Missile Attacks and Thrown Weapons

[VincentDarlage]

With a bow, he does get multiple attacks if he takes a full attack action. The full attack action rules do not say melee weapons only.

I disagree. The equipment section states that firing a bow is done as a standard action. To me, that means that's as fast as a bow can be fired. That melee weapons aren't restricted lends to that interpretation. Yes, both a melee attack and a ranged attack are listed as standarad actions in the combat actions table, but it looks to me that the conflict only lies in that Quick Draw seems to indicate that multiple ranged attacks are possiblke in spite of the other rules.

Where in the equipment section does it state that it must be a standard action to fire a bow and a full round action cannot be taken?

It is also a standard action to make a single attack with a sword.

 

[BigSteveUK]

Thank you very much for your replies, the majority of you have confirmed the assumption I made, e.g multiple attacks work with melee, ranged and thrown. Just allowing multiple attacks for melee would make a archer based character pointless.

With regards to carrying loads of knives, none of you guys seen Desperado.

Also when you look at the AP of knives, chucking 8 isn't half as dangerous as a psycho barbarian with 2 weapons and power attack.

Finally with regards to evidence that ranged does get multiple attacks, I found a reference in Atlantean edition pg 39, with regards to base attack bonus, which does seem to indicate that if the soldier had a proper +6/+1 he would of been allowed 2 attacks.

Thanks again all of you.

 

[Sutek]

Where in the equipment section does it state that it must be a standard action to fire a bow and a full round action cannot be taken?

It is also a standard action to make a single attack with a sword.

You're correct.

However, even though both a melee and ranged attack are standard actions, other factors make this fact change.

A Cleave attack must be a full-round action, evn though it is just a melee attack. The concept of a melee attack changes based on the feat criteria.

With a projectile weapon, the weapon itself dictates that it uses an entire standard action. Some projectile weapons take even more than that.

Put it another way: Crossbows require an action for reloading. if I have a BAB +11/+6/+1, can I then shoot twice? Once at +11, sacrifice another "action" to reload and then +6 for a second shot? No, because a crossbow requires an action for reloading - not an attack. Attack does not equal action.

Now, it may have been intended that characters can fire or throw many, many shots per round, but the only place it this concept is even supported is in the Quick Draw feat, which is entirely the wrong place for it.

Another point - bows, as most projectile weapons, require two hands to use, technically making them " two-handed weapons" in my mind for the sake of game mechanics where it is otherwise unstated.

 

[Sutek]

Also while some people running their games may allow a Bardiche chucker, they would be an improvised two handed thrown weapon, which means it takes a full round to throw one. Kind of like how crossbows say they need to be reloaded.
quote]

That was my point.

Throwing a two-handed waepon is a full round action, but with Quick Draw I can draw and throw...1 per round.

Ever.

Somehow, through some mystical means, if I switch to a one-handed or light weapon, I can hum (in the original question anyway) 8 weapons per round.

That's crazy. It's broken and it has to be incorrect.

One of two possibilities is the case then:

A) The interpretation of throwing is wrong and 8 attacks per round isn't possible.

B) multi-attaks are possible, but the amount is out of balance between small and large weapons.

 

[Trodax]

A Cleave attack must be a full-round action, evn though it is just a melee attack.

No, it doesn't have to be a full-round action. For Whirlwind Attack, this is true, though, maybe that was what you were thinking of?

With a projectile weapon, the weapon itself dictates that it uses an entire standard action.

Where does it say this??? (Other than the part about improvised thrown weapons.)

Attack does not equal action.

Of course it doesn't. And no one has claimed that in this thread.

Another point - bows, as most projectile weapons, require two hands to use, technically making them " two-handed weapons" in my mind for the sake of game mechanics where it is otherwise unstated.

Yes, of course bows require two hands. The only thing this leads to is that it requires a full-round action to throw a bow at someone.

Throwing a two-handed waepon is a full round action, but with Quick Draw I can draw and throw...1 per round.

Ever.

Somehow, through some mystical means, if I switch to a one-handed or light weapon, I can hum (in the original question anyway) 8 weapons per round.

That's crazy. It's broken and it has to be incorrect.

Throwing an improvised two-handed weapon (like a greatsword) is restricted in this way because it's meant to be hard and something that isn't done very often. I don't think it's broken, and I'm very sure that it's correct.

Anyway, I'm done with this thread; I should have quit a long time ago, but somehow I've just been drawn back even though I've known that this discussion is going nowhere.
Sutek, my advice to you is to reread this thread; there have been a quite a few posts that you seem to have missed or just ignored in your argumentation.

