amounts of detail).

You don't have to use it since they don't publish it, but it vastly helps those of us that don't want to contradict rules as written to have an empty sector which is strongly Zhodani influenced. Especially since the FFW keeps making this region super interesting to play in.

 

[Vormaerin]

As the Travellerwiki says in their commentary page on the Foreven Sector (the /meta page, not the main page that lays out the policy)

 

[Grognardia]

Look, I'm not dying on this hill, but I find it odd that people can’t leave Foreven alone. It was meant to be a GM’s playground - Marc Miller’s document even explains that. It’s a blank space for us to homebrew, free from official lore.

Why start filling it in when there are plenty of other sectors for official content? Once it’s published, people feel boxed in.

You can read more in Marc’s 2008 statement here: https://www.farfuture.net/FFEForevenSectorReserve2008.pdf

 

[Condottiere]

If you treat everything that comes out of Foreven as fan fiction, interesting to read, not necessarily true, anyone can publish anything on what's happening there.

Within technological level parameters.

 

[tytalan]

So on one side you have those of us that think how things have changed and all the official stuff and campaings around it as well as it possibly being useful in a FFW campaign, we believe that Foreven needs to be kept as a "GM Reserve" because its ever more useful to have a spot that can be custom built without contradicting rules as written.

Yet now there’s 10 times as much unpublished areas for you to use. And RAW is a fallacy most often used as a justification for broke stuff that happens not to be covered in the rules.

You don't have to use it since they don't publish it, but it vastly helps those of us that don't want to contradict rules as written to have an empty sector which is strongly Zhodani influenced. Especially since the FFW keeps making this region super interesting to play in.

So you’re going to force the rest of us not to use that sector in FFW because not everyone has tons of free time to create the sector. Thank for punishing and denying Foreven to the rest of us.

On the other side we have the 'I don't want to plan my adventure or talk to my players in such a way as to avoid this section and that must change otherwise we have nowhere else that's already fleshed out that we can play (never mind all the other detailed areas which have massive amounts of detail).

Oh know how dare I run a sandbox campaign and give my players free access to the game.

 

[tytalan]

Why start filling it in when there are plenty of other sectors for official content? Once it’s published, people feel boxed in. Let’s keep Foreven as the place for endless possibilities, just like it was intended. You can read more in Marc’s 2008 statement here: https://www.farfuture.net/FFEForevenSectorReserve2008.pdf

A statement made 35 years ago and is no longer relevant, the setting has change and the reasons for this are no longer relevant. Why because it’s very much connected to both FFW and Sky Raiders meaning it’s now very relevant to many campaigns.

 

[MasterGwydion]

you've continued to ignore the very premise of everything i've said.

Some people play by rules as written. If there is a sector written, they, per the agreement of their table, MUST FOLLOW IT. Whether you want to dismiss that or say 'well, they can just change it if they want', at their table they have agreed NOT to do that. Their players expect to be able to use the information that is formally published, and have it be accurate.

Publishing the sector, LITERALLY prevents them from creating something there.

If you believe this, you do not have the maturity to be gaming. You can make believe space ships, alien races, and space magic, but you can't separate out the difference between rules and setting. Can't understand the difference between the published OTU and your table's TU.

Following rules as written is a very serious playstyle for some people. As you yourself have said elsewhere, ignoring the rules that are written, means that no rule is sacred, and now dex 6 means +27 to hit. Whether you or I think that's reasonable, that's still a playstyle some people go with.

Setting details are not rules. Rules are game mechanics. Charted Space is not a game mechanic. Try again.

 

[Nelphine]

Again, you're trying to dictate to another table how they play. You don't have to agree, and you can keep insulting them with things like calling them immature, but a) that doesn't make it true, b) it makes it very hard to take your arguments seriously and c) it doesn't give any reason why they shouldn't continue to play that way which is any more compelling than us trying to tell you that you should just ignore that sector.