Missile Attacks and Thrown Weapons

[BigSteveUK]

Hi Gents,

Got another rules question?

1.
If a players get multiples attacks, does that include missile weapons e.g bows? So if I had 2 attacks at +6 & +1 could I get off 2 shots?

2.
Thrown weapons, if I have quick draw can i throw as many knives as I have attacks?

3. If yes above, if I have quick draw, multiple attack,2-weapon fighting & improved 2 weapon fighting, once I get 2 4 attacks, could I potentialy throw 8 knives around?

Cheers,

Steve

 

[Sutek]

1. No.

2. No, but you have the weapon ready as a Free Action rather than a Move Action, so that's a decent benefit.

3. Well, the above being the case, sorry...but no.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Less arrows and thrown knives!

Stand toe-to-toe with the badguys and use a sword!

Conan will then be proud of you.

 

[Foxworthy]

1. If a players get multiples attacks, does that include missile weapons e.g bows? So if I had 2 attacks at +6 & +1 could I get off 2 shots?

Yes. You get you iterative attack with bows. You do not get them with thrown weapons, crossbows or arablast with some exceptions.

2. Thrown weapons, if I have quick draw can i throw as many knives as I have attacks?

Yes quick draw allows you to throw at your full rate of fire.

3. If yes above, if I have quick draw, multiple attack,2-weapon fighting & improved 2 weapon fighting, once I get 2 4 attacks, could I potentialy throw 8 knives around?

This one is tough, let's break it down. Two Weapon fighting allows you to throw to weapons, quick draw allows you to throw at full base attack bonus and improved two weapon fighting grants the itertive attacks to the off hand. So I would say if you can hold that many throwing weapons then yes. Mechanically it seems possible. Makes my idea of a dagger throwing thief a bit more dangerous then I thought.

 

[Trodax]

1. If a players get multiples attacks, does that include missile weapons e.g bows? So if I had 2 attacks at +6 & +1 could I get off 2 shots?

Yes, since drawing ammunition is a free action, you get multiple attacks with a bow.

2. Thrown weapons, if I have quick draw can i throw as many knives as I have attacks?

Yes, but only if you have Quick Draw. Without it, you would have to use a move action to draw a second weapon, which would prohibit you from going full-attack.

3. If yes above, if I have quick draw, multiple attack,2-weapon fighting & improved 2 weapon fighting, once I get 2 4 attacks, could I potentialy throw 8 knives around?

Yes, you could. You would have to have all those knives in draw-ready positions, though, so I guess it would be up to the GM to decide if thats possible or not.

 

[Belkregos]

Hmmm..
This question has been raised in the forum before and if I remember correctly the answer was,
1- yes
2- yes
3- yes
(I may have to look up the thread)

The rate of fire of a bow is the same as your number of melee attacks, same with thrown weapons if you have the quick draw feat,
You need 2 hands to use a bow so if you want to fire more arrows than tour melee attack, you have to take the rapid shot feat

 

[Sutek]

There is nothing to indicate iterative attacks are possible with ranged attacks. If you have a page number where it is stated that it is possible, please provide it.

1. If a players get multiples attacks, does that include missile weapons e.g bows? So if I had 2 attacks at +6 & +1 could I get off 2 shots?

Yes, since drawing ammunition is a free action, you get multiple attacks with a bow.

In the Equipment section"the follwoing is stated about thrown weapons:

"Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, whil;e throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."

The following is stated about other ranged weapons:

"When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading."

This however has no bearing on the statement that ranged weapons take a standard action to fire.

I do see where it is stated that a Full-round action must be used to get multiple attacks in the Combat Section. Generally, though, multiple attacks are reserved for melee combat only. This is true even in D&D or from the SRD. As the paragraph is non-specific as to whenther it refers to both melee and ranged attacks, I have to believe that the action limit imposed in the equipment section indicates a physical limitation of the equipment to only be capable of firing as a standard action.

It makes no difference how quick the wielder is - a bow can only be drawn and fired as a standard action.

:citing pages 123 and 157

 

[Foxworthy]

I'll look for definitive answer later, but if you look at King Conan's stats with the Longbow they stat up his full attack option with all of his attacks.

As for the standard action point, swinging a sword is a standard action as well and full attack never mentions melee only.

 

[Sutek]

Actually, it's not. Look in the equipment section and melee weapons are not limited to needing a standard action to wield or use. Throwing and other ranged attacks require a standard action or more because that is the nature of the equipment, not the wielder. Melee weapons have no such requirement.

 

[Foxworthy]

I was going by the actions in combat chart which states attack (melee) is standard just like attack (ranged).

