Medic!

[hdan]

You screw up, an artery ruptures, a nerve gets pinched, or you accidentally break ribs due to overzealous CPR. You might accidentally infect the patient - or even yourself. If you screw up while trying to stabilise a wound or injury, yes you can end up killing the patient.

True for serious wounds, but minor wounds? You propose that a trained but inexperienced medic (skill level 0) who is treating a cut or sprain would, on average, make things worse?

Actually, if the End mod comes into play, even a Medic-2 would on average make things worse if End were zeroed. You would need a Medic-4 to have a decent chance of actually helping.

I think that taking damage from first aid should be reserved for exceptional failure.

 

[alex_greene]

I think that taking damage from first aid should be reserved for exceptional failure.

Player thinking. I like to think as a Referee, and have the players feel very scared to put their lives in the hands of the ship's barely-trained "We don't need a fully trained one, because we've got an autodoc and besides, we're going to save thousands" Medic-0.

 

[BFalcon]

Alex: I fully agree

I might let a -1 or -2 slip (you just really hurt him) but that's if I was in a good mood.

Mind you, you could apply the same thinking to the ship's Astrogator and have the navigation computer have problems...

 

[asciitraveller]

One could constrain the maximum damage by bad first aid to the damage of the original treated wound.

 

[apoc527]

I agree with the poster who said that the negative of failing is not making things better fast enough. That's why I created some new damage house rules--to make it important to get attention FAST after you just took a buttload of damage from that critter looking a bit too much like a T-Rex.

 

[hdan]

I got a chance to check TMB - First Aid negative effect does not cause damage, but Surgery negative effect does.

 

[Morningkiller]

I'd agree that the exceptional failure rule should be used to model this rather than applying a negative effect.

If you allow the negative effect then by extension everyone should tank up before a battle by botching an explosives roll while setting a kilo of plastique. Normally this does 4d6 x effect in damage. if you fail by four or more it may go off doing -4x4d6 damage.

Hence you gain up to 96 extra hit points.

Nice

 

[alex_greene]

Spurious reasoning. Specious argument.

If you simply fail on an Explosives roll (-1 to -5 Effect), perhaps the bomb just fails to go off and just sits there, inert and incriminating. If you botch on an Explosives roll (-6 effect), the bomb goes up in the bomber's face. Real world example from this year: January 1 2011. a bomb being assembled by a terrorist actually blew up in the hotel room where it was being assembled because the mobile phone the terrorist was using triggered prematurely: the phone company sent that model of phone a spam message.

It read "Happy New Year!"

If you have any kind of negative Effect on a Medic roll, you can worsen the patient's condition on a sliding scale of physical damage, even from as little as a -1 Effect, and theoretically he could take weeks to die as a curable condition rapidly becomes untreatable and ultimately terminal thanks to all the incompetent fumbling about. Real world case: US President James Garfield. Shot by an assassin's bullet, it was not the shooting that killed him, but rather blood poisoning, setting in long after the shooting.

The Referee has to judge, but it really makes no sense at all to assume that the rule for first aid would apply to, say, a combat roll with a sword or a gun, or a poisoning attempt, and that a negative Effect means the victims suddenly find their characteristic points increasing.

A -1 to -5 Effect on a combat roll means that the weapon misses and does no damage, or that the would-be victim of poisoning never gets to eat or drink the doctored food (the dog eats it, a waiter jostles the glass out of the victim's hand).

A -6 Effect on a combat roll means that it ends up backfiring or jamming, or the kick of the gun breaks the character's wrist or injures his shoulder, or that the target of the poisoning attempt catches the stench of the poison over the aroma, and immediately points the finger at the player character.

 

[atpollard]

Spurious reasoning. Specious argument.

Really?
I just read it as irony with an underlying argument that 'negative effect' places a penalty on the MEDIC skill that is not placed on other skills, and 'exceptional failure' would be a more appropriate game mechanic to employ.

[Off-Topic: I found the 'healing bomb' comment quite funny.]

 

[BFalcon]

Well, to broaden the topic, it is already on the charts for other skills - you pass or fail narrowly the GM gets to put a condition on achieving the objective, while a serious failure is serious... why should a Medic roll be any different?

