lastbesthope
Mongoose
At least you have smaller numbers for that:
1 in 13,983,816 chance of winning!
LBH
1 in 13,983,816 chance of winning!
LBH
Mistakes in the Galactic Guide
- Thread starter Pauly_D
- Start date
Aramanthus
Mongoose
???????
lastbesthope
Mongoose
What has you dazed and confuzzled aramanthus?
LBH
LBH
Reagan Storme
Mongoose
Lizard,
Not so much a mistake, more an oversight... What is the unnamed system that joins Krindar, Daltron and Dura? It is listed as a Minor Race Homeworld. Has this been covered in another product?
Thanks,
Reagan Storme
---------------------------------
"With the sound like cannons came the Herald of the Storm - Reagan Storme" - Excerpt From the Tales of The Coming Storm
Not so much a mistake, more an oversight... What is the unnamed system that joins Krindar, Daltron and Dura? It is listed as a Minor Race Homeworld. Has this been covered in another product?
Thanks,
Reagan Storme
---------------------------------
"With the sound like cannons came the Herald of the Storm - Reagan Storme" - Excerpt From the Tales of The Coming Storm
One of my problems with the galactic guide is that there is no sense of scale on the map. How much of the galaxy is shown therein? A lot of people have been asking for maps spinward of Centauri Prime, but I didn't even know if there was anything spinward of that region or if that was supposed to be the edge of the galaxy. As shown, this map could be anything from a map of 1/4 of the galaxy to just a map of the spiral arm (one of the reasons why I wasn't sure if Centauri space was the spinward edge of the map).
Now the text of the galactic guide and several other of the books makes it clear that the map isn't of the entire galaxy but this sort of contradicts the B5 series in which it is stated several times that the events of the series are happening on a galactic scale. Take a look at the map in the war room. It's a map of the whole galaxy. Surely they wouldn't have a map of the whole galaxy if they were only able to travel across a small fraction of it.
I also realize that the show was often talking about exploration as well but I always thought that was just exploring the worlds between jump gates or looking for new jump gates. I figured that the jump gates were scattered across the entire galaxy so it was possible to go from one end to the other in a relatively short time (maybe a couple of months) but some of the areas in between took far longer because of their lack of gates.
What prompted this idea that only a small fraction of the galaxy is known to the B5 races?
Now the text of the galactic guide and several other of the books makes it clear that the map isn't of the entire galaxy but this sort of contradicts the B5 series in which it is stated several times that the events of the series are happening on a galactic scale. Take a look at the map in the war room. It's a map of the whole galaxy. Surely they wouldn't have a map of the whole galaxy if they were only able to travel across a small fraction of it.
I also realize that the show was often talking about exploration as well but I always thought that was just exploring the worlds between jump gates or looking for new jump gates. I figured that the jump gates were scattered across the entire galaxy so it was possible to go from one end to the other in a relatively short time (maybe a couple of months) but some of the areas in between took far longer because of their lack of gates.
What prompted this idea that only a small fraction of the galaxy is known to the B5 races?
JMS is a great writer. However, his main concern was in telling a story, not building a universe. The TV show was notoriously inconsistent about the size of the galaxy, the speed of travel, etc -- JMS said his ships travel "at the speed of plot". Despite the graphics in the war room on the show, all prior B5 games have assumed that only a relatively small portion of the galaxy is 'known space', and this also fits with the nature of the show -- it's clear that are a few dozen star systems known to the major races, not the millions constitute the galaxy proper. That Earth was able to find unclaimed worlds suitable for colonization, as well as races no one had ever met before (I believe it was sheridan who handled a first contact personally) indicates that much of the galaxy remains unexplored, at least by the younger races. (The periodic depradations of the Shadow/Vorlon war might keep any Empire from expanding too far.)
Also, the younger races tavel primarily along the jumpgate networks -- and there's no real correspondence between hyperspace and realspace. The map might well cover the entire galaxy, but also encompass a vanihsingly small percentage of the stars within it. However, I find its more consistent to assume that 'known space' is a bubble 75-100 light years across. This makes sense in terms of number of worlds, travel times, references to actual stars, etc.
Also, the younger races tavel primarily along the jumpgate networks -- and there's no real correspondence between hyperspace and realspace. The map might well cover the entire galaxy, but also encompass a vanihsingly small percentage of the stars within it. However, I find its more consistent to assume that 'known space' is a bubble 75-100 light years across. This makes sense in terms of number of worlds, travel times, references to actual stars, etc.
