Magic of Legend

[Exubae]

In particular, I'm talking about sorcery which can be a real game breaker. Other elements are ok like Divine and Common Magic, but Spirit Magic is vague and the role of runes is unclear as well.

Common magic; Useful stuff though some of the spells are far to powerful... ie Sky bolt. I'd have preferred these spells to be weak, cheap, and useful. But over all pretty sound.

The current incarnation of Sorcery is less of a pain than RQ3's incarnation; in that you could have a damage boosting that lasted for years. So in that respect it has been toned down a lot.
- As a Gm you can restrict improvement rolls on Magical Skills or enforce down time for study to slow down progression. restrict certain spells to certain positions within the cult/organization.
- However Magic points tend to get eroded pretty quickly so unless the mage is weighted down with power storage devices they should be cautious.
Still its not a bad fit for a Hermetic magic style paradigm, I suppose you could take an ars magica style approach which scalewise is far more powerful than RQ magic it would also overshadow the other magic types.

The RQ Theist style magic , 'Divine magic' really needs to retain a cult/religion to give a degree of separation between each deity and breath a bit of life into a setting. Hero-questing shouldn't show up though in a core book, if it shows up at all, however its nice to have guidelines to see how your god would have acted in that situation and what action would best please him.

The Animistic magic; Spirit magic is pretty cool but it is still in its infancy and some of the effects need tightening up. Really this magic sub system needs a bit of tweaking/work to balance it and clarify its uses, but its cool.

I'd like to have seen a Mystical paradigm thrown in there as well; pseudo Indian/Chinese in flavour. I don't mean the Dragon Mystics from the EWF, but real worldly style, in a similar vein to the other magic sub-systems.

I think the Runes in the Core rule book are just a distraction, the space could have been used for expanding on the Shamanistic approach.

I'd rather they simply scrap the current magic systems and develop a new one. This is the one aspect of Runequest / Legend that I don't really like. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad system, but it seems rather Glorantha-centric and highly powerful and focused on cult organizations.

Scrap, I think that is a bit of an over reaction?
I've used RQ in its multiple incarnations in numerous settings, there is no need for you to include all magic types in your worlds;
I've used Sorcery only in Hyborea/Conan & Lankhmar background
Divine Cults only in a Greecian background
And currently running a game set in current days London just using the Spirit Magic rules.

I've also imposed changes to the multi-spell and duration skills in RQ3 Sorcery to inhibit the potency of some of the spell manipulations. But as I mentioned previously the new incarnation is far saner.

Cults are excellent way to promote theism/'Divine' magic though I must admit for non-glorantha setting I can't see the point of forcing a religious overtone on all the magic systems... it could be useful, though a generic magic school/Organization approach may have been better for sorcery/Shamanism. After all you need to learn these magical skills from someone.
Other than the cult-ified Sorcery the magic systems are pretty background neutral - its just that RQ has always tried to place everything in context of the characters reality/world rather than the 'no-brainer' approach taken by the earlier editions of D&D.

 

[Dan True]

I think it would be a terrible waste to scrap sorcery, To my perception, only a few spells pose the problems - generally Sorcerers tend to run out of MP pretty quick if they simply run amok.

But really, a terrible waste. Sorcery is one of the best magic systems I have ever seens.. The whole idea of combination and manipultion is fantastic.

- Dan

 

[Redcrow]

I don't have any real problems with the way MRQ2's magic systems work, but I don't really care for how the spells are organized. Maybe its par for the course that in Glorantha everbody and their brother has the ability to cast some of these fairly powerful spells, but I'm squarely in the camp that thinks for most general settings Common Magic should produce relatively minor, but useful effects.

Generally whenever I run a new fantasy game one of the first things I do is go through the spell list and personalize it to my style. That usually means eliminating some spells, categorizing the rest and even tweaking a few if needed. I categorize spells by how common I want them to be in the setting (Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare, Fahgedaboutit). Almost without exception one of the first spells to get the axe from me in most games is 'Teleport' or at the very least it gets moved straight to Fahgedaboutit status. Next I almost always tweak the way healing spells work and usually axe any type of Ressurection and move any type of Regeneration straight to Fahgedaboutit.

