Missile Attacks and Thrown Weapons

[Foxworthy]

Quickdraw is from the SRD, Conan's version goes on about being able to pull weapons on other peoples actions...

I'm looking at the equipment section of the SRD and I can't see anywhere in it that it says bows require a certain action to fire. Crossbows yes, bows no.

They use the terminology of "light" and "one handed" because no all light and one handed weapons are throwable. Throwing a broadsword is a standard action, but it's still an improvised range weapon. Throwing a greatsword is a full round action, and a improvised range weapon.

 

[Foxworthy]

Here we go... I looked in the D&D FAQ and found this...

The Rapid Shot feat description says you get two attacks
at –2 as a full-round action. When your base attack
D&D FAQ 22 6/27/03
becomes +6/+1 do you get a third attack after the Rapid
Shot attacks? The way I see it, you get one or the other, but
Rapid Shot gives you +4/+4. If this is so, doesn’t having
multiple attacks make Rapid Shot obsolete?
The Rapid Shot feat allows you to make one extra attack
with a projectile weapon at your base attack bonus (not two
attacks). To use the feat, you must use the full attack action,
and all the attacks you make during that full attack action suffer
a –2 penalty. If your base attack bonus is +6, you make two
attacks with the full attack action at +6/+1, if you use Rapid
Shot with that full attack action, you make 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1

 

[VincentDarlage]

If your base attack bonus is +6, you make two attacks with the full attack action at +6/+1, if you use Rapid Shot with that full attack action, you make 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1

I guess that ends that debate! Bows do indeed get iterative attacks, just like in DnD.

 

[Sutek]

Here we go... I looked in the D&D FAQ and found this...

The Rapid Shot feat description says you get two attacks at –2 as a full-round action. When your base attack D&D FAQ 22 6/27/03 becomes +6/+1 do you get a third attack after the Rapid
Shot attacks? The way I see it, you get one or the other, but Rapid Shot gives you +4/+4. If this is so, doesn’t having multiple attacks make Rapid Shot obsolete?

The Rapid Shot feat allows you to make one extra attack with a projectile weapon at your base attack bonus (not two attacks). To use the feat, you must use the full attack action, and all the attacks you make during that full attack action suffer a –2 penalty. If your base attack bonus is +6, you make two attacks with the full attack action at +6/+1, if you use Rapid Shot with that full attack action, you make 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1

That is (A) for D&D and (B) deals with the Rapid Shot feat. It doesn't address whether one get's iterative attack to start with, but it does seem to retroactively suggest that it was intended to be that way. SO, I suppose that the entry dealing with multiple attacks on page 157 of ConanAE is universal and cancels the rules listed in the equipment section altogether. Those rules are irrelevant I guess?

Here's stuff directly from the SRD, foxworthy (underlining mine):

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.
Projectile Weapons: Light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions). A character gets no Strength bonus on damage rolls with a projectile weapon unless it’s a specially built composite shortbow, specially built composite longbow, or sling. If the character has a penalty for low Strength, apply it to damage rolls when he or she uses a bow or a sling.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), or sling bullets (for slings). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading. Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while normal ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost.

If your base attack bonus is +6, you make two attacks with the full attack action at +6/+1, if you use Rapid Shot with that full attack action, you make 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1

I guess that ends that debate! Bows do indeed get iterative attacks, just like in DnD.

Well, it's froma FAQ about a totally different game and found in relation to a feat that rather than actual combat rules, but I suppose it'll have to do.

I still feel the equipment coupled with the combat rules lends to ranged combat requiring either a standard or full-round action regardless of character "quickness". Otherwise, why emphasise that it takes a standard/full-round action to do that in the first place?

Oh well... :roll:

 

[Tegman]

If you look at the downloadable NPCs in the Conan section, the bowyers can all fire multiple times at higher levels. You don't think that the creators should have thought about it if it wasn't correct?

The same goes for DnD, bowyers get to fire multiple shots if they use a full round to do so and if they have BAB 6+.

