My minbari just got seriously spanked by the centari twice in a row (battle 5 & 4) and I'm not seeing how I could ever beat them. First they almost all have 6 hull and big damage weapons that all have longer ranges than mine, scouts and fighters effectively eliminate stealth leaving my paper thin fleet at the mercy of 20 dice of double damage every round. any serious suggestions? (since all the races are suppossed to be equal) because I can't see how to beat them at any level.
Minbari vs Centari?
- Thread starter Vertexx69
- Start date
It's a tough one - they certainly do have more AD and better range with their primaries at every level (except war).
It obviously depends what level you're playing at, but even at 5 raid, I'd be tempted to take a decent battle level hull like a Tinashi (or even two). You can swamp larger Centauri ships in crits with SAP beams, thanks to precise.
Also going fighter heavy (a Morshin) will help - it'll also go some ways to restore your normal initiative bonus over the Centauri.
Aside from that? Get within 18 inches but stay out of 12 - your secondary armament massively outranges his.
Use terrain to block his lines of sight, or give you handy 6+ dodge bonuses (gas clouds).
Overall? Pray his stealth rolls are below average.
It obviously depends what level you're playing at, but even at 5 raid, I'd be tempted to take a decent battle level hull like a Tinashi (or even two). You can swamp larger Centauri ships in crits with SAP beams, thanks to precise.
Also going fighter heavy (a Morshin) will help - it'll also go some ways to restore your normal initiative bonus over the Centauri.
Aside from that? Get within 18 inches but stay out of 12 - your secondary armament massively outranges his.
Use terrain to block his lines of sight, or give you handy 6+ dodge bonuses (gas clouds).
Overall? Pray his stealth rolls are below average.
Vertexx69 said:
Maybe I will receive a lot of beating right now, but that simply isn't true! In my opinion right now the Centaurie are the Most powerful Race in the Game! (don't know about the Dilgar)
I play Minbari and Narn, and as a Minbari player I have to say that Stealth right now is almost useless. Even a Sharlin now can be brought down to a Stealth score of 3+ with ease. Thats nearly noting considering that a Sharlin has Hull 5 and a Damage Score of other fleets Battle choices (OK maybe a bit more)
So I understand that people dont like the all or nothin approach on Stealth but really right now the Minbarie are almost like in the old tournament pack - to weak.
The Centaurie do posses the best ships in the Game on various priority levels
(Tertius, Prefect just to mention two) even they're weak choices are often superior compared to ships from other Fleets.
The only thing I can think of is try to use your Speed and maneuverability to get behind his Ships where they're arcs are weak, if your opponent makes some mistakes that could help.
I know this is not encouraging but it's the truth.
What level of ships are you using?
Centauri ships don't have much of a range advantage over the Minbari where they have one at all - Primus 25", Shantavi/Tinashi/Veshatan 25";
Octurian 35", Sharlin/Sharoos 30", Sharkaan 35".
from the comment of '20 dice double damage' and 'all hull 6' I'm assuming you're looking at battlecruisers backed up by armoured cruisers. It is a nasty combination and one of the default configurations for the centauri fleet (and will likely remain so for some time; you can field a fast attack craft fleet, but the beam team will generally perform better)
Suggestions:
1) If you're concerned about enemy fighters, consider fielding a Morshin class carrier. These things were good before, but now that Nials are a patrol point each they're worth their weight in something very expensive.
Unless he's fielding a Balvarin or Balvarix class he doesn't get that many fighters - just one or two wings per ship.
Put a goodly number of Nial Windstar Heavy Fighters in the air and (thanks to the highly zen combination of 4+ stealth and 2+ dodge, the only realistic way for a non-Narn player to shoot them down is to meet them in a dogfight. Nials like dogfights. Especially with a fleet carrier in support.
You're right that a combination of Scanners To Full! Fighters and Scouts can gack your stealth rather effectively. Trust your fighters to either beat or at least supress his. Furthermore, with a shedload of AP dice and the abilit to shoot before flak, they'll make pretty short work of Corvan Scouts as well....
