Medic!

[Kashirigi]

I have a basic question. In the rules it says:

Applying first aid restores a number of characteristic points equal to twice the Effect of the Medic check.

If the Medic check is unsuccessful (ie, the effect is -2), does that mean 4 characteristic points are lost (-4 points are restored)?

While this may not be the intent of the check, I kind of like it as it means well-meaning bystanders who are trying to help are really not, and gives potentially serious consequences for failure.

 

[alex_greene]

Yes, it can be as brutal as that.

 

[DFW]

If the Medic check is unsuccessful (ie, the effect is -2), does that mean 4 characteristic points are lost (-4 points are restored)?

You can do that as the GM but, the rules don't state that.

 

[rust]

While this may not be the intent of the check, I kind of like it as it means well-meaning bystanders who are trying to help are really not, and gives potentially serious consequences for failure.

You can handle it that way, but it would have a tendency to punish those
characters who want to help other characters, and to keep the game sys-
tem consistent you should also apply this to other activities, for example
the repair of starship damage.

 

[BFalcon]

Oh boy... I'm getting flashbacks to one of my former players who used to insist on having a chance to achieve anything - regardless of how ill-trained (or not trained at all) his character was... he would have ended up killing the entire party with that rule... probably due to him trying to "improve" the jump drive...

 

[DFW]

Oh boy... I'm getting flashbacks to one of my former players who used to insist on having a chance to achieve anything - regardless of how ill-trained (or not trained at all) his character was... he would have ended up killing the entire party with that rule... probably due to him trying to "improve" the jump drive...

Well, there is no saving throw vs. stupidity...

 

[BFalcon]

Sadly not, DFW, but he insisted on doing so when he knew that it would probably end up disrupting the group in some way... usually by disabling a party vehicle or resource if he screwed up...

I used to just wish that at least one of the other players would stop him, but they never did... he usually got his way by threatening to shoot the other player if he interfered.

 

[Kashirigi]

You can do that as the GM but, the rules don't state that.

Actually, I think it does. A literal reading of the rule (which was posted verbatim) means, in my example, that the number of points restored is -2x2, which = -4. It doesn't mention success anywhere in the condition. I suppose it's possible that "restore" is a unidirectional thing, though.

As for applying it to other things, that also makes sense. Don't forget you can increase your chances by taking more time.

I agree it isn't exactly forgiving, but it's certainly realistic.

Imagine you're hurrying to fix your computer. You fail your roll. That means in the process of installing your hard drive you've dropped a screw deep in the innards and broken a molex connector.

You can make the rule more forgiving by assuming it only happens when you're hurrying things along. So if there's no time pressure, you can't make things worse.

 

[far-trader]

...he usually got his way by threatening to shoot the other player if he interfered.

He never got around to "fixing" his own weapon?

:twisted:

Ref "OK, Bob is not letting you near the jump drive again after the last time you tried to tune it up."

"I pull my custom modified laser pistol and shoot Bob in the leg and go ahead and start disassembling the zuchaii crystal matrix."

Ref (rolls dice) "Right, you pull the trigger and the overcharge for extra damage from your laser pistol starts building."

"Cool."

Ref "It is still building and the hum is getting very loud and high. Bob has run out and closed the hatch behind him."

"It hasn't fired yet?"

Ref "No."

"Ummm.... "

Ref "Same noise your laser pistol is making, only much louder and higher, you're bleeding from your right ear so it's not so loud to you anymore... and it explodes in your hand. Taking your arm with it and burning half your body. Nice modification. Oh, and you pass out."

Ref "Is anyone coming to his aid?"

Medic "I would but the modified stretcher won't release from the new quick release he installed."

Engineer "I can't get the modified hatch to recognize my code to get back in."

Pilot "What? I can't hear or see anything, the modified security cameras and ship intercom are dead."

:twisted:

 

[BFalcon]

Yes, in Traveller I could have so much more fun...

That was in Cyberpunk (still managed to get him a few times though - I just had to be more careful not to sabotage the group in doing so).

 

[DFW]

Actually, I think it does. A literal reading of the rule (which was posted verbatim) means, in my example, that the number of points restored is -2x2, which = -4. It doesn't mention success anywhere in the condition. I suppose it's possible that "restore" is a unidirectional thing, though.