I don't understand why you (Sutek) can't admit that the rules work that way? Instead you hang on to things that are written for improvised weapons etc instead of listening to what all the others here say?
It's like you have already made up your mind and doesn't want to change. If you want bowyers to be able to fire only once per round, then say so, but originally they can fire several times, if allowed to do so.

Sorry if my post sounds harsh, but after reading this I just had to say something :roll:

 

[Trodax]

Sutek; I haven't found a line in the combat rules that specifically states that you get iterative attacks with bows, so I can see how you made the mistake of assuming that you don't. For it to be really clear, I guess the description of the full-attack action should have said something like: "You also get iterative attacks when firing a bow, but not when using thrown weapons (unless you have the Quick Draw feat)."
On the other hand, I have definitely not found anything that supports your position either.

As to the equipment rules... :

It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

The sentence you are referring to all the time (in red) is surrounded by text (in blue) that is clearly talking about improvised thrown weapons. Therefore, it must be assumed that this whole piece of text is talking about throwing improvised weapons. How you can be reading it any other way....well, I just don't get that.

As to bows, I've found nothing in the equipment rules that limits them to one attack per round.

Also, all d20 supplements I have (D&D, as well as Conan) have NPCs written up with iterative attacks for bows on a full-attack action. Would all of those instances be mistakes?

 

[VincentDarlage]

That is (A) for D&D and (B) deals with the Rapid Shot feat. It doesn't address whether one get's iterative attack to start with, but it does seem to retroactively suggest that it was intended to be that way. SO, I suppose that the entry dealing with multiple attacks on page 157 of ConanAE is universal and cancels the rules listed in the equipment section altogether. Those rules are irrelevant I guess?

I still feel the equipment coupled with the combat rules lends to ranged combat requiring either a standard or full-round action regardless of character "quickness". Otherwise, why emphasise that it takes a standard/full-round action to do that in the first place?

The only equipment "rules" you are showing deals with thrown weapons and crossbows. Do your characters throw their bows? So the rule in Conan AE is universal except in regards to improvised thrown weapons and crossbows.

 

[Foxworthy]

Fine Sutek, give me a source in the combat section that says you get iterative attacks with melee weapons.

I've yet to see anythign that spells it out.

If you want to read things that aren't there then you don't get iterative attacks with melee attacks either.

And those highly debated rules you say a re worthless are for improvised thrown weapons. Cause they are seperate from normal throwing weapons.

 

[Sutek]

Argh.

Look:

A) the combat section says that if you take multiple attack, it has to be a full-round action. (p157 AE, col2, Multiple Attacks)

B) at +6 BAB, characters are allowed to mak an extra melee attack. +11 BAB gets 3 per round. (p39AE, col1, Base Attack Bonus

C) the Equipment section speaks of ranged weapons, stating that "throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standarad action while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action".

In note (C), the weapon itself "slows" things down so that a light weapon takes a standarad action to throw. 1 weapon, one action. In the melee weapons part of the equipment section, no such restiction is given, therefore the equipment does not "slow" the weilder. He may act at his BAB rate. The only thing that seems to validate shooting or throwing more than once in a round is the Quick Draw feat.

Put it another way: does threowing 8+ throwing knives OR one two-handed sword sound like even? Not only that, but throwing 8+ throwing knives and still getting a move action versus doing nothing but throwing a warsword takes the full-round, with no move action allowed. That makes no sense; less sense, in fact, than limiting shooting.

 

[Sutek]

That is (A) for D&D and (B) deals with the Rapid Shot feat. It doesn't address whether one get's iterative attack to start with, but it does seem to retroactively suggest that it was intended to be that way. SO, I suppose that the entry dealing with multiple attacks on page 157 of ConanAE is universal and cancels the rules listed in the equipment section altogether. Those rules are irrelevant I guess?

I still feel the equipment coupled with the combat rules lends to ranged combat requiring either a standard or full-round action regardless of character "quickness". Otherwise, why emphasise that it takes a standard/full-round action to do that in the first place?