 

[Jujitsudave]

'Divine magic' really needs to retain a cult/religion to give a degree of separation between each deity and breath a bit of life into a setting. Hero-questing shouldn't show up though in a core book, if it shows up at all, however its nice to have guidelines to see how your god would have acted in that situation and what action would best please him.

Yes. Having everything tied into some kind of pseudo religious organization doesn't fit all campaigns.

I'd like to have seen a Mystical paradigm thrown in there as well; pseudo Indian/Chinese in flavour. I don't mean the Dragon Mystics from the EWF, but real worldly style, in a similar vein to the other magic sub-systems.

I whole-heartedly agree. Something like this would not only be unique but groundbreaking and an example for many other systems.

Scrap, I think that is a bit of an over reaction?
I've used RQ in its multiple incarnations in numerous settings, there is no need for you to include all magic types in your worlds;....I think it would be a terrible waste to scrap sorcery, To my perception, only a few spells pose the problems - generally Sorcerers tend to run out of MP pretty quick if they simply run amok.

True, but the capability should be there. Yes, it should be scrapped, but not because we don't need a sorcery system, but because it would be better served completely redone.

 

[Vile]

'Divine magic' really needs to retain a cult/religion to give a degree of separation between each deity and breath a bit of life into a setting.

Yes. Having everything tied into some kind of pseudo religious organization doesn't fit all campaigns.

Devil's advocate: It seems to have worked for D&D all these years. I know there have been deities shoehorned in and there may be specific advantages or disadvantages for followers of different gods (I don't know, never read splatbooks), but the basic system has always been a single set of cleric spells with some minor variations for evil.

 

[Mankcam]

No!

Well, that's a "No!' to a standard set 'Cleric List'.

What I'ld prefer is a variation of that. A large list of Generic Powers, aka Savage Worlds, MAGE, etc.

Then these can be tweaked and twisted according to Magic Backgrounds and Approaches, and have individual trappings applied down to the tee.

The core rulebook could list have some sample Magical Traditions, eg Wizardry & Spellcraft, Divine Abilities, Animisim, Mysticism, and Heroic/Super Abilities.

Something like that, but with the BRP/RQ2 gaming engine behind it all, now that would float the boat. And could still be compatible with Glorantha, so we haven't made our other products obsolete.

Just a passing thought...

 

[Exubae]

basic system has always been a single set of cleric spells with some minor variations for evil.

I must admit to disliking a good/evil alignment based out look; the mythic/religious based driving force for Divine magic feels better.
Perhaps the examples 'cults' should be greco-roman rather than fantasy as its far more accessible than a pure fantasy based cult structure.
Or even go with 'Ruling god', 'Under World God', 'Sea God' etc, which would allow then be easily slotted into any world.

I was thinking an organisations chapter would have been cool; Cults, Schools, and guilds. Once again vanilla in flavour but allowing the GM to attach Training and magic training sources to them.

 

[Mixster]

'Divine magic' really needs to retain a cult/religion to give a degree of separation between each deity and breath a bit of life into a setting.

Yes. Having everything tied into some kind of pseudo religious organization doesn't fit all campaigns.

Devil's advocate: It seems to have worked for D&D all these years. I know there have been deities shoehorned in and there may be specific advantages or disadvantages for followers of different gods (I don't know, never read splatbooks), but the basic system has always been a single set of cleric spells with some minor variations for evil.

Here I assume that by "fine" you mean: With huge balance issues, so big that at the higher levels anyone who didn't cast spells weren't doing anything useful.

 

[Jujitsudave]

Here I assume that by "fine" you mean: With huge balance issues, so big that at the higher levels anyone who didn't cast spells weren't doing anything useful

Exactly how MRQ Sorcery is about mid campaign. Precisely why I think it should be redone. At least it is better than the D&D "fire and forget" system,

The core rulebook could list have some sample Magical Traditions, eg Wizardry & Spellcraft, Divine Abilities, Animisim, Mysticism, and Heroic/Super Abilities.

YES!!! This is exactly what I am working on for the very reasons you have described.

