sideranautae
Mongoose
Reynard said:
True but it could be argued that anyone willing to do so with those death rates is non compos mentis and thus can't enter into a contract.
Low Berth travel is for the condemned only?
- Thread starter sideranautae
- Start date
True but it could be argued that anyone willing to do so with those death rates is non compos mentis and thus can't enter into a contract.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
sideranautae said:
But you see, Traveller ships don't need to go in at skimming speed, they got reactionless thrusters and can hover in a gas giant's atmosphere, it probably is best is the ship is moving through the atmosphere at a subsonic airliner speed, The Scout Ship, Free Trader, and Subsidized Merchants all are streamlined and have lifting bodies or wings, if the engines conk out they will still glide through the atmosphere on aerodynamic lift, this will give passengers and crew time to get into the lifeboats before the ship sinks into the gas giant's crushing depths. Also being emersed deep in an atmosphere offers some advantages. There is this, the main fuel is hydrogen in liquid form, and do you know what the temperature of liquid hydrogen is? -253°C or 20 K, so part of what a fuel processor has got to do is cool this hydrogen down to 20 K in order to be stored in the liquid hydrogen tanks, and you can't get enough hydrogen in their as a gas, so it must be cooled and liquified. As the scout ship or whatever cruises through the gas giant's atmosphere it collects hydrogen and then cools it a lot, so heat has to be removed from the hydrogen it collects and dumped outside. Now the atmosphere of most gas giants is pretty cold, as most of them form and remain in the outer solar system, but not 20 K cold? The heat is then transported from the collected hydrogen to the outer skin of the star ship and the atmosphere convects that extra heat away, the alternative is to radiate that heat into space, and convection is more efficient, and allows you to accumulate the required hydrogen a lot quicker where the atmosphere is thicker where it absorbs more heat from the ship and their simply is more hydrogen to collect. For a Traveller ship, climbing out of a gas giant's atmosphere is not really a problem, since they have reactionless drives anyway and an accelerate for weeks on tiny amounts of power plant fuel.
Now the reason a commercial vessel would go to an uninhabited system would be to refuel on the way to an inhabited system where they can sell their cargo. To give you an example, a Free Trader has jump 1 and only fuel storage for 1 jump. Lets say the intended destination is 2 parsecs away, but inbetween their is a red dwarf system with a gas giant orbiting it, no inhabited planets, the only thing of interest to merchants their is the gas giant because they can refuel their on the way to some place that is profitable to go to, and the fuel at the gas giant is free and their is plenty of it. The Merchants don't want to carry extra fuel tanks because it means they can haul less cargo and that reduces their profits, so they stop off at this gas giant and refuel. Gas giants of course have clouds and also storms, sometimes lightning, so a lightning strike is possible while they do this.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Tom Kalbfus said:
Most merchant ships have only 1G M-drives. They can't hover in the atmosphere of a GG as the pull of gravity is higher than 1 G. They'd would go down. The ONLY way for them to skim is to maintain orbital velocity. (the speed I mentioned) Or, die.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
If it is streamlined, it can use the ship's shape to maintain aerodynamic lift A 1 g thruster is more that sufficient to push a Free trader through at atmosphere much in the same fashion that a jet engine does with an airliner. Jet engines rarely accelerate at more than 1 g anyway. Ever fly in a Jet Airplane, even at takeoff you are not pressed to the back of your seat at more that 1g of force, because if you were, it would feel like you were lying on your back with your feet up as you sat in the chair.sideranautae said:
You see this?
If you push it through an atmosphere it would fly, its entire surface is a lifting body, that would work even if the gas giant's gravity was greater than 1 g. Jet engines do it all the time, few are capable of vertical takeoffs, that is why most Jets need runways.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Tom Kalbfus said:
It doesn't work that way. A very close friend of mine was an A-12 YF-12 pilot and, X-15 pilot. I asked him (years ago) about the same scenario. (I actually got him to play a couple games of Trav
) Without thrust greater than the pull of gravity you don't make it into orbit as the lift goes before enough atmospheric drag is gone and, you go down.Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Its possible to reach orbital velocity within an atmosphere, that is what a scramjet was supposed to do, it that because it is hard to burn jet fuel in an engine at hypersonic speed, but a reactionless thruster doesn't require that, it doesn't even require oxygen or even reaction mass as rockets do The reason most rockets today put out multiple gs is because it doesn't have enough fuel to accelerate to orbit at 1 g, as it burns through that fuel too quickly to do that.sideranautae said:Tom Kalbfus said:
It doesn't work that way. A very close friend of mine was an A-12 YF-12 pilot and, X-15 pilot. I asked him (years ago) about the same scenario. (I actually got him to play a couple games of Trav
sideranautae
Mongoose
Tom Kalbfus said:
Not the way you have modeled it with a Free Trader. Sorry. If you gave a 747 0.5G accel it wouldn't make it into orbit.
sideranautae said:
>Buzzer Sound< Wrong Answer, or I should say assumption, the current assumption common assumption is that all ships have Contragravity plus thrusters as part of their maneuver drives, ergo they can hover despite the surface gravity....