The only equipment "rules" you are showing deals with thrown weapons and crossbows. Do your characters throw their bows? So the rule in Conan AE is universal except in regards to improvised thrown weapons and crossbows.

No, that's silly, Vincent. The question was about throwing knives so I looked for pertinent rules, and the ones dealing with throwing seemed to sort of be the ones to look at.

There's no need to start getting sarcastic.

 

[Trodax]

A) the combat section says that if you take multiple attack, it has to be a full-round action. (p157 AE, col2, Multiple Attacks)

Yeah, sure; thats a given.

B) at +6 BAB, characters are allowed to mak an extra melee attack. +11 BAB gets 3 per round. (p39AE, col1, Base Attack Bonus

No, it says you get extra attacks, not extra melee attacks.

C) the Equipment section speaks of ranged weapons, stating that "throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standarad action while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action".

First of all, that statement is only about thrown weapons. Nowhere does it say that ranged weapons (such as bows) are limited in this way.

Secondly, as I said above and others have said before me, that statement is talking about improvised thrown weapons.

In note (C), the weapon itself "slows" things down so that a light weapon takes a standarad action to throw. 1 weapon, one action. In the melee weapons part of the equipment section, no such restiction is given, therefore the equipment does not "slow" the weilder. He may act at his BAB rate. The only thing that seems to validate shooting or throwing more than once in a round is the Quick Draw feat.

Again, all you're talking about here are improvised thrown weapons.

Put it another way: does threowing 8+ throwing knives OR one two-handed sword sound like even?

Sure; throwing 8 knives is quite a lot. But we are talking about a guy with BAB +16, Quick Draw and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting; this is a seriously badass knife-thrower. :wink:

Not only that, but throwing 8+ throwing knives and still getting a move action versus doing nothing but throwing a warsword takes the full-round, with no move action allowed.

To get the of use your iterative attacks you, of course, have to use the full-attack action. Therefore, the guy with the 8 knives couldn't move either.

 

[VincentDarlage]

The question was about throwing knives so I looked for pertinent rules, and the ones dealing with throwing seemed to sort of be the ones to look at.

My argument is not about improvised thrown weapons.

The 1st question was (emphasis mine):

1.
If a players get multiples attacks, does that include missile weapons e.g bows? So if I had 2 attacks at +6 & +1 could I get off 2 shots?

You replied

1. No.

That is incorrect. With a bow, he does get multiple attacks if he takes a full attack action. The full attack action rules do not say melee weapons only.

 

[Foxworthy]

B) at +6 BAB, characters are allowed to mak an extra melee attack. +11 BAB gets 3 per round. (p39AE, col1, Base Attack Bonus

No, it says you get extra attacks, not extra melee attacks.

Thanks Trodax, I was going to point that out myself.

And is it fair that someone can throw 8 knives before in the same action it takes for someone to throw one two handed sword...

Yes and no, depends on the location of the knives. 8 knives itself seems kinda weird to have but I'm sure there are trained knife throwers that can chuck that many knives before someone throws a two handed sword (effectively)

 

[Sutek]

With a bow, he does get multiple attacks if he takes a full attack action. The full attack action rules do not say melee weapons only.

I disagree. The equipment section states that firing a bow is done as a standard action. To me, that means that's as fast as a bow can be fired. That melee weapons aren't restricted lends to that interpretation. Yes, both a melee attack and a ranged attack are listed as standarad actions in the combat actions table, but it looks to me that the conflict only lies in that Quick Draw seems to indicate that multiple ranged attacks are possiblke in spite of the other rules.

I find it difficult to believe that 8+ shots felt reasonable to the game designers. Particularly in light of the generous "draw ammo as a free action" rule.

 

[Sutek]

B) at +6 BAB, characters are allowed to mak an extra melee attack. +11 BAB gets 3 per round. (p39AE, col1, Base Attack Bonus

No, it says you get extra attacks, not extra melee attacks.

