Manouvering stat

[katadder]

had an idea and want to see what people think of it:
basically one additional stat that says how far a ship must move before turning or between turns as going half speed doesnt seem right for some ship. a whitestar has to go 7 and half inchs before a turn, a ka'bin'tak has to go 2 inches, and as you engines get damaged you get to turn even quicker.
some ships like would have higher turn ratings to show they are slow and ponderous (as well as low turns) and others would be able to turn far quicker like whitestars, teshlans and vorchans and other more manouvrable vessels. its all about the acceleration, decelration of vessels.
a vorchan is actually very unmanouvreable at that speed with only 2 45 degree turns. another example is the rorhic, that ship can turn 270 degrees in the same amount of space as a whitestar, yes is slower but it seems more manouvrable.
maybe it would make it more complicated but not by much at all really. but its here to see your ideas.

 

[Target]

Im presuming the stat would like 15(5) meaning after 5 inches the whitestar could turn while a Primus might 8(6) can only turn after 6 inches. Maybe if you can't reach your turning distance you can't turn.That could make engine hits a bit nastier.

 

[Chernobyl]

well, you'd need some type of exception, where you could always make your first turn atthe end of your move if your speed is below the minimum for turn #1.

Chern

 

[Target]

Why?
Im thinking engines and thrusters are linked. Not enough power to make the turn or you could have a CQ check.
When a Primus or similar ship gets hit with a -4 speed crit is quite often is a blessing, just keeps the enemy in your fwd arc longer.

 

[E Nicely]

This is a good idea.

 

[Chernobyl]

in a sea game maybe, but you don't need to have thrust to change your facing in space. your main engines only move you foreward, maneuvering thrusters (or the equivalent) change your facing. The current "1/2" speed rule attempts to model the inertia of ships but it Never eliminates the ships ability to turn. even when a ship is beat to heck and crippled, it gets 1/45 turn. your proposal could/would eliminate that if the speed drops too low.

Chern

 

[vitalis6969]

I understand the inertia thing, but the biggest problem comes from the fact that by the rules you are always forced to drive your ship at nearly the fastest speed possible that it can travel. A ship with one turn must travel 1/2 of its move before turning, it does not have to turn after that if I am not mistaken. A ship with two turns must move half its movement to make the first turn, then an additional two inches before making the second afterwhich it does not have to move any further if it does not want to. Regardless, a ship must move at least half its movement every round if I am reading this correctly, book not at hand right now.

Thus making faster ships actually less maneuverable than slower ships because they have to cover a greater distance in order to turn around.

The only other way out of it would be to adopt rules like the old Star Frontiers space battles game or the horribly hard to track Battletech space combat where inertia was always a factor and just a complete pain in the butt to play.

I suppose something could be done along the lines of a general minimum move like 2" that any and all ships have to make before using their turns unless they are suffering from engine speed hits that would lower them below two inches of movement.

Under this a whitestar could turn twice within four inches of movement as opposed to 9.5 inches of movement. That would be diabolical in the least.

But would also throw all simulation of inertia right out the window, i.e. Whitestar moves 15 inches in turn one in a straight line, turn two moves two inches, turns, moves two inches, turns. Ends movement. The G-forces involved would be unreal.

 

[Target]

in a sea game maybe, but you don't need to have thrust to change your facing in space. your main engines only move you foreward, maneuvering thrusters (or the equivalent) change your facing. The current "1/2" speed rule attempts to model the inertia of ships but it Never eliminates the ships ability to turn. even when a ship is beat to heck and crippled, it gets 1/45 turn. your proposal could/would eliminate that if the speed drops too low.

Chern

What i am trying to get at is when a ship is slowed right up, it's turning ability become more effective than if it wasn't damaged because it still has more a certain distance. Reinforce Defense Grid Closing Blast doors makes you unable to turn if only have 1 turn &b that doesn't make sense either. I can see your point but it makes engine crits more deadly. At the moment it's usually the last thing you fix especially if makes your bad ass ship turn on a dime while healthy ships zoom on past. A CQ roll to turn is a mid point. Just think that the thursters are part of the engines since we don't have thrusters criticals or though always thought would be cool if some crits made you turn. Anyway there's only 1 crit that takes you down -4 speed, depending on your agility number whether it effects you, won't effect fast ships anyway just the big slow lumbering hulks. Might make being fast actually important instead just meaning you get into the range of the opponents weapons quicker.