People are saying that sorcerors burn MP pretty fast, but that's irrelevant when each of your spells can neutralize any threat in 1 or 2 castings. If you are casting a spell that will teleport a heavily guarded and important foe directly to you and helpless from miles away or turn a horde of foes into chickens in one shot, it SHOULD cost all or almost all of your MP. Also consider that resting for a while rejuvinates MP, preventing sorcerors from being obsolete after casting everything.

 

[Ultor]

People are saying that sorcerors burn MP pretty fast, but that's irrelevant when each of your spells can neutralize any threat in 1 or 2 castings. If you are casting a spell that will teleport a heavily guarded and important foe directly to you and helpless from miles away or turn a horde of foes into chickens in one shot, it SHOULD cost all or almost all of your MP. Also consider that resting for a while rejuvinates MP, preventing sorcerors from being obsolete after casting everything.

And I thought we were just being creative :lol:

I think there are a couple of answers here. First is that you can go back to the RQiii principle of manipulated sorcery costing a lot of MPs, eg 1 MP per manipulation point. So a character with high Manipulation can still do the powerful spell, but it will make him a one or two shot character at most. And if the opponent resists, the MPs should still be gone. RQiii allowed relatively easy MP storage, making sorcerers exceptionally powerful. MRQ2/Legend doesn't have that, though.

Second, myths and legends are full of protective charms. In a world with powerful magic, heavily guarded and important foes might well have charms that add +25%, +50% or more to their Persistence and/or Resilience skills for use against magic. They can be personally crafted for their bearers so no PC can pick them up and use them. Perhaps certain materials dampen magic - lead, wood, the color yellow...

None of these require a radical rewrite of the system. I wish Blood Magic had seen the light of day, as that had a magic system that perhaps fits the EoR setting better than the RAW, but which is not that different really. If Flavius had to sacrifice roosters to Mercury every time he cast a spell, it could have put a real damper on his activities in certain circumstances.

Also, Project (Sense) might do with some limitations. Perhaps spells just can't be cast through it, or only if all five senses are projected, or perhaps it needs an enchanted focus like a Crystal Ball or Palantir. Perhaps the observed parties can detect the projection (a literal Wizard Eye appears in front of them) and so can take action against it or run away faster than the projection moves (both of us as GMs have perhaps been too lax with the projection movement rules). That could really close down long distance magic.

 

[Redcrow]

People are saying that sorcerors burn MP pretty fast, but that's irrelevant when each of your spells can neutralize any threat in 1 or 2 castings. If you are casting a spell that will teleport a heavily guarded and important foe directly to you and helpless from miles away or turn a horde of foes into chickens in one shot, it SHOULD cost all or almost all of your MP. Also consider that resting for a while rejuvinates MP, preventing sorcerors from being obsolete after casting everything.

In Glorantha these situations aren't really a problem because everybody and their brother has access to Common Magic which includes 2 or 3 different protective magic spells. But for low magic settings its definitely problematic. Alot of the S&S style games I've played have various ways of balancing magic to eliminate A.M.S. (i.e. Artillery Mage Syndrome). Like increasing MP cost, casting time, unpredictability, etc.

It can be a difficult balance to achieve. On the one hand you don't want your spellcasters constantly overshadowing the mundanes in the group or wading through the opposition with impunity. But on the other hand you don't want to nerf the spellcasters to the point where nobody would ever want to play one.

 

[Redcrow]

Also, Project (Sense) might do with some limitations. Perhaps spells just can't be cast through it,

Thats how I've ruled it in my WH game. Its plenty useful without adding the ability to vaporize someone at a distance with little extra effort.

I prefer spells to be tools that are used for a specific job(s) rather than a crutch that is constantly leaned on at every turn. While I do try to encourage clever use of abilities, it can quickly turn to abuse when its overused and IME nothing gets abused more than Magic (or psionics, super powers, etc. depending on the game).

 

[Dan True]

In my campaign I have done three things to handle Sorcery:

- Removed the worst spells: Damage Enhancement/Resistance
- Ensured that sorcerers don't use armour (major penalty to sorcery skill)
- Re-introduced that many opponents have anti-magic stuff, even though Common Magic is not common in Eberron. This is done through wands with Neutalise Magic, one-off magic protective amulets etc.