Thanks Trodax, I was going to point that out myself.

And is it fair that someone can throw 8 knives before in the same action it takes for someone to throw one two handed sword...

Yes and no, depends on the location of the knives. 8 knives itself seems kinda weird to have but I'm sure there are trained knife throwers that can chuck that many knives before someone throws a two handed sword (effectively)

So with the Quick Draw feat (draw a wepon as a free action - throw with as many attacks as allowed by BAB) and a specially made harness, my character could carry as many Bardiches as encumberance allows (they only weight 7lbs, so lets just say he can carry only 30) and throw them all as a full-round action (because they are two-handed).

Heck...Zhaibar knives only weigh 3lbs. He can carry even more of those. Screw throwing knives....improvisationally throw zhaibar knives instead. Especially if I can throw 8 per round...and still retain a move action.

:roll:

 

[urdinaran]

C'mon, that's kinda silly don't you think? Carry around 30 Bardiches?

I don't see what the problem would be letting someone design a knife throwing PC, it has character; and, they are spending those feats on a very narrow aspect of combat, they still have to retrieve all those knives; and how many knives are they gonna carry on their person anyway? The City Watch will probably keep a close eye on that fellow. Anyway, what is the range increment on a knife, 10' ? Big wupp.

Kinda reminds me of that crazy white dude that everyone seems to know, that is into ninja stuff, hehe.

 

[Belkregos]

Well I guess you can house rule what you want
But just to change a bit and talking about a bardiche throwing character, check this out

http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=1283

 

[Foxworthy]

No, it says you get extra attacks, not extra melee attacks.

Thanks Trodax, I was going to point that out myself.

And is it fair that someone can throw 8 knives before in the same action it takes for someone to throw one two handed sword...

Yes and no, depends on the location of the knives. 8 knives itself seems kinda weird to have but I'm sure there are trained knife throwers that can chuck that many knives before someone throws a two handed sword (effectively)

So with the Quick Draw feat (draw a wepon as a free action - throw with as many attacks as allowed by BAB) and a specially made harness, my character could carry as many Bardiches as encumberance allows (they only weight 7lbs, so lets just say he can carry only 30) and throw them all as a full-round action (because they are two-handed).

Heck...Zhaibar knives only weigh 3lbs. He can carry even more of those. Screw throwing knives....improvisationally throw zhaibar knives instead. Especially if I can throw 8 per round...and still retain a move action.

:roll:

Do you not know how iterative attacks work? To get a full attack you need to spend a FULL ROUND ACTION, that means to through more then one of anything you can't move.

Also while some people running their games may allow a Bardiche chucker, they would be an improvised two handed thrown weapon, which means it takes a full round to throw one. Kind of like how crossbows say they need to be reloaded.

You seem to be missing something about actions, cause the way you think you seem to miss the fact that attacking once in a round with any weapon over then a two handed improvised throwing weapon is a standard action.

When you full attack it changes that in to a full round attack action.

According to all the rules you've quoted melee weapons don't get iterative attacks.

Doesn't it seem wrong to you?

I think I'm bowing out of this argument now, this is just getting fustrating.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Well I guess you can house rule what you want
But just to change a bit and talking about a bardiche throwing character, check this out

http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=1283

Funny vid. But I get the distinct impression it is a put-on.
That is why people should not dress up!

"This time I'm Conan and you're Subotai!"
"No I was Subotai last time, you jerk!"
"You can't be Conan...cause...cause...okay, when was the last time you even touched a free-weight or did a single sit-up?!"
"Gimme that Atlantean sword, you dweeb!"
"No!"
[Ferocious nerd-struggle ensues. Police sirens in the background draw nigh.]
"Oh s**t--it's the cops!"

:lol:

 

[Belkregos]

, check this out
http://www.StupidVideos.com/?VideoID=1283

Funny vid. But I get the distinct impression it is a put-on.
That is why people should not dress up!
:lol:

yea, the vid is from a parody reality show, but it’s really funny huh