I understand your explanation and I understand that you did it that way for future role playing possibilities with even newer races. The text of many of the books pretty much sets in stone that this map doesn't cover the entire galaxy since it says that there are worlds more Coreward of the Centauri Empire, so your secondary explanation isn't possible.
Personally I would have preferred the idea that the characters on B5 can travel the length and breadth of the galaxy but there are huge areas between jump gates where the exploration and new races come in. This, I think, would have been more consistent especially given the fact that Londo and Morden divide the galaxy into two pieces between the two of them. It would be strange to make such an agreement if the Centauri Empire still doesn't even have access to that other side of the galaxy.
Still, even taking what you say as the canon of a B5 game, I wish that the map included a scale that allowed me to tell how much of the galaxy was represented therein. I also wish that there was some sort of compass on there that told direction. I eventually figured out which way Coreward, Spinward, etc were but it took a while. Also, I think whoever is writing the entries for these books needs to realize that spinward and anti-spinward would not be straight directions. They are an arc. Worlds that are across the map from each other are not necessarily spinward or anti-spinward of each other. There would often be a coreward or rimward component to the direction as well.
Beyond that, I will say that I find a 100 light year bubble to be to small. We know that not every world has a jump gate, so there has to be plenty of room within the bubble that contains the series for there not only to be the races that we have seen but also plenty of dead worlds and worlds without jump gates. 100 light years would probably be the minimum just to contain the lifeforms that we know of if they were tightly packed together. Maybe 1000 light years is more reasonable keeping in mind that the galaxy is something like 70,000 light years across. This would still leave a huge segment of the galaxy unexplored while giving the races that we know of room to expand without directly confronting each other.
Personally I would have preferred the idea that the characters on B5 can travel the length and breadth of the galaxy but there are huge areas between jump gates where the exploration and new races come in. This, I think, would have been more consistent especially given the fact that Londo and Morden divide the galaxy into two pieces between the two of them. It would be strange to make such an agreement if the Centauri Empire still doesn't even have access to that other side of the galaxy.
Still, even taking what you say as the canon of a B5 game, I wish that the map included a scale that allowed me to tell how much of the galaxy was represented therein. I also wish that there was some sort of compass on there that told direction. I eventually figured out which way Coreward, Spinward, etc were but it took a while. Also, I think whoever is writing the entries for these books needs to realize that spinward and anti-spinward would not be straight directions. They are an arc. Worlds that are across the map from each other are not necessarily spinward or anti-spinward of each other. There would often be a coreward or rimward component to the direction as well.
Beyond that, I will say that I find a 100 light year bubble to be to small. We know that not every world has a jump gate, so there has to be plenty of room within the bubble that contains the series for there not only to be the races that we have seen but also plenty of dead worlds and worlds without jump gates. 100 light years would probably be the minimum just to contain the lifeforms that we know of if they were tightly packed together. Maybe 1000 light years is more reasonable keeping in mind that the galaxy is something like 70,000 light years across. This would still leave a huge segment of the galaxy unexplored while giving the races that we know of room to expand without directly confronting each other.
Since there is no 'official' ration of hyperspace->realspace distance, your 'gut feeling' for how big Known Space is is as good as mine, but consider this -- there are an estimated 14,000 stars within 100 light years of earth. (I know that's bigger than a hundred LY diameter bubble, but still). There's about 200 stars shown on the map. That leaves a whole lot of stars...
Within 50 light years of Earth, there are 300 Sol-type stars.
(http://astron.berkeley.edu/~gmarcy/sciam.html). There are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy. If the starmap covered all (or even a large portion) of the galaxy, that makes intelligent life to be frighteningly rare -- and that's not at all the implication of the B5 universe, which is a universe teeming with sentient beings. (Of course, you could argue that the jump networks only link those worlds with intelligent life or which are likely to hold it, so most of the galaxy is an unexplored wasteland, but, even so...200 out of 100 bllion? It doesn't fit, at least not to me. The casualness with which most races befoul habitable worlds implies they are commonplace things. Many go un- or under- exploited, ignored or unsettled.
This is my inference, of course. YMMV.
Within 50 light years of Earth, there are 300 Sol-type stars.
(http://astron.berkeley.edu/~gmarcy/sciam.html). There are 100 billion stars in the Milky Way galaxy. If the starmap covered all (or even a large portion) of the galaxy, that makes intelligent life to be frighteningly rare -- and that's not at all the implication of the B5 universe, which is a universe teeming with sentient beings. (Of course, you could argue that the jump networks only link those worlds with intelligent life or which are likely to hold it, so most of the galaxy is an unexplored wasteland, but, even so...200 out of 100 bllion? It doesn't fit, at least not to me. The casualness with which most races befoul habitable worlds implies they are commonplace things. Many go un- or under- exploited, ignored or unsettled.
