Low Berth travel is for the condemned only?

[Reynard]

On what page in either the Core Book or High Guard or whichever is there rules or a design option for Hiber-passage? I have yet to see one high TL ship with Hiber-chambers....

Oh wait, these are your replacement rules! Should have known. Home brew and therefore not actually of consequence beyond mutually consenting gamers. I though we were talking actual standard rule. Never mind. So sorry I misunderstood unless you can show me the pages for them. There's a lot to page through and I may have missed it.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Lets say you wanted to travel 2 parsecs in a Serpent Police Cutter. The statistics say that it has 12 tons of fuel for 4 weeks of operation, and it has 20 tons of cargo space. Lets add another 12 tons of fuel for 8 weeks of operation, and two low berths for 1 ton, leaving 7 tons remaining for cargo. A parsec is 3.26 light years so two of them is 6.52 light years. If the Police cutter accelerates at 6 g for 4 weeks, that is 2,419,200 seconds times 60 meters per second squared which equals 145,152,000 meters per second which is 48.3% of the speed of light, it would take 13.48 years to cross 2 parsecs in a Serpent Police cutter as modified above. The Cutter would accelerate for 4 weeks to reach this velocity, then the crew would climb into there low berths, and the ship's systems would then shut down to minimal power usage, just enough to maintain the low berths, and the ship would drift for 13.48 years at 48.3% of the speed of light. Towards the end of the journey the timer would automatically power up the ship's systems, and cycle the crew out of their low berth tubes, the the maneuver drive would be activated to slow down the ship for another 4 weeks. That is how you would travel without a jump drive.

 

[Reynard]

That scenario is great for the Khan episode of Star Trek or Planet of the Apes but that's not how Traveller works any more than we can set a naval freighter on auto for years. Even automated commercial naval freighters have a skeleton crew. You have a crew to monitor and maintain the ship constantly. You get regular port maintenance so the ship doesn't degrade. You also have astrogators, sensor operators and pilots to react to unforeseen situations. Add the fact there is no chance for a Medic check to survive thawing if everyone is in cryo. Even the Medic in low berth needs that Medic check. That's a ship of the dead. If you happen to have a Medic drone that. hopefully, activates at the end of the trip, you have some chance to survive but if you're that high in technology you have very good jump ability unless this is a What If scenario.

Your scenario sounds like a rich dude purposely wanting to do this but didn't think it through. In fact here is a great event for a Traveller adventure when the party picks up on sensors a ship decelerating from a fantastic velocity and there are no communications. The logs will be interesting.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

That scenario is great for the Khan episode of Star Trek or Planet of the Apes but that's not how Traveller works any more than we can set a naval freighter on auto for years. Even automated commercial naval freighters have a skeleton crew. You have a crew to monitor and maintain the ship constantly. You get regular port maintenance so the ship doesn't degrade. You also have astrogators, sensor operators and pilots to react to unforeseen situations. Add the fact there is no chance for a Medic check to survive thawing if everyone is in cryo. Even the Medic in low berth needs that Medic check. That's a ship of the dead. If you happen to have a Medic drone that. hopefully, activates at the end of the trip, you have some chance to survive but if you're that high in technology you have very good jump ability unless this is a What If scenario.

Your scenario sounds like a rich dude purposely wanting to do this but didn't think it through. In fact here is a great event for a Traveller adventure when the party picks up on sensors a ship decelerating from a fantastic velocity and there are no communications. The logs will be interesting.

I don't see what the big deal is. NASA uses automatic spacecraft all the time. besides, I said the crew awakens before the ship decelerates. All were asking the ship to do here is obey Issac Newton's law of Inertia for 13.4 years. The ship doesn't do much other that travel in a straight line at a constant velocity while the crew is in their low berths, planets manage this feat well enough without a crew guiding them. So all that's required is for a reliable atomic clock, that ticks away the seconds of the cruise, when the time is right, the ship is powered up. As for reviving the crew, a robot could do that, basically the ship's computer runs the robot, and the software on the ship's computer running the robot was written by a medical expert, skilled in reviving people from low berths.

