Minbari vs Centari?

[Alexb83]

As you may note, I mentioned using the side arc minibeams which aren't being used otherwise (fighters in my experience rarely try and come at you head on, especially if you're Minbari) - also, correct me if I'm wrong, but 18 inch fusion cannons can shoot the enemy fighters from outside of their sensor range.

I was under the impression that if the scout or fighter which successfully makes a roll to reduce stealth was killed, then it no longer counted. Live and learn... I've always killed fighters before they got close enough in numbers that mattered.

As for fusion cannons - yes, they are nice. They are nice because of their range - but they're not really good anti-ship guns except on the war level ships (with 8 AD) or the twinlinked ships (the Tinashi is pure gold, the Ashinta is equally awesome and a bargain at half the price).
AP, non twin-linked isn't all that hot vs. Hull 6. Really, it's not. AP/Twinlinked is.
You have to appreciate though, that with at least 6AD in most arcs, Minbari have great weapons for shooting down fighters at range, before they become an issue. Dodge saves be damned.

 

[emperorpenguin]

(fighters in my experience rarely try and come at you head on, especially if you're Minbari) - also, correct me if I'm wrong, but 18 inch fusion cannons can shoot the enemy fighters from outside of their sensor range.

Personally I would stick my fighters in your forward arc, hoping you'd waste fusion cannons on them and not my capital ships, so be careful your opponent isn't doing that!
You can fire at fighters up to 18" but only negate their dodge within 4"

I was under the impression that if the scout or fighter which successfully makes a roll to reduce stealth was killed, then it no longer counted. Live and learn..

. alas no .

You have to appreciate though, that with at least 6AD in most arcs, Minbari have great weapons for shooting down fighters at range, before they become an issue. Dodge saves be damned.

only negates dodge within 4"

 

[Alexb83]

I know it does - which is why I pointed out the no. of AD you get. Dodge saves be damned - with 6AD or 6AD TL (where you can get it) the law of averages says you will most likely get at least 1 fighter per turn (assuming 2+ dodge) per firing arc, out as far as 18 inches - I don't think any other race has this capability.
With worse fighters, split your AD and you can reasonably get more.

Arcs, shmarks - just turn a bit so that some of the fighters are one side of the forward arc and the big ships are still in front.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I know it does - which is why I pointed out the no. of AD you get. Dodge saves be damned - with 6AD or 6AD TL (where you can get it) the law of averages says you will most likely get at least 1 fighter per turn (assuming 2+ dodge) per firing arc, out as far as 18 inches - I don't think any other race has this capability.
With worse fighters, split your AD and you can reasonably get more..

ah I misunderstood you, I thought by "dodge saves be damned" you thought they were negated

Yes no other race has that kind of secondary power at that range, it's usually 12" for the other races, which is why Minbari excel at fighting the long distance game

 

[Silvereye]

Lots of good stuff above and the inevitable play style clashes. Basically a Minbari fleet is designed to take down the enemy one ship at a time. As other have said, concentrate on taking one ship out of the fight (critted to uselessness or killed), before moving onto the next one. Sometimes you may apply overkill in this approach, but nonchantly exploding ships in 1 turn of shooting may make your opponent beging to wonder what you'll shoot next and be more defensive.

Here's my pick and comments.

Auxillaries. Flyers are one of the best anti-shipping fighter out there. They have Stealth 5, so make sure they get into the fight. Nials come a close second and Tishats are very poor in this role. Basically I'd run a 50-50 mix of Tishats and Nials, launch the Tishats first and use them to clear out any enemy fighters and use Nials and Flyers to harass his shipping and finish off the wounded, Nials can also be used in the anti-fighter actions.

Take an Ashinta and Leshath if you have the points, both are excellent fleet defense elements and allow the rest of your fleet to concentrate on being offensive. If you have a Morshin, it will also sort of fill this role once its fighters are launched. The Leshath also allows you to play with Scout re-rolls which is really handy if you have enemy in multiple arcs. The Ashinta is an excellent fleet support ship, it has the firepower to attack fighters at range and finish off crippled ships.

At Battle, Tinashi and Shantavi are excellent. The Shantavi needs a bit more care in its use as it has no defensive weaponry outside its front arc. If you want to play the fighter game a Morshin is essential, it is the best way of bringing fighters.

At War, if you can afford the outlay, a Sharlin is a godsend it is probably the best Warship in the game. It also has a scare-factor it can live up to, and a hanger full of more fighters.

Tigara/Teshlan. These are useful ships, Teshlan fits in with the stand off laser approach while Tigara is a fearsome knife fighter. These days Tigara needs a lot of cover or better, a Jump Point, to get safely into the fray.