I agree that a minor failure shouldn't cause damage or any excessive complications (maybe cause a second attempt or cause the victim further damage that will need to be healed later, without causing actual damage (in terms of games characteristics)). A serious failure should cause further damage (albeit at a low level, getting worse as the failure level increases) since by that time they're showing incompetance instead of mere lack of skill or knowledge.

In any case, a Medic roll should be cascaded onto the healing process or any surgery rolls later on, depending on delays... or any further Medic rolls... this should prevent parties from allowing unskilled medics from working on people unless it's an emergency... since they'll be likely to kill their patients (victims) if they make enough attempts...

After all, if an engineering roll screws up, the system is damaged beyond repair, isn't it? Why should a Medic be any different?

 

[hdan]

The rulebook actually says that Surgery (unlike First Aid) applies negative effect as damage. So Surgery can hurt people, First Aid can't.

Now if we're discussing if it should work some other way, that's in the fine tradition of Traveller players , but the rules are pretty clear (for MgT rules at any rate).

 

[DFW]

The rulebook actually says that Surgery (unlike First Aid) applies negative effect as damage. So Surgery can hurt people, First Aid can't.

Yes, I reread the rule. It does not apply to First Aid med checks.

 

[GypsyComet]

The rulebook actually says that Surgery (unlike First Aid) applies negative effect as damage. So Surgery can hurt people, First Aid can't.

Now if we're discussing if it should work some other way, that's in the fine tradition of Traveller players , but the rules are pretty clear (for MgT rules at any rate).

First Aid can't hurt people? Have the authors ever taken a CPR course?

 

[barnest2]

This ^
My wife did one recently, and was told that that loud cracking sound when performing CPR is completely normal, and is the patients ribs breaking.

Something tells me broken ribs will hurt. A lot.

 

[alex_greene]

Something tells me broken ribs will hurt. A lot.

Only when you laugh. Breathe. Get up. Sit down. Belch. Cough. Sneeze. Run. Exert yourself ...

 

[rust]

Something tells me broken ribs will hurt. A lot.

No problem, you will certainly find a paramedic who removes all the pain
with a little morphine. Since this is no surgery and therefore can do no
harm, he can give you no overdose.

 

[far-trader]

Something tells me broken ribs will hurt. A lot.

No problem, you will certainly find a paramedic who removes all the pain
with a little morphine. Since this is no surgery and therefore can do no
harm, he can give you no overdose.

And you won't happen to be allergic to morphine either.

 

[hdan]

I'll take "I cut myself for 3 pts of damage and my medic can bandage me up, maybe restoring some points "I cut myself for 3 pts of damage, but don't dare let anyone with less than Medic-3 touch me, because on average they'll make things worse".

I know in common parlance CPR is considered "First Aid", but it's a whole different level of First Aid than binding a wound. I submit that administering First Aid to a Seriously Wounded or recently killed person requires more advanced techniques, and should be handled like Surgery (that is, you can do as much harm as good).

(I also like the idea of allowing First Aid in the "magic window" for recently killed people, at least for ones that didn't die in a way that would prevent their bodies from functioning. If you can score a positive effect before the window closes, you have saved their lives and stabilized them; now it's off to surgery and recovery. As far as broken ribs, as a GM I might explain the "Seriously Wounded" effects as broken ribs in addition to )

 

[rust]

The treatment of a truly minor wound would be a simple task with a mo-
difier of +6, so under normal circumstances I would see no reason at all
to demand a skill roll for this, since the success chance of a character
with medic-0 is 100 % anyway.

For a routine task the modifier would be +2, which would under normal
conditions still give a success chance of 72 % for a character with only
medic-0, and he can improve this success chance by taking some time
to think and act carefully.

I think we can agree that someone without any medical skill should not
try any task which is more difficult than a routine task.

 

[DFW]

The treatment of a truly minor wound would be a simple task with a mo-
difier of +6, so under normal circumstances I would see no reason at all
to demand a skill roll for this, since the success chance of a character
with medic-0 is 100 % anyway.

For untrained (-3) it converts to a +3. 5 or better on 2D6...