As for the advantages, if you wanted to cross a rift that was 10 parsecs wide, it would take 67 years. A ship with a Jump 6 drive couldn't do this, but one with a maneuver 6 could, so long as you didn't mind waiting 67 years to get there. Also in classic traveller, this would make an excellent surprise situation. Say a fleet wants to invade a planet. The planet has a false sense of security because it is located at the edge of a rift, so for any enemy to get their, it has to pass through several systems first along a know corridor, but if the enemy fleet were to cross the rift at sublight, and didn't mind taking 67 years to do it, and didn't value the lives of its crew and was willing to risk it in low berths, this could be quite a surprise for the target planet.

 

[Reynard]

"I don't see what the big deal is. NASA uses automatic spacecraft all the time. besides, I said the crew awakens before the ship decelerates"

Read the rules for low berth. You need a Medic check to survive and that means there needs to be a Medic awake to make the check. Since there is no one to perform a Medic check, the check fails automatically. An untrained person would incur a -3 penalty to a check but they are actually performing the Task. So yeah, ship of the dead.

And the ship isn't completely shut down. The power plant still operates even at minimal levels and sensors and controls still function no matter how low powered month after month. Those low berths are probably the one item operating at full power and need constant observation and care. Far too much can go wrong without crew to monitor and repair. It's not a dead ball capsule.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

"I don't see what the big deal is. NASA uses automatic spacecraft all the time. besides, I said the crew awakens before the ship decelerates"

Read the rules for low berth. You need a Medic check to survive and that means there needs to be a Medic awake to make the check. Since there is no one to perform a Medic check, the check fails automatically. An untrained person would incur a -3 penalty to a check but they are actually performing the Task. So yeah, ship of the dead.

And the ship isn't completely shut down. The power plant still operates even at minimal levels and sensors and controls still function no matter how low powered month after month. Those low berths are probably the one item operating at full power and need constant observation and care. Far too much can go wrong without crew to monitor and repair. It's not a dead ball capsule.

It doesn't take much power to run a clock, also the temperature of interstellar space is lower than that of liquid nitrogen, doesn't take much power to keep frozen things frozen out there. Also aren't their robots and AI computers in Traveller are tech level 16. My T20 book lists AI as TL16, that is just 1 higher that TL15, a prototype AI computer controlling a robot, could have the skills necessary to revive a low berth passenger. I have a lab ship design 1600 ton lab ship, I am figuring I might incorporate low berths into an adventure. You see after someone goes into a low berth, he loses control over what happens to him afterwards, what if some unscrupulous scientist were to do an experiment? Basically the players arranged to be transported somewhere by low Berth, and then pirates intercepted the ship they were on, and sold the low berth passengers to some unscupulous scientist with a 1600 ton lab ship, and decided to do an experiment with them. The player begin play with their characters coming out of the low berths and not being where they expected to be, there is no one here to greet them, the starship is empty, so they just have to look around to discover what happened.

What if there was a lone star system in the middle of a rift that some scientist wants to explore, and there is no way to get their in a Jump Drive because its too far, therefore the ship has to get there in normal space, which means it takes several decades to get there, the scientist is a coward, and doesn't want to go their himself, but he could buy some low berth passengers captured by pirates and arrange to have them placed on board the starship and to awake when his ship gets there.

 

[Reynard]

Why are you coming up with a tangential and wild story about a mad scientist on a TL 15 lab ship who buys low berth chambers with bodies in them to dismount then refit on another ship to prove how you think low berth work in another story about a conjectural TL 15 modified police cutter (MgT ships are normally at 3I average 12-13)? Then you spontaneously introduce into the discussion things like super computers to explain the lack of skill. Give a hard explanation to your rule interpretation rather than in interpretive dance.

At least state your devising situations which seriously hand wave away any semblance of hard science where complex electronic and mechanical devises do not deteriorate over long periods plus everything is set to the Imperial TL maximum. A full description aids in setting up the situation you are trying to convey especially if the elements don't fit the norm. It's a great story for the concept of sublight interstellar travel but it misses the rules elements of Traveller.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Why are you coming up with a tangential and wild story about a mad scientist on a TL 15 lab ship who buys low berth chambers with bodies in them to dismount then refit on another ship to prove how you think low berth work in another story about a conjectural TL 15 modified police cutter (MgT ships are normally at 3I average 12-13)?

To explain how low berths could be used in a story.