Especially the low-armour part, ensures that the sorcerer is more careful... It only takes one enemy to loose a crossbow bolt at him and he can be in trouble - plus, it can ruin his concentration.

I really think you can do many things to Sorcery to handle it better, instead of just scrapping it - It's too good in my opinion to simply scratch
They could include an optional-rules box somewhere, with ideas on how to handle it?
Also, look at some of the spells... Teleport springs to mind in being weird.

- Dan

 

[Mongoose Pete]

None of these require a radical rewrite of the system. I wish Blood Magic had seen the light of day, as that had a magic system that perhaps fits the EoR setting better than the RAW, but which is not that different really. If Flavius had to sacrifice roosters to Mercury every time he cast a spell, it could have put a real damper on his activities in certain circumstances.

Very true.

Also, Project (Sense) might do with some limitations. Perhaps spells just can't be cast through it, or only if all five senses are projected, or perhaps it needs an enchanted focus like a Crystal Ball or Palantir. Perhaps the observed parties can detect the projection (a literal Wizard Eye appears in front of them) and so can take action against it or run away faster than the projection moves (both of us as GMs have perhaps been too lax with the projection movement rules). That could really close down long distance magic.

If you play the rules strictly there are many imaginative ways of neutralising the Project (Sense) issue, but the option was initially included to enable GMs to mimic a core trope of Evil Sorcerers in S&S. However, like all RPGs if you find something is too powerful you can always limit or even remove it. YGMV.

Something players (and some GMs) seem to forget is that the situation presented by Project (Sense) is no different than what we have in the real world. For example if two men argue to the point of one initiating violence, is it particularly fair that he later on attacks his opponent using a high powered hunting rifle with a telescopic scope? Not particularly - but one thing for sure - there will be consequences.

Maybe the victim escapes because the sniping (spell) fails or he is merely wounded. Maybe his spirit can be contacted to ask what happened (forensics). Maybe he can hide from detection long enough for help to arrive (shouting or mobile phone). Maybe he flees the area (runs like hell or jumps a car). Maybe he changes his local haunts entirely so he can't be found the next time... indeed, maybe all the locals move out of the area because a mad murderer is living nearby. Maybe the victim even hires his own magicians as protection.

For those who'd cry foul at my simile we have other real world examples all the way up to ICBMs which can obliterate entire cities from the other side of the planet. Fortunately for most of us social or political conventions prevent the use of such tactics. The Cold War became a Mexican Stand-off, whereas the asymmetric drone warfare in Afghanistan has resulted in those without the tech (sorcery) to evolve new types of subterfuge/retaliation.

So bringing this concept back into terms of roleplaying, if you have a problem with players blowing things away from afar, then get the NPCs to come up with counter measures - or have the authorities start taking an unwelcome interest. If on the other hand you are wondering why the Big Bad Guy of your campaign doesn't do the same thing to the PCs, you can twist the few few attempts in the players favour so that they survive long enough to create their own solutions.

After all an evil sorcerer in his tower has better things to do than spend all of his MPs and time trying to locate and trail a somebody remotely... and if he makes himself too much of an annoyance, then somebody higher up the food chain is going to come and ensure this sort of thing doesn't happen again.

Thats how I've ruled it in my WH game. Its plenty useful without adding the ability to vaporize someone at a distance with little extra effort.

Technically a sorcerer cannot cast something like a Wrack through a Project (Sense) spell because it would violate the 'By default a sorcerer can only concentrate on a single Concentration spell at any one time' rule.

Since almost all the deadly spells are Concentration based, casting them will cause the Project effect to temporarily cease, preventing the sorcerer 'knowing' where the target is and the attack to automatically fail. The system was designed so that a sorcerer can still do curse-like things from range using Autonomous spells, but even then they have to make a Persistence roll to succeed.

 

[Jujitsudave]

And I thought we were just being creative

....and you were, which I applaud, but allowing magic to go according to the rules as written has opened my eyes to just how overwhelming Sorcery as well as other magics that are mentioned can be to a campaign setting.