What strike ships do you generally field?
There's generally a lot to be said for the Sharlin at any points level where you can use it, and it'll outrange a Prefect or Primus quite nicely.
The big edge you have is that you have precise lasers (and as many as he does), he doesn't.
You won't do crippling damage to hull 6 but your weapons are all precise.
Also your hulls are often faster and more agile.
If you want to field smaller ships, go for the ones with 2/45 that can get out of his magic forward arc (Tinashi class springs to mind). If niether side is in arc to fire their main guns that's normally a win for you as more manouvrable ships will get their centreline guns back on target faster....
If you try deploying a Tinashi on each side of him and pac-man them up the flanks on All Power to Engines! (wakawakawakawakawaka)
He's going to have to either split up his fleet or present his unarmed backside to one of them.
A better version of this trick (depending on the scenario) is taking a point of Torothas and something nasty as a hyperspace reserve.
Open a couple of advanced jump points behind his fleet and shove something through them on Concentrate All Fire! orders.
Something really painful like a Shantavi Heavy Frigate (4 triple damage precise lasers) will get probably 2 maybe 3 rounds of rerolled fire before you have to manouvre....
Centauri ships don't have much of a range advantage over the Minbari where they have one at all - Primus 25", Shantavi/Tinashi/Veshatan 25";
Octurian 35", Sharlin/Sharoos 30", Sharkaan 35".
from the comment of '20 dice double damage' and 'all hull 6' I'm assuming you're looking at battlecruisers backed up by armoured cruisers. It is a nasty combination and one of the default configurations for the centauri fleet (and will likely remain so for some time; you can field a fast attack craft fleet, but the beam team will generally perform better)
Suggestions:
1) If you're concerned about enemy fighters, consider fielding a Morshin class carrier. These things were good before, but now that Nials are a patrol point each they're worth their weight in something very expensive.
Unless he's fielding a Balvarin or Balvarix class he doesn't get that many fighters - just one or two wings per ship.
Put a goodly number of Nial Windstar Heavy Fighters in the air and (thanks to the highly zen combination of 4+ stealth and 2+ dodge, the only realistic way for a non-Narn player to shoot them down is to meet them in a dogfight. Nials like dogfights. Especially with a fleet carrier in support.
You're right that a combination of Scanners To Full! Fighters and Scouts can gack your stealth rather effectively. Trust your fighters to either beat or at least supress his. Furthermore, with a shedload of AP dice and the abilit to shoot before flak, they'll make pretty short work of Corvan Scouts as well....
What strike ships do you generally field?
There's generally a lot to be said for the Sharlin at any points level where you can use it, and it'll outrange a Prefect or Primus quite nicely.
The big edge you have is that you have precise lasers (and as many as he does), he doesn't.
You won't do crippling damage to hull 6 but your weapons are all precise.
Also your hulls are often faster and more agile.
If you want to field smaller ships, go for the ones with 2/45 that can get out of his magic forward arc (Tinashi class springs to mind). If niether side is in arc to fire their main guns that's normally a win for you as more manouvrable ships will get their centreline guns back on target faster....
If you try deploying a Tinashi on each side of him and pac-man them up the flanks on All Power to Engines! (wakawakawakawakawaka)
He's going to have to either split up his fleet or present his unarmed backside to one of them.
A better version of this trick (depending on the scenario) is taking a point of Torothas and something nasty as a hyperspace reserve.
Open a couple of advanced jump points behind his fleet and shove something through them on Concentrate All Fire! orders.
Something really painful like a Shantavi Heavy Frigate (4 triple damage precise lasers) will get probably 2 maybe 3 rounds of rerolled fire before you have to manouvre....
Playing against Minbari (or with them) all comes down to luck. You either get lucky and the opponent can only see you half the time - in which case you can hope to dish out and take damage at a reasonable level of parity - or you are seen and die. Easily.
