Looking for advice: Planet invasion and high TL adventure/source books

[Condottiere]

Depends on what you're hoping to achieve.

The Vegan Autonomous District was set up as both a bulwark for the defence of the Solomani Rim, and as a black hole for the Confederation Navy.

I doubt the Confederation cares what happens to the Vegans, or their planets.

So I thought that if I had to deal with it, long range interdiction and strategic bombardment, and lure the Imperium Navy there, in an attempt to relieve/reinforce the Vegans.

If not, just keep them occupied, while the Sphere is reestablished around them, like Alesia.

 

[paltrysum]

It was the Vilani solution to all First Imperium problems.
And the Third did a pretty good job of continuing the tradition on Ilelish.

Nukes or the bargain-basement option: large rocks.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I disagree with that to a certain extent.

The mainworld is the whole point of the campaign... without it, you're just killing each other for rocks. And military history is absolutely full of campaigns where both sides lost because neither could fulfill their strategic goals. For just one example, the American Continental Army defeated the only super power on Earth just by staying in existence. Washington spent 5 solid years moving his army around to AVOID confronting the British save only at the place and time of his choosing, and he was VERY selective where and when he chose to fight. And every single one of his engagements, especially the big victories [Trenton, Monmouth, Saratoga, etc.], served to raise the legitimacy of his army and his cause.
And it is germane to note that the Vietnamese Army and Viet Cong did the exact same thing 200 years later...

In a Traveller sense, yes, winning the space battle is HUGE part of winning the world. But the enemy can still defeat you, even though you control orbital space, by denying you all the resources on that main world and by defeating your political purpose by just not getting conquered.

That load of historical revisionism again. The Amercian Continental Army would have been annihilated had it not been for the French, the French won the American War of Independence and it cost them so much it lead directly to the French Revolution.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You don't interdict from orbit, even geostationary.

You interdict beyond planetary weapon range but within the 100D limit.

The world could invest in building lots and lot and lots of missiles for an alpha strike to take out your interdiction fleet, or lots and lots of monitors. Best to get rid of their military industrial capability before you interdict...

 

[CordwainerFish]

Nukes or the bargain-basement option: large rocks.

"Throw rocks at them." - Mycroft Holmes

 

[ottarrus]

That load of historical revisionism again. The Amercian Continental Army would have been annihilated had it not been for the French, the French won the American War of Independence and it cost them so much it lead directly to the French Revolution.

I'm entirely aware of the French contribution to our War of Independence and I happily acknowledge their contributions, thank you. I'm entirely willing to remind some of my more MURCA! types that our independence is directly owed to the loan of French Adm de'Grasse's Atlantic Fleet for three weeks.
I wasn't speaking of the entire conduct of the War, only Washington's plans as regards to the British. Even Lafayette agreed in 1777-8 that it was too much to expect Continental troops to stand fire in a set-piece battle. Instead of engaging large British forces, Washington engaged them piecemeal and kept his army in being no matter its condition. This, in turn, showed the French that we were serious about this war and that lent validity to our cause at court.

 

[ottarrus]

Nukes or the bargain-basement option: large rocks.

And again I come back to the basic question:
What is the whole point of the war if you're just gonna destroy anything worth fight the war over? 'Dropping rocks from orbit' or nuking the place will eff up the world's ecosystem to the extent that neither party can use it for centuries after the conflict, on top of killing the population and destroying the factories, resource hubs, universities, and everything else that makes investing the system worth doing. That isn't 'conquest', that's not even breaking even. 'If I can't have it, nobody can have it' is a pretty stupid casus belli.

 

[MasterGwydion]

1. Mines /drones /whatever can and will be subverted if left unattended. If you have to have naval assets to tend the mines, why bother with mines at all?
2. Sure, FeNi rocks are nice to have, but at the end of the day the real treasure in a high-tech high-pop world is the educated workforce and the factories. If you don't kill them, that is.
3. You might kill the factories but you didn't kill the knowledge base. The survivors know how to build space technologies. And it's a lot of work but not that hard a concept to build factories underground and use geothermal taps to power them.

Last thing: von Clauswitz' adage 'Warfare is politics by other means' applies here. A complete victory for your forces is to not only take a high-tech high-pop world from your enemy but to win over that population and have them start fueling YOUR forces instead. Anything less is only a marginal victory. Another adage, 'A conventional army loses if it does not win. A guerilla /resistance army wins if it does not lose.' - - Henry Kissinger

1. A Minelayer/maintenance robot ship is way cheaper and easier to maintain than putting an actual fleet overt the planet.

System Defense Brick class Defense Drone - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

Quarter Hammer class Construction Drone - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

2. I disagree. People, even large groups of highly educated and technological people are a renewable resource in Traveller. (Cloning and creche training can pound out 18-year-olds every 18 months with 4 0-level skills ready to begin their careers.) FeNi rocks are non-renewable.
3. Still have to use them. What is the range on desitometers? Keep a log of potential sites, then blast them from orbit ever year or so when a ship with a Meson Spinal comes by on patrol.

 

[paltrysum]

And again I come back to the basic question:
What is the whole point of the war if you're just gonna destroy anything worth fight the war over? 'Dropping rocks from orbit' or nuking the place will eff up the world's ecosystem to the extent that neither party can use it for centuries after the conflict, on top of killing the population and destroying the factories, resource hubs, universities, and everything else that makes investing the system worth doing. That isn't 'conquest', that's not even breaking even. 'If I can't have it, nobody can have it' is a pretty stupid casus belli.