First is that you can go back to the RQiii principle of manipulated sorcery costing a lot of MPs, eg 1 MP per manipulation point. So a character with high Manipulation can still do the powerful spell, but it will make him a one or two shot character at most.

Something I have incorporated with the homebrew system I'm devising. Of course spells of a lower intensity are also useful and economical for magic-users in the setting as well. Storage is also touched upon, but not updated in the copy I sent you, Ultor.

Second, myths and legends are full of protective charms. In a world with powerful magic, heavily guarded and important foes might well have charms that add +25%, +50% or more to their Persistence and/or Resilience skills for use against magic. They can be personally crafted for their bearers so no PC can pick them up and use them. Perhaps certain materials dampen magic - lead, wood, the color yellow...

A very good idea, but few will know to use these in a lower magic setting. Of course, there are certain NPCs in EoR you will encounter that do....

If Flavius had to sacrifice roosters to Mercury every time he cast a spell, it could have put a real damper on his activities in certain circumstances.......Perhaps spells just can't be cast through it, or only if all five senses are projected, or perhaps it needs an enchanted focus like a Crystal Ball or Palantir.

It would indeed, but at this point I've already allowed it. Unless all the players agree to it, I can't change rules midstream. It's against my code of conduct as a GM. I originally intended to give out Project Sight as a kind of scrying spell and Shapeshift Man to Bird as a way for a druid to transform to a crow. Not to blast unwitting NPCs with Chickens of the Infinite through mobile Satcom. I blame myself for not reading the magic rules closely enough.
Ritual spells for major effecs are another concept in what I'm putting together.

I really think you can do many things to Sorcery to handle it better, instead of just scrapping it - It's too good in my opinion to simply scratch

I guess I just disagree. It's not a bad system, just not one size fits all. That size doesn't fit my game. A major redo could really benefit a lot of people because there are a variety of campaign styles out there that need to be represented in an open source licence as Legend supposedly will be.

I feel that magic should be strong yet subtle. It should outperform mundane actions, yet it should be finite, making mundane abilities more reliable and not a mystical arms race of "who's super powers are better".

 

[Redcrow]

Something players (and some GMs) seem to forget is that the situation presented by Project (Sense) is no different than what we have in the real world. For example if two men argue to the point of one initiating violence, is it particularly fair that he later on attacks his opponent using a high powered hunting rifle with a telescopic scope? Not particularly - but one thing for sure - there will be consequences.

But in the real world we have dedicated forensics experts and homicide detectives. In many low magic settings there is unlikely to be a dedicated force of magical detectives and forensic experts in every city to find and apprehend the suspect.

For those who'd cry foul at my simile we have other real world examples all the way up to ICBMs which can obliterate entire cities from the other side of the planet.

Its virtually impossible for a country to launch an ICBM without every other industrialized country knowing where it came from. Not always so in a low magic setting where not every town & city has an on duty magic detector.

So bringing this concept back into terms of roleplaying, if you have a problem with players blowing things away from afar, then get the NPCs to come up with counter measures - or have the authorities start taking an unwelcome interest.

Magical countermeasures would require increasing the amount of magic available in the setting and then its not really a low magic setting anymore. Thats not to say some NPCs wouldn't have magical countermeasures, but it certainly wouldn't necessarily be ubiquitous or common even amongst the rich and powerful.

Authorities taking an unwelcome interest implies they always have some evidence against the suspect, but in most of my (low magic) games the authorities are as likely to accuse, apprehend, and execute an innocent person just to appease a sense of justice and because they have no real way of finding the actual person responsible. In fact there is such a great fear and superstition concerning magic in the setting this is actually a common occurence for 'alleged' crimes that aren't really magical at all. Just like the Witch Hunts of our own dark history.

Technically a sorcerer cannot cast something like a Wrack through a Project (Sense) spell because it would violate the 'By default a sorcerer can only concentrate on a single Concentration spell at any one time' rule.