The other alternative is that the enemy rolls 1s and 2s all the time, and it's not that enjoyable an experience for them, watching precise beams carve their ships apart.
Now, Locarno gives a good overall brief, but in terms of being outgunned and outranged, I think he has it wrong... at raid level, Centauri outrange you by 5 inches (Prefect vs. Teshlan) and have an extra AD to throw into the mix - add that to the fact that the Teshlan is the only beam-toting choice you have below battle, so for the rest of the sub-battle ships, he outranges you by 7 inches. Not only that, but your ships being so fast means that you'll struggle to keep range whilst keeping front arc weapons to bear.
And pray he doesn't take a balvarix - beating Centauri for intiative (something you need to do) is hard enough, let alone when he's got +5 to his roll. Your best bet: take the ships and variants with twin-linked secondaries. That's Ashintas and Tinashis... and fighters. Morshins are a good bet.
The other alternative is that the enemy rolls 1s and 2s all the time, and it's not that enjoyable an experience for them, watching precise beams carve their ships apart.
Now, Locarno gives a good overall brief, but in terms of being outgunned and outranged, I think he has it wrong... at raid level, Centauri outrange you by 5 inches (Prefect vs. Teshlan) and have an extra AD to throw into the mix - add that to the fact that the Teshlan is the only beam-toting choice you have below battle, so for the rest of the sub-battle ships, he outranges you by 7 inches. Not only that, but your ships being so fast means that you'll struggle to keep range whilst keeping front arc weapons to bear.
And pray he doesn't take a balvarix - beating Centauri for intiative (something you need to do) is hard enough, let alone when he's got +5 to his roll. Your best bet: take the ships and variants with twin-linked secondaries. That's Ashintas and Tinashis... and fighters. Morshins are a good bet.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Vertexx69 said:
What ships is he taking? My guess is Primus/Tertius backed up by Prefects?
As already said unless he takes a Balvarix or Balvarin then you can match or even outnumber him in fighters. Take a Morshin, use Tishats rather than Nials for the superior dogfight especially if he is using Raziks.
Don't use your fighters to attack his ships, it may be tempting as the Centauri tend to have unguarded rear arcs and a lack of anti-fighter weapons, but you are better off keeping your fighters to pounce on his when he tries scanners to full.
As for his scouts, if he is sensible he is using Corvans. Keep a Tigara in hyperspace and open a jump point just behind the Corvan, if that doesn't kill it then the Tigara will when it comes out!
Stay at range! Your 18" fusion cannons have a 6" advantage over his matter cannons. Get out of his forward arcs if you can. Force his fleet to break, if they stay in formation he will be harder to beat, but those big nasty Centauri ships don't turn as well as your Tinashis etc....
Well this will of course only help if you play a scenario which allows you to do so.
But well your only chance is to get rid of the Scouts fast.
But doing this leaves is big hitters longer untouched so you see it's not that easy.
Your fighters should definitely should take care of the ones of your opponent first, if you manage to clear the sky attack what is left.
If the Morshin uses up a lot of your available FAP I would rather leave it at home.
Try to get in his rear as fast and and as unharmed as possible (remember his nasty secondaries) and use your superior maneuverability.
If your opponent is a cunning one and had his fleet positioned smart it might at least half the shots coming your way. If he's not, he's in some serious trouble now. Tigara and Theslan are of good use here, at higher Levels a Tinashi as well.
If you are playing at War take a Sharlin and use CAV and FS as often as possible to hold the range, the Sharlin secondaries are not good enough to voluntary start a close fight.
Well listening to all the replies given her you might have a chance but I wouldn't place a bet.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Hans Olo said:
Very true, but if you ARE allowed then do it! At Gaelcon Burger could have placed his Tigaras in hyperspace and torn me to shreds but instead he came at my Primus/Sulust/Centurion head on with messy results
I would in all honesty ignore the scouts! You will need to beat their stealth and they will be at the back. Take out his big ships first. Pick a nasty target whether it be the Primus or Prefect etc and fire everything at using CAF! With your precise weapons you will get more crits and no bulkheads.