If you do get access to hyperspace, Tigara and Torotha are in their element. Use the AJPs to bring them in where they will count, rather than where you can get a good jump point bomb. Use the Torotha to maintain the AJP so your large assault ship can make full use of its AJP trait and CAF! Hyperspace is also a great way of sewing confusion - which JP will you emerge from? And putting flankers in behind the enemy. I'd not fancy being taken from behind by a Shantavi....

 

[Target]

Definately take out the raid ships, thats why centauri win most games as they have the best destroyers. We probably have to many, Altarian with its beautiful Magnus, My favourite the Sulust or equally good looking Dargan, the Centurion or the OTT Prefect. Back that up with the Primus and her varients. Even the Secundas can rip Mimbari to shreds, range 15 DD, TWL. Thinking Minbari have to trust in getting enough crits to win. They Sulust isn't really a hyperion as it far to many hits to be classed like that. The Fighters should pretty much cancel each other out. Having a awesome patrol level scout is also a bonus. You can lots, not only reduce stealth on the Minbari's biggest ship, then the others try for the reroll. Allows your Sulusts and Primus to take 5+ saves. While concertrating on one ship at a time. Don't target the Corvan unless you know you can destroy it. Crippled Corvans are dangerous, i've rammed more than 1 Minbari ship in my time.

 

[Davesaint]

2) Use the first few turns firing to hit his nastiest most heavily armed ships. Prioty targets are things like Sullusts and prefects that have loads of firepower but less hull than Primuses and co..

absolutely. The Sulust is the Centauri Hyperion, tons of fire but no real staying power. Take out that first, then Centurions etc
Remove the hull 5 ships and encircle the hull 6 targets

Huh?

Sulust - Hull 5, 2 interceptors, 35/6 Damage, 38/7 Crew = No Staying Power for a raid level hull?

Hyperion - Hull 5, 2 Interceptors, 28/6 Damage, 32/6 Crew

You have been playing with Prefects for too long. The Sulust can take quite a pounding compared to many other raid level hulls.


Dave

 

[LaranosTZ]

Three Words,

'Advanced Jump Point'

Centauri ships are notoriously front loaded, if you enter the battlefield in a flanking position with a good portion of your fleet you make your opponent make some very hard decisions about where they will try to place those over-powered front guns.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Huh?

Sulust - Hull 5, 2 interceptors, 35/6 Damage, 38/7 Crew = No Staying Power for a raid level hull?

Hyperion - Hull 5, 2 Interceptors, 28/6 Damage, 32/6 Crew

You have been playing with Prefects for too long. The Sulust can take quite a pounding compared to many other raid level hulls.


Dave

I have indeed been using prefects a lot! can you blame me, they're great!

What I meant with the Hyperion comparison was that in an EA fleet you are better off targetting the Hyperions before the Omegas as with hull 5 but similar firepower you get better rewards for killing them.

Likewise the Sulust puts out nearly the volume of fire of a Primus but is easier to kill, not as easy but still.
Poor choice of words on my part

 

[DrSeltsam]

Three Words,

'Advanced Jump Point'

Centauri ships are notoriously front loaded, if you enter the battlefield in a flanking position with a good portion of your fleet you make your opponent make some very hard decisions about where they will try to place those over-powered front guns.

As mentioned before you need to have the option ( see scenario rules ) to use hyperspace reserve at all.
JPB and/or AJP trait as advantage can only be used when allowed - you can not count this as a universal option for every match.

 

[Alexb83]

No, indeed - and it's a dubious option at best. Chances are you'll be dropping 2 raid or one lone Battle level ship behind enemy lines. It'll be alone, unsupported, and will most likely be within very close range of the enemy (the only exception I guess would be ajping Tinashi/Shantavi behind the enemy within 24 inches to make good use of full armament on a flank - could easily shred a centauri battle level ship to get 4AD of precise sap and 8AD tl of AP minibeam in there).

Torothas are too weak atm to stand up to anything in their own firing range, and Tigaras may have shock value, but quickly fall apart if they fail to kill on their first strike.

Centauri are a tough nut to crack - what it comes down to is standoff tactics at mid range, and praying that you stealth holds up, and their gunnery is poor. Occasionally you may get to use AJP to your advantage for flanks, but it's splitting your fleet - which, with 4-5 ships in yours and around 8 in the Centauri (on average) is going to hurt you far more than it is them.

 

[DrSeltsam]

From my point of view the only real advantage for using it ( AJP and hyperspace reserve ) is a scenario were you already have a fleet allocation advantage ( e.g. 5 to 3 ) or a scenario were you can put almost everthing but one ship into reserve and "re-locate" your main fleet in this way.

But again this is far from a "no-brainer-tactic" that will guarantee a win ! It is a risk that will must often not be worth.

I think Torothas are only useable for Jump Point opening service for other ships in this way.

 

[Hans Olo]

Centauri are a tough nut to crack - what it comes down to is standoff tactics at mid range, and praying that you stealth holds up, and their gunnery is poor.