 

[LordClinto]

But would also throw all simulation of inertia right out the window, i.e. Whitestar moves 15 inches in turn one in a straight line, turn two moves two inches, turns, moves two inches, turns. Ends movement. The G-forces involved would be unreal.

But what about that same White Star that moves it's full move, then during the shooting phase it gets hit with a 1-6 crit? Where does Inertia enter into the equation there? Wouldn't that same White Star continue moving uncontrolably in a strait line 15" with no turns instead of stopping dead? Wouldn't all of the crew be splattered against the bulkheads by that?

 

[TGT]

as prescribed I vote give each ship a bracket x value next to its speed, this will be its minimum distance moved before any turn.

 

[katadder]

target has it right IMO of this. basically each ship would have a number in brackets like shown. would also stop the 2" betweent turns as you would have to move this far between turns as well as before turns.
i also agree with chernobyl that no matter how badly damaged you can always make your turn at the end of your move. this would include speed 0 ships being able to make 1 45 degree turn due to manouvering thrusters as dont need to be going forward to actually turn a ship in space.

 

[Triggy]

This is something you need to be very careful with as it alters the whole balance of the game. In particular the entire principle that fleets need to keep moving and thus keeping the game fluid. With reducing the minimum move before turning you're cutting into that margin.

This could work but would need careful looking at first (and later) to get it right and have the different feel to the game work.

 

[katadder]

well thats why we are looking at it

 

[Triggy]

well thats why we are looking at it

Indeed

I'm only saying this is a bigger change than it appears at first.

 

[Ripple]

My Dazi would love it if it was a low number hate it if it was a high number.

Really could change the relationships between damage and effectiveness.

Huge wrangling issue as each ship will be an arguing point over whether it should be a six inch turn or a five inch turn, especially on slow boresighted ships which could easily lose their main gun if their turn numberr is too high.

Is it anymore realistic than the current system, or are we just trading up arguements I guess.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

maybe a differant approach cos at the moment speed kills. the amount of strikehawks i have seen circling the outside of a battle is crazy and all cos they are too fast to turn into the battle.

 

[Chernobyl]

Well, the rule mechanic proposed is pretty much similiar to BFG, where ships generally have a minimum move of 10cm or 15cm in order to turn. However, the ships in that game also have much narrower movement specs - usually 15, 20, or 25cm, not counting all ahead full. In ACTA there is a pretty wide disparity in the movement of ships, ranging from 4" to 15" (25/15 = ~1.66, 15/4 = 3.75), and the movement isn't segregated into large units, its every inch. 4,5,6,7,etc...

if you don't allow for a minimum of one turn every move, I think you'd need to allow for book-keeping to determine when a ship has moved far enough to make a turn, over the course of two or more game turns.

Chern

 

[katadder]

have put to allow for minimum of one turn, including one 45 degree turn if your speed is reduced to zero to represent station keeping/manouvering thrusters.

 

[Silvereye]

I am broadly in favour of this suggestion, for similar reasons as noted above, and I always thought that the critical hit tables could have done with an entry that reduces the number of turns, or the degree of turns.

However, like Chern, I would agree that a ship should always be allowed to make a turn once it has moved its maximum speed, irrespective of whether this move was sufficient to reach the turn threshold due to speed criticals.

Also, how would the Come About! special action be affected by this change? Certainly the number and degree of turn should hopefully be unaffected. It does have the potential to improve the SA to include reducing the distance required to be moved before a turn.

For example a ship might have:
Move 12(5)
Turn 2/45º

The SA might have the potential to alter the move to 12(3) meaning it can turn sooner.

 

[CodeofArms]

Come About! special action could reduce the turn value by 3 or do its usual changes to a ships turn etc