This is my inference, of course. YMMV.
Traveller-61
Mongoose
I feel you should read this: Edited [/quote]
I think that we can all agree that the true canon can only be the shows / movies and those novels cited as canon by JMS. The AOG stuff is very good (and I own every bit of it
) but is not always 100% to the show, they just did the best they could and so do Mongoose, who now hold the license and have to get their stuff approved as well.
To see what happens when two companies both are producing "canon" products see the Dilgar - the AOG designs look nothing like the ones produced for the Sierra PC game - yet both companies claimed (rightly) that JMS had approved their works as canon. As Dilgar ships never appeared on the screen who was ultimately right we will never know.
DW
I think that we can all agree that the true canon can only be the shows / movies and those novels cited as canon by JMS. The AOG stuff is very good (and I own every bit of it
) but is not always 100% to the show, they just did the best they could and so do Mongoose, who now hold the license and have to get their stuff approved as well.To see what happens when two companies both are producing "canon" products see the Dilgar - the AOG designs look nothing like the ones produced for the Sierra PC game - yet both companies claimed (rightly) that JMS had approved their works as canon. As Dilgar ships never appeared on the screen who was ultimately right we will never know.
DW
The Cheat
Mongoose
Obviously, canon is what JMS says it is. In this case, that's AOG, and you can't disregard it.
And as for Sierra, it doesn't exist. Sure, they made a bunch of stuff, but neither completed it nor released it, so its not canon, even if it looks more like Ja'dur's ship (which I think the Minbari made for her).
Anyway, AOG's Dilgar are more fun!
And as for Sierra, it doesn't exist. Sure, they made a bunch of stuff, but neither completed it nor released it, so its not canon, even if it looks more like Ja'dur's ship (which I think the Minbari made for her).
Anyway, AOG's Dilgar are more fun!
Traveller-61
Mongoose
The Cheat said:Anyway, AOG's Dilgar are more fun!
That we can both agree on! :lol:
DW
Pauly_D
Mongoose
Traveller-61 said:
I think that we can all agree that the true canon can only be the shows / movies and those novels cited as canon by JMS. The AOG stuff is very good (and I own every bit of it
) but is not always 100% to the show, they just did the best they could and so do Mongoose, who now hold the license and have to get their stuff approved as well.To see what happens when two companies both are producing "canon" products see the Dilgar - the AOG designs look nothing like the ones produced for the Sierra PC game - yet both companies claimed (rightly) that JMS had approved their works as canon. As Dilgar ships never appeared on the screen who was ultimately right we will never know.
DW[/quote]
well with the Dilgar there isnt alot of canon from the show, even in the episode "Deathwalker" all we find out about the Dilgar is that Jha'Dur was the last of them, they bombed and invaded most the league and conducted biological experiments on a Narn colony, there isnt really anything from the show that puts doubt into anything that AOG wrote
Traveller-61
Mongoose
Pauly_D said:
I agree with you there, but I was talking about the designs of the spacecraft, and those were never seen on the show. Both AOG & Sierra produced designs that were very different and both were approved as canon by JMS.
Of couse the Sierra game was never produced (although Mongoose has used pictures of their Dilgar in the League book) but the work could still be considered canon as it was approved.
For my 0.02cr I'm glad Mongoose went the AOG way!
DW
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Traveller-61 said:
There were clips from the game on the B5 A-Z CD ROM, not sure what ships showed up in them thoough.
LBH
Traveller-61
Mongoose
I actually played an early version of the game at a con in LA. It was fun trying to fly a Starfury, shoot up Narns and Minbari and to try to dock with B5 (alas they would never open the bay doors for me!).
It was a real pity it was abandoned, I've still got a couple of the posters they were giving away to promote it (an Omega with Starfuries coming through a jump gate), one signed by Michael O'Hare
DW
It was a real pity it was abandoned, I've still got a couple of the posters they were giving away to promote it (an Omega with Starfuries coming through a jump gate), one signed by Michael O'Hare
DW
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Traveller-61 said:It was a real pity it was abandoned, I've still got a couple of the posters they were giving away to promote it (an Omega with Starfuries coming through a jump gate), one signed by Michael O'Hare
DW
Right, I need a crowbar, a hire car, and directions to Lyonesse :lol:
LBH
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