Now I'm using the Pocket Edition so pages refrences would be off. Looking at the Weapon Section, Weapon Catagories and then finaly in Thrown weapons I find the part about what you said, but I find it after they start talking about improvised thrown weapons. From reading that it states that an improvised one handed weapon is thrown as a standrad action and a two handed as a full round action. I see no link to non improvised thrown weapons as being a standard action in that section. And reading the Ranged Weapons description I find no mention of action used to fire the bow or crossbow.

So the only equipment refrence to thrown or ranged weapons taking a specific action type is for improvised weapons.

Also looking in the SRD I haven't found anything that supports this either way. I'll keep looking though.

 

[Foxworthy]

Here's an addition while looking at the Rapid Shot feat... the wording from the SRD which matches the Conan wording states[quote'"SRD"]You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.[/quote] Now looking at the two thing I emphasised it seems that they assume you can get multiple normal attacks.

Sure it's a bit circumstancial but I see nothing anywhere that says that ranged weapons don't get multiple attacks.

 

[Trodax]

"Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, whil;e throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."

Yeah, just like foxworthy said, this sentence is definitely talking about improvised thrown weapons only.

I think the description of the Quick Draw feat states it pretty clearly:
"A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks, much like a character with a bow." (AE, page 116)

The thing that is limiting for thrown weapons is that it normally takes an action to draw a new weapon, and therefore only one can be thrown per turn. With Quick Draw, you may draw those extra weapons as free actions, and can then therefore use your iterative attacks.
For bows, there is no such limitation, since ammunition can be drawn as free actions even without Quick Draw.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Bows do get multiple attacks if the character gets multiple attacks, just as in DnD.

 

[Sutek]

"Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action."

Yeah, just like foxworthy said, this sentence is definitely talking about improvised thrown weapons only.

If that were the case, Trodax, it wouldn't indiacte "light or one-handed" or "two-handed", it would simply indicate "improvised" as the weapon type.

It's something that should be listed in an official errata because it's not the way the rules are written. I see where it's indicated in Quick Draw, but nowhere else is multiple shots with a bow clearly stated.

Even in the 3.5 PHB the wording is identical as far as mechanics goes. Different weapons are given, of course, but the system is the same.

Light and one handed weapons that are goin gto be thrown require a standard action to throw. In the entry for light or one-handed melee weapons, no specification is given for action limitations or requirements, meaning it falls to the normal action capabilities of the weilder. Projectile weapons are limited by thier own physical properties, and therefore require a certain type of action to use; standar or full.

Even in D&D it is not allowed to fire multiple shots with a projectile weapon, thus the Manyshot feat (PHB 97). If it were possible to shoot multiple times in a round, why would anyone ever get that feat? To make two shots with a single attack roll, to be sure, but it should also be noted that ther is no mention of "throw weapons at his full normal attack rate, much like a character with a bow." That's only in Conan.

By that token, I think refering to D&D is apples and oranges. I'll dig through the SRD again, but to my recolllection it has nothing more than what has been mentioned. The reqwuirement of a standard or full-rounnd action is by virtue of the equipment and has no bearing on how many attacks the weilder has. At least in the RAW.

Anyother point: The SRD, as well as the Conan equipoment chapter entry for ranged weapons, indicates that a threat can only ever occur on a roll of a natural 20 and tat the damage is only ever doubled (x2), but Stygian bows have a greater threat range than that, and Slings are indicated as delivering a x3 crit. These points are also inconsistant with the rules as stated in the paragraphs. Personally, I go by the tables as being exceptions to the rule.

Besides actual weapon examples, the SRD and 3.5 PHB are exactly identical in system to that indicated in Conan: equipment requirements for standard and full-round actions apply in place of character multiple attack potential.

 

[VincentDarlage]

I have heard people complain that the Manyshot feat is not that great of a feat, all in all.

In DnD, and in Conan, bows get iterative attacks.

 

[Sutek]

I have heard people complain that the Manyshot feat is not that great of a feat, all in all.

In DnD, and in Conan, bows get iterative attacks.

That may have been the intent, to differ from D&D and the SRD, but it's not stated that way in the rules and, in fact, the only place it is marginally indicated* is in the Quick Draw feat. I admit, it is as if full blown multiple attacks were intended to be legal, but the remainder of the rules, apart from a slight mention in that one feat, contradict and disallow multiple shots at range.

*I say "marginally indicated" because the Quick Draw feat is nor a direct link to the combat rules as a whole, and only meant to modify the "Draw Weapon" move action to a free action. Since this is the only mention in the rules of shooting more than one shot per turn with a projectile attack, it is a marginal representation of that intent at best.

 

[Foxworthy]

If that were the case, Trodax, it wouldn't indiacte "light or one-handed" or "two-handed", it would simply indicate "improvised" as the weapon type.