Then you spontaneously introduce into the discussion things like super computers to explain the lack of skill. Give a hard explanation to your rule interpretation rather than in interpretive dance.

Why do you think humans need to be doing everything? Traveller has robots in it, does it not? if robots can be programmed, they can also have skills, otherwise what good are they?

At least state your devising situations which seriously hand wave away any semblance of hard science where complex electronic and mechanical devises do not deteriorate over long periods plus everything is set to the Imperial TL maximum.

How would they deteriorate? In space things don't deteriorate, their are still footprints of the astronauts on the Moon. the devices may be complex, but they are off, there is no wear and tear when their are no moving parts. The devices just need to be preserved so they function when turned on again. NASA has machines out there that have lasted 37 years, 67 years is not an impossible stretch. Most starships, which don't have Jump drives, have to last a long time, that is part of their design perimeters. Are you just looking for reasons why not? Is this a debating society? Are you trying to win on points? just wondering.

I get tired of this "cockfighting", somehow you've gotten it in your head that this is a debating competition and you are trying to win. I just like to solve problems, explain how something might happen, and somehow you got your ego behind trying to prove the assertion that Low berths are useless for other than low passage.

 

[sideranautae]

Now we just need some art work to go with the Star Port supplements that shows all the metal coffins stacking up and busy ports like Regina.

 

[Rick]

Now we just need some art work to go with the Star Port supplements that shows all the metal coffins stacking up and busy ports like Regina.

Whilst I quite like the idea of your 'tubes', I can't help thinking there are more factors to consider that make Low Berth feasible. For one, with Low Berth, you really don't need a medic if you are going from Starport to Starport - there is probably a dedicated team at A or B 'ports that will unfreeze your passengers (for a small fee, of course), who will certainly have a speciality in Low Berth (medic (Low Berth) 2, good aids/assistance, increasing time spent to unfreeze would give +4 DM to his medic skill - for an average task, medic 2 skill and an average END of +0, I can't see much chance of failure). Contrast that with your 'tube' system, where you would have to have a medic (or team) on board to monitor the IV drug and nutrient balance, etc. - basically all the care that a coma patient would need, and I think the Low Berth is a viable option.
Plus, I think that loading the Low Berth capsules is likely to be done on board ship, prior to departure, so not many 'metal coffins' stacked up to be shipped.

 

[sideranautae]

Whilst I quite like the idea of your 'tubes', I can't help thinking there are more factors to consider that make Low Berth feasible. For one, with Low Berth, you really don't need a medic if you are going from Starport to Starport - there is probably a dedicated team at A or B 'ports that will unfreeze your passengers (for a small fee, of course), who will certainly have a speciality in Low Berth (medic (Low Berth) 2,

At the prices charged for passage?, no. A specialist M.D. (which would be Med-3 BTW) standing by to handle incoming Low Passage patient isn't economically feasible. So, at the prices charged, we're back to coffins stacking up at starports.

 

[Rick]

Whilst I quite like the idea of your 'tubes', I can't help thinking there are more factors to consider that make Low Berth feasible. For one, with Low Berth, you really don't need a medic if you are going from Starport to Starport - there is probably a dedicated team at A or B 'ports that will unfreeze your passengers (for a small fee, of course), who will certainly have a speciality in Low Berth (medic (Low Berth) 2,

At the prices charged for passage?, no. A specialist M.D. standing by to handle incoming Low Passage patient isn't economically feasible

Possibly not a dedicated team, then. Probably available as a service if the 'port has a medical facility. It did get me thinking about the costs of services, though; surgery is 1d6 x 50 x TL credits. Presumably, the surgeon has a much higher medic skill than an MD (assuming MD is 2, specialist is 3 or 4, surgeon is 4 or 5?), so the costs would be proportionally lower for an MD's 'consultation'.

 

[sideranautae]

Possibly not a dedicated team, then. Probably available as a service if the 'port has a medical facility. It did get me thinking about the costs of services, though; surgery is 1d6 x 50 x TL credits. Presumably, the surgeon has a much higher medic skill than an MD (assuming MD is 2, specialist is 3 or 4, surgeon is 4 or 5?), so the costs would be proportionally lower for an MD's 'consultation'.