Hint, 1g thrust only won't get you off size 7+ planets.....
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Well theoretically, a thrust exactly equal to the acceleration due to gravity on Earth, will cause a ship to hover. A person just gets under the ship, and pushes it upwards, since gravity is negated, the ship will continue upwards due to inertia, and as it got further away from the Earth the gravity pulling on it will diminish according to the inverse square law, but the acceleration due to the thrusters will remain the same, it will accelerate faster and faster the further it got away from the Earth. On Saturn, due to the planet's rapid spin, the force of gravity over the equator is less than that of Earth, over Saturn's poles its greater, but not by much. The only gas giant with high gravity in our Solar System is Jupiter, the other three have gravity about the same as the Earth. But contra gravity would solve that problem anyway - until it stopped working, then hopefully it can glide long enough for the crew to get to the lifeboats - which have contragravity and thrusters also.Infojunky said:
tolcreator
Mongoose
Yeah the death rate in low berths, as written, is insane. Only the truly desperate would travel that way.
Like, "Give Julio $1000, and he'll smuggle you into the USA in a shipping container, don't worry we'll poke a few holes in it, only 10% of you will die" desperate. Which seems wrong for the theme and flavour of a free trader game.
My house rule is: If you fail the roll, something has gone wrong. Make another roll to sort out the thing that went wrong (same DMs), and roll on the Injury chart, adding the effect of that roll. Over 6: No effect. Under 1: Dead. Between 1 and 6: Take whatever damage is indicated, and this can't be fixed by another quick medic check, it requires whatever surgery indicated on the table.
This makes low berth still dangerous, but it's a realistic dangerous, rather than a game of Russian roulette.
Like, "Give Julio $1000, and he'll smuggle you into the USA in a shipping container, don't worry we'll poke a few holes in it, only 10% of you will die" desperate. Which seems wrong for the theme and flavour of a free trader game.
My house rule is: If you fail the roll, something has gone wrong. Make another roll to sort out the thing that went wrong (same DMs), and roll on the Injury chart, adding the effect of that roll. Over 6: No effect. Under 1: Dead. Between 1 and 6: Take whatever damage is indicated, and this can't be fixed by another quick medic check, it requires whatever surgery indicated on the table.
This makes low berth still dangerous, but it's a realistic dangerous, rather than a game of Russian roulette.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
I don't see why they can't be improved, what if company X invents the Low Berth, and says, "isn't it great." Company Y says, "You low berths are killing people!" Company X says, "Well what choice do they have, they can't afford high passage so they risk death." Company Y says, "Well we can reduce the cost of mid passage by cutting down on radiation shielding, so they take a few rads while traveling in space, who cares, people want their cut rate tickets don't they?" Company Z says, "Maybe there is a way to reduce the risk for low berth passengers." Company X says, "Don't bother, people know what they're getting into and they don't mind dying!" Company Z says, "I don't think so, well were going to invest some money improving the process of freezing people, you can continue selling your death traps and see what happens."
A few years later, company X says, "Hey what happened, why aren't people buying our low berths anymore?" "Its company Z," said the adviser, "They are selling low berths that don't kill their passengers as much, and people aren't buying our low berths anymore!" "What's the matter," Company X exclaimed, "They knew the risk when they got into our product, why aren't they doing it anymore?" "There is a better product on the market," explains the adviser, "and we didn't invest in improved safety and our competition did, besides we only offered our low berths in one color, black!"
A few years later, company X says, "Hey what happened, why aren't people buying our low berths anymore?" "Its company Z," said the adviser, "They are selling low berths that don't kill their passengers as much, and people aren't buying our low berths anymore!" "What's the matter," Company X exclaimed, "They knew the risk when they got into our product, why aren't they doing it anymore?" "There is a better product on the market," explains the adviser, "and we didn't invest in improved safety and our competition did, besides we only offered our low berths in one color, black!"
Doesn't matter how fast its falling, as there is nothing to crash into, as the atmosphere gets denser the fall will slow, even if it was a brick, past a certain point, it will sink like a ship in the ocean, rather than fall. This should allow plenty of time to get to the life boats. As a crash is not imminent, what will happen is the ship will eventually get crushed by the atmosphere, but before that happens the ships fall will be slowed by the thickening atmosphere. You heard for instance that you don't need a parachute to make a soft landing on Venus, the heat will kill you, the pressure will kill you, but one thing you won't get killed by is crashing into the surface of Venus. A gas giant like Jupiter is colder than Venus, by the time it reaches room temperature, the atmosphere is already denser than Earth, teminal velocity won't be that high no matter what the glide charateristics of your spacecraft is.Infojunky said:
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
The low berth has been around for thousands of years... thousands. What is presented in Traveller is what works best after all the improvements and tinkering. It must be a matter if biochemistry that says it ain't gonna get better. Sure, you can hire the best physicians with the best medical facilities to greatly reduce a bad outcome. Hospitals do that all the time. Problem is that is very expensive and would be passed to the consumer. No consumer who has any money is climbing into a ship coffin. They ride awake in economy and upper class berths.