I was lookinig specifically at Disruption and Skybolt which are both Instant spells and don't require concentration. Two potentially very deadly spells that are apparently considered Common Magic in Glorantha. As I mentioned before, that may be perfectly fine in a world like Glorantha where everybody and their brother can cast Common Magic and has access to the 2 or 3 protective spells listed there, but in a low magic setting its a bit much.

I'm sure there are all sorts of creative ways I as a GM could counter abuse of certain spells within the narrative of the game, but honestly its just easier to tweak the spells themselves and not have to worry about it.

Glorantha is just a high magic setting and MRQ2 probably does a great job of reflecting that setting, but its just not well suited as is to a low magic S&S setting without a bit of tweaking and pruning or a lot of unnecessary 'goalie' work by the GM.

I've made a few tweaks and adjustments to make the MRQ2 magic systems work for my own game, but I have to disagree that they can be easily used as is in any low magic setting.

 

[soltakss]

I was lookinig specifically at Disruption and Skybolt which are both Instant spells and don't require concentration. Two potentially very deadly spells that are apparently considered Common Magic in Glorantha. As I mentioned before, that may be perfectly fine in a world like Glorantha where everybody and their brother can cast Common Magic and has access to the 2 or 3 protective spells listed there, but in a low magic setting its a bit much.

Disruption's OK, but Skybolt was broken for several reasons - Originally it was associated with the Chaos Rune and Orlanth had the spell, it is as powerful as a Divine Spell and was written by someone who had no idea how to balance RuneQuest magic.

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Glorantha is just a high magic setting and MRQ2 probably does a great job of reflecting that setting, but its just not well suited as is to a low magic S&S setting without a bit of tweaking and pruning or a lot of unnecessary 'goalie' work by the GM.

Sadly, one of the greatest difficulties faced when designing rules is that there is no such thing as a perfect game system. We all have different settings, play styles, rules interpretations, and so on. As the writers it is nearly impossible for us to introduce rigid guidelines in the core rules, or present pre-set cults, closed spell lists, specific combat styles without removing the game's flexibility, or even alienating part of the fan base. Such things are better left for setting specific books.

If not playing a published campaign I actually do think its a necessary, indeed inherent part of a GMs job to tailor rules to fit his imagined world and players expectations... All game balance in a personally created campaign is. Of course I'd find tweaking magic in MRQ2 to fit S&S far, far easier than I would if I were using other systems. Happily you seem to too. But I fully understand that one man's mountain can be another man's molehill.

 

[HalfOrc HalfBiscuit]

Just a couple of quick thoughts.

I certainly wouldn't want any of the existing magic systems removed from Legend. It might though be wise to include a specific acknowledgement that playing the RAW is best in a a setting where magic is common and high-powered, and put in sidebars for options for making magic either rarer or lower powered.

I also think (further up the thread) people are getting too hung up on the terminology of cults. Call sorcery and spirit magic cults "schools" or "traditions", call their myths "precepts" or "principles" - there's no need to change the actually mechanics, IMHO.

Finally, I do hope "Blood Magic" does eventually see the light of day - everything I've heard about it makes me want it.

 

[Simulacrum]

If not playing a published campaign I actually do think its a necessary, indeed inherent part of a GMs job to tailor rules to fit his imagined world and players expectations... All game balance in a personally created campaign is. Of course I'd find tweaking magic in MRQ2 to fit S&S far, far easier than I would if I were using other systems. Happily you seem to too. But I fully understand that one man's mountain can be another man's molehill.

What Pete said. You either set your world up to absorb the RAW, or you set up your world the way you want it and adapt the rules where necessary. For my part I needed to tweak sorcery and divine magic, but think very hard about what "common magic" is, how common it is, and where it is encountered. In the end I applied it less as coherent magic system in its own right, but as a "filler" where I needed particular magic effects to be possible for people who otherwise indulge in spirit or divine - using specific spells rather than the list. I also or applied it as the "effect" of magic gained through different cultural systems - so a clansmen from a horse tribe gradually adds to his tattoos over the course of his life/career, activating each new embellishment with a POW dedication to the clan ancestors, and some of the magic his clan tattoos grant him produces common magic effects.