Totally agree, but sadly, not everyone else thinks that way. In the case of the Vilani, an empire roughly on par with the 3I in size and breadth, I believe they felt that making an example by glassing a world here or there would make the others fall into line.

 

[Condottiere]

Given enough time, you can (re)terraform a warzone.

If human colonization is a major objective.

It tends to come down to how much resources you want to expand on that.

If the place is considered a threat to your already existing colonies, temporarily, one less inhabitable world might not be considered an issue.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Hi all, I am interested in running an adventure dealing with a planetary invasion. Do you have suggestions which adventures or source books give background or rules for it? Also what would you recommend for descriptions or settings for high TL surroundings? Any adventures or source material for this? Thanks!

Cannot see if anyone has already mentioned, but The Fall of Tinath adventure, with technologically advanced minor races, might provide what you are looking for:

Mongoose 2nd: The Fall of Tinath - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

 

[rinku]

Totally agree, but sadly, not everyone else thinks that way. In the case of the Vilani, an empire roughly on par with the 3I in size and breadth, I believe they felt that making an example by glassing a world here or there would make the others fall into line.

But the more they tightened their grip, the more star systems slipped through their fingers.

So to speak.

 

[actionman]

Hi all, I am interested in running an adventure dealing with a planetary invasion.

What is the nature of the adventure?
Are the adventurers with the invasion? Are they defending against it? Or are they travellers caught in the middle of a war?

Classic Traveller

• The Traveller Adventure. Part of the campaign has the PC's caught in the middle of a war between two powers on a balkanized world, and then a mercenary attack.
• Double Aventure 6 Night of Conquest. The PC's are caught in an invasion of one planetary nation by another.

MegaTraveller

• Knightfall, scenario 2 Prisoners, pg. 24. This full page sidebar describes a planetary assault from orbit.
• Hard Times. This supplement offers a good overview the effects of war on planets and subsectors.

As for rules, I'd suggest these Traveller board games:

• Imperium
• Fifth Frontier War
• Invasion Earth

 

[actionman]

That would appear to be exceptional.

Since it was by being the Homeworld of Humanity, by extension sanctified, the Imperium couldn't glass it, and the Confederation would fight for every square inch of it, probably a lot more ground forces than mentioned were defending it, and were used to invade it.

Especially since the Imperial nobility considered themselves Solomani.

 

[Condottiere]

Quite a number of interstellar cultures had to have areas that are sacred to them.

I would guess Vland would be one of them.

Capital might not be.

 

[actionman]

Don't you dare touch those anolas.

 

[Geir]

And again I come back to the basic question:
What is the whole point of the war if you're just gonna destroy anything worth fight the war over? 'Dropping rocks from orbit' or nuking the place will eff up the world's ecosystem to the extent that neither party can use it for centuries after the conflict, on top of killing the population and destroying the factories, resource hubs, universities, and everything else that makes investing the system worth doing. That isn't 'conquest', that's not even breaking even. 'If I can't have it, nobody can have it' is a pretty stupid casus belli.

I think the Vilani philosophy, carried forward to the Third Imperium's Quarantine service and entirely unnecessary Omicron Division is "If it can possibly cause a potentially existential threat sometime in the future, best to illuminate the threat while it's manageable." It's not an economic discussion at all.

Maybe some instinctual-level response based on trying to survive on a world of random killing machines for a couple of hundred thousand years... an assumption that the universe is a dangerous place trying to kill you (a.k.a. the Dark Forest) so best to become the top predator yourself.

 

[CordwainerFish]

I think the Vilani philosophy, carried forward to the Third Imperium's Quarantine service and entirely unnecessary Omicron Division is "If it can possibly cause a potentially existential threat sometime in the future, best to illuminate the threat while it's manageable."

Roko's Biosphere.

 

[collins355]

I think the Vilani philosophy, carried forward to the Third Imperium's Quarantine service and entirely unnecessary Omicron Division is "If it can possibly cause a potentially existential threat sometime in the future, best to illuminate the threat while it's manageable." It's not an economic discussion at all.

Maybe some instinctual-level response based on trying to survive on a world of random killing machines for a couple of hundred thousand years... an assumption that the universe is a dangerous place trying to kill you (a.k.a. the Dark Forest) so best to become the top predator yourself.

Yes, this is the 'Hunters of the Dawn' philosophy explaining why SETI hasn't found anyone - an early emerging technological civilization prowls the galaxy wiping out any potential threats. Tipping a few large meteorites down the gravity well usually does the trick.
Arthur C Clarke mentions it in 'Fountains of Paradise'. Ian Douglas (aka Traveller artist William H Keith) uses it in his 'Galactic Marines' series.

 

[ottarrus]

I think the Vilani philosophy, carried forward to the Third Imperium's Quarantine service and entirely unnecessary Omicron Division is "If it can possibly cause a potentially existential threat sometime in the future, best to illuminate the threat while it's manageable." It's not an economic discussion at all.

Maybe some instinctual-level response based on trying to survive on a world of random killing machines for a couple of hundred thousand years... an assumption that the universe is a dangerous place trying to kill you (a.k.a. the Dark Forest) so best to become the top predator yourself.

I'm completely down with dealing with an existential threat a'la Agent of the Imperium. Where I part ways with many on the thread is the idea of scrubbing a world just for convenience's sake. The whole 'reintegrating this population is just too much work so I'll just blast this world down to the bedrock and recolonize with a properly indoctrinated and servile population 500 years' attitude.
'Yanks in Space' or whatever, that's not how the Imperium does business. At least since the Illelish Revolt anyway.