You still have this technology and it's fairly cheap especially considering the passenger takes up little room and doesn't need expensive life support. People in Traveller fill up these steerage berths all the time and it's very legal with a mere waiver so it's a big win for entrepreneurs.
Seriously, on 21st century Earth, companies, corporations or even Mom and Pop businesses NEVER do anything that is dangerous to consumers if it could mean more money on a calculated risk?! Here's some advice fellow Travellers, don't get in a low berth. Let the other cheap guy get in and only get in low berth lotteries.
You still have this technology and it's fairly cheap especially considering the passenger takes up little room and doesn't need expensive life support. People in Traveller fill up these steerage berths all the time and it's very legal with a mere waiver so it's a big win for entrepreneurs.
Seriously, on 21st century Earth, companies, corporations or even Mom and Pop businesses NEVER do anything that is dangerous to consumers if it could mean more money on a calculated risk?! Here's some advice fellow Travellers, don't get in a low berth. Let the other cheap guy get in and only get in low berth lotteries.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
Reynard said:
I can imagine some merchant captains that simply refuse to have them, they don't like disposing of the dead bodies afterwards, and they would have to if they were to use the low berths again. Another problem is the unlucky passengers might have some relatives and friends who would blame it all on the captain, and maybe they aren't rich enough to afford mid or high passage, but they could certainly afford a gun! Is the Captain going to dare show his face at that starport again knowing that some of those dead passenger's relatives and friends might be waiting for him?
Also some captains might not like writing letters to dead passengers relatives asking what funeral arrangements they would like. I think if someone is going to buy low passage on a ship, its most likely to be a pirate ship, people who don't mind removing bodies from low berths. Problem is, you can't always trust a pirate! Legitimate merchants just don't want dead bodies on their ship, and crewmen get squeamish about removing them from the low berths!
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
Again, an Imperial (or other overall government agency) legal waiver will stand up in court unless someone can prove coercion. People lay in low berths for thousands of years. Starport facilities more than likely have facilities for everything involving the infrequent dead of a passenger. The waiver probably carries information for next of kin so a notice and valuables can be retrieved.
If a captain doesn't like low berths they are never installed or are removed and the space become cargo or state rooms. The captains in the ships around him will take those passengers. It's all legal and no starport security detail is going to put up with gun toting irritated bereaved nor will the courts.
Oh and pirates don't like dead hostages! They freeze them to make the cruise smooth and happy and know ransom isn't paid on the dead. Merchants are paid up front so have less to be concerned with.
If a captain doesn't like low berths they are never installed or are removed and the space become cargo or state rooms. The captains in the ships around him will take those passengers. It's all legal and no starport security detail is going to put up with gun toting irritated bereaved nor will the courts.
Oh and pirates don't like dead hostages! They freeze them to make the cruise smooth and happy and know ransom isn't paid on the dead. Merchants are paid up front so have less to be concerned with.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
"Doesn't matter how fast its falling, as there is nothing to crash into, as the atmosphere gets denser the fall will slow, even if it was a brick, past a certain point, it will sink like a ship in the ocean, rather than fall."
You forget one major GG quality, that atmosphere gets very dense very fast! Its not just a big world with a layer of air and a layer of ocean like Earth. Traveller ships are skimming the very topmost wisps of the atmosphere and it's still dense enough to collect efficiently. Going down lower subjects ships to ungodly winds that would easily engulf terrestrial worlds while the atmospheric pressure will crush a hull with little effort. Shortly after a lifeboat leaves the hanger and before it fires the engines, it's in the grip of Jovian gravity being pulled in fast as it's hull begins to creak and groan. You'll be a tight organic and metal ball long before you reach the metallic hydrogen 'ocean'.
Go stop at Bubu's Refined Fuel and Bait Shop on the mainworld, top off, rent a life boat and go fishin'.
You forget one major GG quality, that atmosphere gets very dense very fast! Its not just a big world with a layer of air and a layer of ocean like Earth. Traveller ships are skimming the very topmost wisps of the atmosphere and it's still dense enough to collect efficiently. Going down lower subjects ships to ungodly winds that would easily engulf terrestrial worlds while the atmospheric pressure will crush a hull with little effort. Shortly after a lifeboat leaves the hanger and before it fires the engines, it's in the grip of Jovian gravity being pulled in fast as it's hull begins to creak and groan. You'll be a tight organic and metal ball long before you reach the metallic hydrogen 'ocean'.
Go stop at Bubu's Refined Fuel and Bait Shop on the mainworld, top off, rent a life boat and go fishin'.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Infojunky said:
Um, NOPE. Not in Mgt. There is nothing to support that in the RAW. In FACT, in the CRB it is written that some ships can't land and take off without "elaborate launch facilities." You are confusing with another edition of the game. Unless, you can quote a rule from MONGOOSE Trav that says so.
Nice try though. There is a box of Rice-a-roni back stage for you.
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