It wouldn't be by the hour. You'd have to have a dedicated doctors at any but the most backwater star ports. Did you calculate the % failure throws with a Med-2 at Average +0 difficulty level? Even if you piled on a +6 DM every time you still end up with 1 in 36 (~3%) croaking.

 

[Rick]

Did you calculate the % failure throws with a Med-2 at Average +0 difficulty level? Even if you piled on a +6 DM every time you still end up with 1 in 36 (~3%) croaking.

Ok. What am I missing?
I have a +6 DM, I have to roll 2d6 and get 8+. Where is the failure?
As far as I can make out, every roll would succeed, there is no margin of success, it's a straight win/lose roll where I can't roll less than a success.
Or am I missing something?

 

[GypsyComet]

Did you calculate the % failure throws with a Med-2 at Average +0 difficulty level? Even if you piled on a +6 DM every time you still end up with 1 in 36 (~3%) croaking.

Ok. What am I missing?
I have a +6 DM, I have to roll 2d6 and get 8+. Where is the failure?
As far as I can make out, every roll would succeed, there is no margin of success, it's a straight win/lose roll where I can't roll less than a success.
Or am I missing something?

Not in the Skills chapter. In fact, the table on page 49 is quite clear that a +6 DM/Target of 2+ is a 100% chance of success. In reality it probably isn't, but failure would be well below the 2.78% that a 3+ target gives.

I disagree with the presumption that Medic-3 is out of line for a Port Doctor. I also disagree with the implication that the rules for Low Berths disallow other Skill Check rules such as Situational Modifiers, Assisting, or Extra Time, all of which are part of the standard rules in the Skills chapter.

 

[sideranautae]

Ok. What am I missing?
I have a +6 DM, I have to roll 2d6 and get 8+. Where is the failure?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing that the average mod isn't going to be as high +6. Pretty simple. Nothing in the rules supports that assumption.

ALSO, this is with figuring that it is +0 (average) difficulty task. Which is the same level as giving 1st aid to someone with minor, non-life threatening injuries. Now, a person being taken out of a LB is in a life threatening, near death situation so we'll make it difficulty rating in line with examples, to a -2 (Difficult) task..

 

[Rick]

Ok. What am I missing?
I have a +6 DM, I have to roll 2d6 and get 8+. Where is the failure?

Or am I missing something?

You're missing that the average mod isn't going to be as high +6. Pretty simple. Nothing in the rules supports that assumption.

ALSO, this is with figuring that it is +0 (average) difficulty task. Which is the same level as giving 1st aid to someone with minor, non-life threatening injuries. Now, a person being taken out of a LB is in a life threatening, near death situation so we'll make it difficulty rating in line with examples, to a -2 (Difficult) task..

Ok. I was assuming that, like any other skill use, you could use a speciality and situational modifiers to achieve the result, as there is nothing in the rules that does not support that assumption.
As to the difficulty of the task, I may have been overly critical in assuming it was average difficulty; when you look at the difficulty levels in the rules, a case could be made for it being Easy difficulty (activating an unfamiliar (I was being generous - the next difficulty lower may be even more appropriate) device that has a clear and simple interface). A person in a Low Berth is not in a dangerous 'life threatening, near death experience' - they are contained in a standard, familiar device that just needs to be activated and monitored - the passenger should always recover with minimal help from the medic operating the Low Berth.
The only times that there might be problems are if the passenger was ill or injured going in (END DM), the Low Berth is damaged or faulty, or if the operator speeds up the process (increment is about 10 mins, I think).
So, with all this in mind, I'm afraid I cannot agree with you that the DM's would not stack up - I believe they would.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Wouldn't a TL12 AutoDoc be able to revive a Low Berth passenger without a Medic?

 

[Rick]

Wouldn't a TL12 AutoDoc be able to revive a Low Berth passenger without a Medic?

Don't think it could really, although that is merely an opinion, not something that could be supported or not by the RAW. You could probably use an expert program, but that is just an opinion as well.

 

[Anonymous]

Wouldn't a TL12 AutoDoc be able to revive a Low Berth passenger without a Medic?

I'd argue that the AD would be interfaced across the ship's network with the low berths and it would control the revival process. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Either that or have the ship's computer running expert and medic programmes and let it do the work.