Not really. The writer was using the English definition of "restored". Not considering negative numbers.

 

[locarno24]

Actually, I think it does. A literal reading of the rule (which was posted verbatim) means, in my example, that the number of points restored is -2x2, which = -4. It doesn't mention success anywhere in the condition. I suppose it's possible that "restore" is a unidirectional thing, though.

As for applying it to other things, that also makes sense. Don't forget you can increase your chances by taking more time.

I agree it isn't exactly forgiving, but it's certainly realistic.

I always go with a quick sanity check;

Can horribly inept "first aid" make things worse?
Yes?
Then negative effect applies.

Either get some first aid training or leave it to the autodoc.

 

[CosmicGamer]

IMO, the 2x Effect is for successful accepts at first aid. I also think that successful first aid with no effect (exact roll, +0) should do something, so would give +1 to a characteristic but as stated on page 50 "may have to accept a condition on his success".

Regarding failure, I would not apply a 2x -effect. Failing to apply first aid could be as simple as not being able to diagnose what the problem is. Page 50 still allows for the GM to come up with penalties for Exceptional failures.

 

[ShadowDrake]

Actually, I think it does. A literal reading of the rule (which was posted verbatim) means, in my example, that the number of points restored is -2x2, which = -4. It doesn't mention success anywhere in the condition. I suppose it's possible that "restore" is a unidirectional thing, though.

As for applying it to other things, that also makes sense. Don't forget you can increase your chances by taking more time.

I agree it isn't exactly forgiving, but it's certainly realistic.

I always go with a quick sanity check;

Can horribly inept "first aid" make things worse?
Yes?
Then negative effect applies.

Either get some first aid training or leave it to the autodoc.

As a firefighter/EMT, I can say that basic first aid is extremely difficult to truly mess up, even if your first aid knowledge consists of watching the show Emergency. I would only allow further injury with an exceptional failure, which would involve something mind bogglingly stupid, like digging around in someone's abdomen in order to find a bullet, dragging someone with a broken back around, or giving bone crushing CPR to someone not in cardiac arrest. For truly life threatening multi-systems trauma, failing to make it better quickly will have practically the same effect as making it worse.
Surgery, on the other hand? While having never aided major surgery on anything bigger then a dog, I would say the "oh s--t" potential is much higher. I would allow you to kill your patient with horrifically bad surgery.

 

[bonni56]

There are no guarantees going to the doctor but I think the negative 2x effect rule would be too harsh except in the extreme situations like an untrained person trying to perform surgery.

If the player is just trying to stop the bleeding (not doing a tourniquet, etc.) then I wouldn't apply the negative. It would be more neutral. He might not be able to stop the bleeding but he could have, perhaps, slowed it down. It the roll was the worst possible roll he could have done then you can always apply a negative if you wish until they get to a regular doctor, etc. Complications do arise and the doctor might have modifiers to his roll because of the bungling of the untrained.

 

[BFalcon]

or you could assign the negative DM to the healing process as a whole - the individual has infected the wound or complicated an injury somehow...?

 

[hdan]

I don't like the negative effect means more damage for the simple reason that it implies that someone trained in first aid techniques (but without a lot of practice) will more often than not make matters worse.

That seems wrong to me. An exceptional failure might make things worse, but not a standard failure.

 

[asciitraveller]

If a player tries to shoot someone and misses,
should i interpret the negative effect as healing?

 

[alex_greene]

Combat dice rolls involve an all-or-nothing result: you hit and roll the damage dice and Effect, subtracting armour and whatever, or you miss and the bullet goes somewhere else.

First aid doesn't have the same mechanic.You screw up, an artery ruptures, a nerve gets pinched, or you accidentally break ribs due to overzealous CPR. You might accidentally infect the patient - or even yourself. If you screw up while trying to stabilise a wound or injury, yes you can end up killing the patient.

 

[rust]

If you screw up while trying to stabilise a wound or injury, yes you can end up killing the patient.

Yes, indeed. I just remembered a case where a first responder treated an
unconscious person with a serious head injury by bringing him in a posi-
tion with legs high and head low, which would have made some sense in
the case of a hypovolaemic shock, but was a very bad idea in this case.