So do you share my opinion that at the current state of fleet lists the only way to overcome a Centaurie (using lots Prefects, or Tertius) is LUCK?!?!?!(with a itzi bitsi tiny bit of tactic responsible for your victory)

 

[Alexb83]

For Minbari? At equal PLs, given the fleet choice you have and the randomness of the mission profile?
Undoubtedly, luck will be the prevailing factor.

Your initiative will come down to luck. You will be outnumbered, outranged and outgunned. You suffer in terms of range and firepower and don't reach parity until Battle level.
Your ships are faster, but his are more manouverable and far more durable.

You will be relying on stealth, and stealth is everything or nothing. It will all be down to the luck (or lack thereof) of his dicerolls to see you, and yours to shoot him. You can improve your chances slightly with certain ship selections.

You can jp bomb (for what it's worth), but you'll be keeping ships off the table, and jumping them into mobs of hull 5 and 6 models which can usually see you on a 2+ at your strike cruisers' effective range. You can try and sit back, but the moment your stealth fails, you will be taking more damage than you can deal...

 

[katadder]

Centauri are a tough nut to crack - what it comes down to is standoff tactics at mid range, and praying that you stealth holds up, and their gunnery is poor.

So do you share my opinion that at the current state of fleet lists the only way to overcome a Centaurie (using lots Prefects, or Tertius) is LUCK?!?!?!(with a itzi bitsi tiny bit of tactic responsible for your victory)

dunno i played a 2pt battle last night with my brakiri versus centauri - 2 kalivas versus a tertius and 2 prefects. the brakiri won altho the last ship did skeleton himself exploding the prefect right in front of him.

 

[Alexb83]

Don't get me wrong - I've beaten Centauri beam fleets despite all of those things. But it wasn't down to any uber secret fancy picard manouver strategy - sure, I use terrain, sure I keep range and do all those things you should to improve your chances.
But I'm the first to admit it is solid luck - you need to rely on very fickle critical rolls that you'll be dealing, and the basic 50/50 chance that your enemy wont see you at your effective range (18 inches)

 

[Alexb83]

Centauri are a tough nut to crack - what it comes down to is standoff tactics at mid range, and praying that you stealth holds up, and their gunnery is poor.

So do you share my opinion that at the current state of fleet lists the only way to overcome a Centaurie (using lots Prefects, or Tertius) is LUCK?!?!?!(with a itzi bitsi tiny bit of tactic responsible for your victory)

dunno i played a 2pt battle last night with my brakiri versus centauri - 2 kalivas versus a tertius and 2 prefects. the brakiri won altho the last ship did skeleton himself exploding the prefect right in front of him.

*points to thread title* :wink:

 

[Hans Olo]

That's it a game where the bad luck of your opponent is the only chance to win can sure be very exciting, but as a Minbari (or any other fleet) player you just feel like being cheated.
I think the Centauri are maybe a bit too hard to crack right now. :?

 

[katadder]

well even as minbari which i played at the last tourney i dont think the centauri are all that hard. use your speed and manouvrability. think a veshetan(or tinashi), 2 teshlans (or ashintas for you alex) and 2 torothas would do ok. torothas in hyperspace of course. then you can either sit back and let him try to beat stealth 5 or watch him APTE towards you. then use this against him and APTE right back through and use your rear mini beams on him whilst he has nothing to shoot back. this of course is after a JP bomb on each of his corvans courtesy of the 2 torothas. and whilst torothas may be weak the only ship with any rear firepower worth talking about in a tertius/prefect fleet is the tertius and he doesnt survive all that well from 2 torothas and a load of Mini beams. the thing to remember with minbari is use your range where possible but also dont be afraid to use your speed and go right through, not many people have rear facing AP weapons and certainly not ones that ignore interceptors and can be twin linked in some case.

 

[Hans Olo]

well even as minbari which i played at the last tourney i dont think the centauri are all that hard. use your speed and manouvrability. think a veshetan(or tinashi), 2 teshlans (or ashintas for you alex) and 2 torothas would do ok. torothas in hyperspace of course. then you can either sit back and let him try to beat stealth 5 or watch him APTE towards you. then use this against him and APTE right back through and use your rear mini beams on him whilst he has nothing to shoot back. this of course is after a JP bomb on each of his corvans courtesy of the 2 torothas. and whilst torothas may be weak the only ship with any rear firepower worth talking about in a tertius/prefect fleet is the tertius and he doesnt survive all that well from 2 torothas and a load of Mini beams. the thing to remember with minbari is use your range where possible but also dont be afraid to use your speed and go right through, not many people have rear facing AP weapons and certainly not ones that ignore interceptors and can be twin linked in some case.

That's all true but again there is no hyperspace Torotha if its not part of the scenario, because of this it is not a valid option.