Taking out one of those ships will destroy your opponent's confidence and eliminate a lot of the return fire
I have to say, I wouldn't take Tishats due to the loss of shooting AD. Nials more than do the job, and are excellent for Corvan hunting.
Don't send Nials against hull 6 Centauri unless they're en masse - Nials suffer the same weakness as the majority of the Minbo fleet: their gun is only AP. and not twin linked. It's also interceptable, so you'll be throwing dice away with absolutely no benefit (since your ships guns' ignore them completely!).
There's lots of talk of keeping out of arcs vs. Centauri - honestly, you'll struggle. Their arcs are as wide as yours, their ships are slower and so more manouverable despite having less turns. And if you're trying to skim past him at an oblique angle you'll be failing to bring your main guns to bear, and relying on fusion cannons (not good except with Ashintas, Sharlins and Tinashis due to the weight of dice and the TL attribute on the Tinashi hulls).
Hide in gas clouds wherever you can - flank him with your smaller ships whilst you concentrate your beam fire on a ship at a time (you can hapilly split fire over groups of smaller ships, though). Don't waste main beam fire on Corvans... you've as little chance of passing stealth as he has against you.
Don't send Nials against hull 6 Centauri unless they're en masse - Nials suffer the same weakness as the majority of the Minbo fleet: their gun is only AP. and not twin linked. It's also interceptable, so you'll be throwing dice away with absolutely no benefit (since your ships guns' ignore them completely!).
There's lots of talk of keeping out of arcs vs. Centauri - honestly, you'll struggle. Their arcs are as wide as yours, their ships are slower and so more manouverable despite having less turns. And if you're trying to skim past him at an oblique angle you'll be failing to bring your main guns to bear, and relying on fusion cannons (not good except with Ashintas, Sharlins and Tinashis due to the weight of dice and the TL attribute on the Tinashi hulls).
Hide in gas clouds wherever you can - flank him with your smaller ships whilst you concentrate your beam fire on a ship at a time (you can hapilly split fire over groups of smaller ships, though). Don't waste main beam fire on Corvans... you've as little chance of passing stealth as he has against you.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Alexb83 said:
Not if he takes Raziks they're not.....
I know I am a Centauri player! The edge the Tishat gives you is worth the loss of AD. The Minbari ships will do the killing not the fighters
It's very good advice, the one thing I DON'T want to see as a Centauri player is my opponent flying into my side arcs. We only tend to have twin arrays there. Any ship with 2/45 turns will otmanoeuvre a Primus or Prefect like that. I had a hell of a time at Gaelcon coping with the Drakh light cruisers doing just that to me!
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Here is some alternate advice I might suggest:
1) DONT kill the scouts first. This may sound odd but when all's said and done scouts dont knock stealth down THAT easily and you have a pretty good chance of failing YOUR stealth rolls and wasting your fire on them.
2) Use the first few turns firing to hit his nastiest most heavily armed ships. Prioty targets are things like Sullusts and prefects that have loads of firepower but less hull than Primuses and co.
3) shoot to cripple not to kill at first. In terms of raw firepower the centauri WILL outgun you but if you take dont waste neutron lasers shots on a ship you are unlikely to kill if youve already got a nice no weapons crit or something. Aim to reduce his fighting capabilities as fast as possible.