Actually it does this because they want to make it easier to throw a shortsword thena greatsword.

Even in the 3.5 PHB the wording is identical as far as mechanics goes. Different weapons are given, of course, but the system is the same.

Light and one handed weapons that are goin gto be thrown require a standard action to throw. In the entry for light or one-handed melee weapons, no specification is given for action limitations or requirements, meaning it falls to the normal action capabilities of the weilder. Projectile weapons are limited by thier own physical properties, and therefore require a certain type of action to use; standar or full.

Well here's the rules in from the SRD, emphasis mine.

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

That section only refers to improvised throwing weapons. That's the reason why some throwing weapons have more then a ten foot range and more then a x2 crit. Because they aren't improvised.

Even in D&D it is not allowed to fire multiple shots with a projectile weapon, thus the Manyshot feat (PHB 97). If it were possible to shoot multiple times in a round, why would anyone ever get that feat?

Well let's go to the SRD and I'll bold why people would take that feat.

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

The advantage with Manyshot is that you fire all your arrows as a standard action.

The reqwuirement of a standard or full-rounnd action is by virtue of the equipment and has no bearing on how many attacks the weilder has. At least in the RAW.

No mention of it in the SRD by virtue of equipment. Here quickdraw from the SRD I'll bold the important part

QUICK DRAW [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Special: A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Even in DnD you're supposed to get multiple attacks. If you didn't ranged combat would be worthless compared to melee at high levels.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Even in DnD you're supposed to get multiple attacks. If you didn't ranged combat would be worthless compared to melee at high levels.

Exactly!

Rapid Shot (a prereq for Manyshot) increases the number of attacks per round for bows even further.

 

[Sutek]

If that were the case, Trodax, it wouldn't indiacte "light or one-handed" or "two-handed", it would simply indicate "improvised" as the weapon type.

Actually it does this because they want to make it easier to throw a shortsword thena greatsword.

Any light or one-handed, not improvised. True.

Well here's the rules in from the SRD, emphasis mine.

Thrown Weapons: Daggers, clubs, shortspears, spears, darts, javelins, throwing axes, light hammers, tridents, shuriken, and nets are thrown weapons. The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons). It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

That section only refers to improvised throwing weapons. That's the reason why some throwing weapons have more then a ten foot range and more then a x2 crit. Because they aren't improvised.

I don't think it refers exclusively to improvised thrown weapons because of the simple fact that they use the words "light" and "one-handed" in that last sentance. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Even in D&D it is not allowed to fire multiple shots with a projectile weapon, thus the Manyshot feat (PHB 97). If it were possible to shoot multiple times in a round, why would anyone ever get that feat?

Well let's go to the SRD and I'll bold why people would take that feat.

MANYSHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6
Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a –4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special).
For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to this attack, to a maximum of four arrows at a base attack bonus of +16. However, each arrow after the second adds a cumulative –2 penalty on the attack roll (for a total penalty of –6 for three arrows and –8 for four).
Damage reduction and other resistances apply separately against each arrow fired.
Special: Regardless of the number of arrows you fire, you apply precision-based damage only once. If you score a critical hit, only the first arrow fired deals critical damage; all others deal regular damage.
A fighter may select Manyshot as one of his fighter bonus feats.
A 6th-level ranger who has chosen the archery combat style is treated as having Manyshot even if he does not have the prerequisites for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

The advantage with Manyshot is that you fire all your arrows as a standard action.

Well, according to the base rules, not that feat, you must fir a bow as a standard action anyway. Manyshot allows 2 shots to be fired as a sing standard action, which is what I've already reiterated.

The reqwuirement of a standard or full-rounnd action is by virtue of the equipment and has no bearing on how many attacks the weilder has. At least in the RAW.

No mention of it in the SRD by virtue of equipment. Here quickdraw from the SRD I'll bold the important part

Actually, it is. Look in the equipment sectin of the SRD.

QUICK DRAW [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can draw a weapon as a free action instead of as a move action. You can draw a hidden weapon (see the Sleight of Hand skill) as a move action.
A character who has selected this feat may throw weapons at his full normal rate of attacks (much like a character with a bow).
Normal: Without this feat, you may draw a weapon as a move action, or (if your base attack bonus is +1 or higher) as a free action as part of movement. Without this feat, you can draw a hidden weapon as a standard action.
Special: A fighter may select Quick Draw as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Even in DnD you're supposed to get multiple attacks. If you didn't ranged combat would be worthless compared to melee at high levels.

Yes, but that is the Quick Draw feat from Conan. I didn't look it up in the SRD, but if that's what it says there too, then it's still not reflected in the rest of the rules.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Well, according to the base rules, not that feat, you must fir a bow as a standard action anyway.

You can also fire a bow as a full-round action to get the full attack.