And sorry if that sounded harsh; I'm not really harbouring any bad feelings here, but this thread has been very frustrating. :roll:

 

[VincentDarlage]

Put it another way: Crossbows require an action for reloading. if I have a BAB +11/+6/+1, can I then shoot twice? Once at +11, sacrifice another "action" to reload and then +6 for a second shot? No, because a crossbow requires an action for reloading - not an attack. Attack does not equal action.

Right, but the SRD for Rapid Reload allows light crossbows to fire like a bow:

RAPID RELOAD [GENERAL]
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, or heavy).
Prerequisite: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of crossbow is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow) or a move action (for a heavy crossbow). Reloading a crossbow still provokes an attack of opportunity.
If you have selected this feat for hand crossbow or light crossbow, you may fire that weapon as many times in a full attack action as you could attack if you were using a bow.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, or a full-round action to reload a heavy crossbow.

Again, more evidence that bows can fire multiple times per round.

Another point - bows, as most projectile weapons, require two hands to use, technically making them " two-handed weapons" in my mind for the sake of game mechanics where it is otherwise unstated.

So, one cannot use two handed weapons (greatsword, pole arms) for multiple attacks?

 

[Sutek]

With a projectile weapon, the weapon itself dictates that it uses an entire standard action.

Where does it say this??? (Other than the part about improvised thrown weapons.)

Dammit...it's not only for improvised thrown weapons. Read.

It says you can throw anything even though it doesn't ahve a numeric range value, meaning improvised weapons, with a -4 penalty.

Then it says that throwing a light or one-handed weapons is a standarad action while throwing a two-handed weapons is a full-round action. It's not refering to improvised weapons anymore, but to normal light, one-handed and two-handed ones.

Obviously this is going nowhere. The rules say one thing and then a few feats say something else that indicates a different intent by the designers, but I'm don't pointing out the obvious and repreating myself.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Then it says that throwing a light or one-handed weapons is a standarad action while throwing a two-handed weapons is a full-round action. It's not refering to improvised weapons anymore, but to normal light, one-handed and two-handed ones.

If throwing a light weapon is a standard action, then, if reloading that weapon becomes a free action (such as with quick draw), the character should be able to take a full attack action to throw as many as he can - just like person with a light crossbow and the Rapid Reload feat can - just like a bow.

Also, where is the basis for your argument that bows only get one shot per round? Bows are not thrown.

 

[urdinaran]

Not to draw this out anymore...

If you throw a weapon that isn't designed to be throw (say, a Bardiche), wouldn't it become an improvised weapon? Same can be said about whacking someone with a Bow, I would think.

 

[Yogah of Yag]

Not to draw this out anymore...

If you throw a weapon that isn't designed to be throw (say, a Bardiche), wouldn't it become an improvised weapon? Same can be said about whacking someone with a Bow, I would think.

We'll have Mongoose publish a "Whack-with-a-bow" feat (Prereq. BAB +3, Str 13, Pimp-slap, Run Like a Sissy)

 

[urdinaran]

Regarding the Quick Draw feat, as a house rule how about limiting the number of weapons that can be drawn to the characters DEX bonus?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Regarding the Quick Draw feat, as a house rule how about limiting the number of weapons that can be drawn to the characters DEX bonus?

Why? Will you also limit the number of arrows that can be drawn per round for a bow?

 

[Tegman]

Sutek, you want us to read the rules, and you want us to think like you when you base your 'evidence' of throwing from a sentence within a paragraph and then claim that that sentence is not about what that paragraph is telling us, namely improvised weapons.

That sentence is inside the paragraph about IMPROVISED weapons, read it with an open mind and not a closed one. From what I've read here I take it you have had this discussion with your gaming friends and you firmly believe that it's supposed to work like this. But whatever proof we tell and show you, you still don't want to admit that we are right. It's impossibly to discuss when someone (namely you, Sutek) grabs bits and pieces of information and put it togather and then claims it to be the truth.

You should really read the rules, and I mean really read them. You have read them and decided upon something and seems to have a really hard time listening to others. We here have showed you proof (just take a look at all the premade NPC's and how they can make multiple bow attacks) but still you wont admit that you're wrong.

It's one thing if you had said that "Sure, it works like you guys say, but I have house ruled it and don't allow my players to attack multiply times with a bow." but you don't, you just continue without, it seems, even reading our posts (hmm, why am I even writing this?). You should learn to listen to people, they might have something new to tell you, that you didn't know about.

I apology for spelling and grammar, I usually don't write long posts (but I had to get this out of my system) and shorter ones are easier to handle since english isn't my native tounge.