4) Get to 18" range and stay there. He may outrange your main weapons but Minbari ships nearly always outrange everyone elses secondaries and that makes a BIG difference
5) Nials ftw. Take a Morshin or a Sharlin (or both if you can!) Nials are not worth buying by wings but are still just about the best fighter in the game (WS fighters dont count as they are silly....) A morshin will also increase your initiative bonus EVEN MORE
Take out his fighters as quickly as possible. Then use your fighters to harass damaged ships. Dont bother trying to gank a priums or something it wont work very well but 4 or 5 Nials can really make a mess of a Sullust given a chance. And god help any Vorchan that gets in their way.... Against Centauri I might even swap the Nials for Tishats, you want them to kill his fighters more than anything else and Tishats are quite simply sick and wrong in dogfights 
6) Use hyperspace if you can. If you get the chance, jump in behind him. Dont worry about trying to jump point bomb just keep as many of your big nasty ships out of his forward arc of HIS big ships as you can.
7) Use terrain. A simple point but so many people just ignore the terrain rules and play on empty battlefields that its silly. Terrain can have a HUGE impact on a game and can really even the odds for some of the more manueverable fleets (of which Minbari ARE one)
8) Lastly and most importantly: Stealth is unreliable. It always was, now its just unrliable with the balance tipped slightly in the other sides favour. The answer? Dont rely on it, use your other advantages in maneuver, fighter abilities and superior weapons tech to dominate. The minute you leave your opponent a shot you could avoid because 'he can only hit me on a 6+ at this range' is the moment you lose the game.
1) DONT kill the scouts first. This may sound odd but when all's said and done scouts dont knock stealth down THAT easily and you have a pretty good chance of failing YOUR stealth rolls and wasting your fire on them.
2) Use the first few turns firing to hit his nastiest most heavily armed ships. Prioty targets are things like Sullusts and prefects that have loads of firepower but less hull than Primuses and co.
3) shoot to cripple not to kill at first. In terms of raw firepower the centauri WILL outgun you but if you take dont waste neutron lasers shots on a ship you are unlikely to kill if youve already got a nice no weapons crit or something. Aim to reduce his fighting capabilities as fast as possible.
4) Get to 18" range and stay there. He may outrange your main weapons but Minbari ships nearly always outrange everyone elses secondaries and that makes a BIG difference
5) Nials ftw. Take a Morshin or a Sharlin (or both if you can!) Nials are not worth buying by wings but are still just about the best fighter in the game (WS fighters dont count as they are silly....) A morshin will also increase your initiative bonus EVEN MORE
Take out his fighters as quickly as possible. Then use your fighters to harass damaged ships. Dont bother trying to gank a priums or something it wont work very well but 4 or 5 Nials can really make a mess of a Sullust given a chance. And god help any Vorchan that gets in their way.... Against Centauri I might even swap the Nials for Tishats, you want them to kill his fighters more than anything else and Tishats are quite simply sick and wrong in dogfights 6) Use hyperspace if you can. If you get the chance, jump in behind him. Dont worry about trying to jump point bomb just keep as many of your big nasty ships out of his forward arc of HIS big ships as you can.
7) Use terrain. A simple point but so many people just ignore the terrain rules and play on empty battlefields that its silly. Terrain can have a HUGE impact on a game and can really even the odds for some of the more manueverable fleets (of which Minbari ARE one)
8) Lastly and most importantly: Stealth is unreliable. It always was, now its just unrliable with the balance tipped slightly in the other sides favour. The answer? Dont rely on it, use your other advantages in maneuver, fighter abilities and superior weapons tech to dominate. The minute you leave your opponent a shot you could avoid because 'he can only hit me on a 6+ at this range' is the moment you lose the game.
I take the point on Nials vs Raziks, Emperor - but if you've got a Morshin on the table anyways, I think that the Nials are more vesatile.
With Tishats, you'll wipe them out quickly - and then find yourself with fighters milling around the table with little to do
Perhaps a half and half mix would be better - in a Morshin centred fleet you'll generally have at least 10-11 fighters on the board (the odd flyer here and there).
With Tishats, you'll wipe them out quickly - and then find yourself with fighters milling around the table with little to do
Perhaps a half and half mix would be better - in a Morshin centred fleet you'll generally have at least 10-11 fighters on the board (the odd flyer here and there).
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Alexb83 said:With Tishats, you'll wipe them out quickly - and then find yourself with fighters milling around the table with little to do
True but I think his priority should be to eliminate the fighters in order to prevent scanners to full. However if his opponent isn't taking a carrier then he'll only have a few fighters so in that case use Nials also and hit those rear arcs on the Vorchans/Sulusts/Prefects etc
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Its true that Nials are more versatile than Tishats but when dealing with centauri fighters its best to err on the side of caution. Tishats are still not terrible at attacking ships anyway! And as mentioned yes the best use for your fighters of all once youve dealt with his is to kill his scouts
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Locutus9956 said:
absolutely. The Sulust is the Centauri Hyperion, tons of fire but no real staying power. Take out that first, then Centurions etc
Remove the hull 5 ships and encircle the hull 6 targets
Valid point - although in my experience, concentrated fire from fusion cannons is enough to wipe out most fighters (even outside minibeam range).
Especially if they come at you from the sides, where you've got good coverage of AD you wouldn't be using otherwise.
If they do take a carrier (Balvarix) you're in deep trouble anyways, since they'll have +5 initiative to match your +5 (with Morshin), and they'll have scout rerolls at the start, too. +2 command is something the Centauri really could do without having been given.
Especially if they come at you from the sides, where you've got good coverage of AD you wouldn't be using otherwise.
If they do take a carrier (Balvarix) you're in deep trouble anyways, since they'll have +5 initiative to match your +5 (with Morshin), and they'll have scout rerolls at the start, too. +2 command is something the Centauri really could do without having been given.
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Alexb83 said:
I would WANT you to fire your fusion cannons at my fighters! Means they are not hitting my ships! :twisted: Don''t take the bait, that's your fighters job.
If they do take a Balvarix then the bright side is that's one less Tertius/Primus or two less prefects/sulusts!
Locutus9956
Mongoose
there are those who would argue that +1 Command is something the Minbari really should not have been given. The wheel turns.....
Seriously though the Centauri are a very strong fleet but so are the Minbari and BOTH can be beaten if you play it right. Theres alot of good advice in this thread already and also a veritable gold mine all over the forum but in the end the best way to learn is to play more. If you get your ass handed to you take note of HOW it was done and make every effort to avoid letting your opponent get into that position again (if it was done by some really lucky dice and crits though just chalk it up to bad luck and try again
)
Seriously though the Centauri are a very strong fleet but so are the Minbari and BOTH can be beaten if you play it right. Theres alot of good advice in this thread already and also a veritable gold mine all over the forum but in the end the best way to learn is to play more. If you get your ass handed to you take note of HOW it was done and make every effort to avoid letting your opponent get into that position again (if it was done by some really lucky dice and crits though just chalk it up to bad luck and try again
)Locutus9956
Mongoose
emperorpenguin said:I would WANT you to fire your fusion cannons at my fighters! Means they are not hitting my ships! :twisted: Don''t take the bait, that's your fighters job.
If they do take a Balvarix then the bright side is that's one less Tertius/Primus or two less prefects/sulusts!
Abso-fraggin-lutely
If he takes a Balvarin just laugh maniacally, ingnore it and blast the rest of his fleet, he may have a few more fighters but hes just tradeds something like 6-8 dice of Battle lasers for it, and if youve got a Morshin full of Tishats, you'll STILL rip his fighters to shreds
Also, most importantly using Minibeams to shoot down fighters:
a) doesnt stop them doing scanners to full first. Its all well and good to blow his Sentris out of the sky but if he's already dropped your stealth a point and then blasted your sharlin with 15 battle lasers its a bit late isnt it
b) Fusion beams are one of the best antiship secondary weapons in the game. Theyre AP AND they IGNORE interceptors (which several of the larger centauri ships DO have).
Kill fighters with better fighters. Point defece systems should always be considered a last resort to fend of fighters on any capital ship in any game and using anti ship capable weaponry on fighters should only EVER be attepted if said weapons have no other targets.
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