Looking for advice: Planet invasion and high TL adventure/source books

[MasterGwydion]

I mean, do you even need rules here? Rules are for PCs, really.

Unless you have a group of players who are funding construction of a base, just say that the fuel is above ground or below ground, and assign an armour value if required. Up to and including "your ship's lasers can't penetrate, but a missile might. Make a roll if you want to try."

Building a base is a major theme in Pirates of Drinax. So, there is that.

Also, I hate the point of view that the rules are only for PCs. If your game doesn't have rules for the rest of the universe, then it is not a game. It is a story that is entirely controlled by the Referee. If the NPCs difficulty to hit a PC is only 4+ while PCs need an 8+. Then it is BS. The game rules have to apply to everyone or they apply to no one. You can't worldbuild if the only rules you have are for PCs. It gives Me absolutely nothing as a Referee, except here is a blank piece of paper, white your own game because there are no rules for NPCs. No shipbuilding rules for non-PC-controlled ships, etc. If a Ref in a game defends against an attack by the party in a way that is not in the rules, then how can the PCs use the same tactic that was just used on them by the Ref? It is one of the reason the Trade rules drive Me so crazy. We have absolutely zero rules for how NPCs trade. How do I build a world that makes sense if I have no rules to do so? I would have to write My own system just to fit over the PC-centric system of Traveller. At that point, we might as well all write our own systems and stop buying Traveller. I love Traveller, but Traveller is not kind to worldbuilders.

Or, you know... Just make the rules as written apply to everyone, PCs and NPCs alike. Problem fixed.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Now that I think about this more, @Terry Mixon, you may have been wrong to point out the Mongoose that their ships in the new book were not built by the rules. They don't have to be, they are for NPC use. (sarcasm)

 

[rinku]

Okay, but I've BEEN there and it's a massive amount of effort for pretty much zero return to work out this stuff.

What's the cost of a space station? If I need it - that is, there's a campaign reason where the maintenance cost matters - sure. I can work that out. For most purposes it's just enough to determine a size, hull armour, what guns and facilities it has and sketch out some people that are going to be used.

Starport fuel storage? Well, seems to me it could be extremely well protected, or barely protected, and it's a time and cost matter for the folks building it. Enough concrete, rock or steel will keep it safe from any particular hazard that's expected. Turret weapons and exploding ships would be a fair concern, so maybe 20 points of starship scale armour worth of planetary crust and tankage, 10 points if they're on a tight budget or not expecting trouble?

How long did it take to construct, 50 years ago? Don't care.

How much did it cost? Not my problem.

How much maintenance does it need? Not my budget.

If it's well maintained or poorly maintained, that's a referee fiat anyway, unless PCs are the ones doing the maintaining and making those decisions.

 

[Arkathan]

Drinax Companion starting on page 79

Underground is 2000Cr per ton.
Above Ground is 10,500 per ton.
You can armor either based on the reduced percentage of cost for it being a non-ship structure.

 

[rinku]

Any discussion about inherent armour if the tank is located deeper underground?

 

[CordwainerFish]

What's the cost of a space station?

"A bloody lot. Next question? And please, please try to make it adventurey."

 

[Condottiere]

Rules are to level the ground, and reflect how the universe, supposedly, functions.

Most starports and spacestations are sunk costs, relative to the player characters.

If they don't have to pay for them, either construction or maintenance, it wouldn't matter.

But, then they have a fender bender with one, or find that they are expected to expand and/or defend one.

Then you probably need to know how much it's going to cost you.

 

[rinku]

Once the numbers get big enough they're just background colour.

Cost of a light cruiser vs a dreadnaught from the point of view of an itinerant starship engineer? Same cost.

And that applies equally to a PC or an NPC one.

 

[Arkathan]

Any discussion about inherent armour if the tank is located deeper underground?

I don't recall, but you could always use planetoid and buffered planetoid as examples.
Fairly deep, planetoid. Really deep, buffered.

 

[Condottiere]

Material might differ.

If the assumption is that default planetoid has a nickel iron shell.

 

[Endie]

I'm completely down with dealing with an existential threat a'la Agent of the Imperium. Where I part ways with many on the thread is the idea of scrubbing a world just for convenience's sake. The whole 'reintegrating this population is just too much work so I'll just blast this world down to the bedrock and recolonize with a properly indoctrinated and servile population 500 years' attitude.
'Yanks in Space' or whatever, that's not how the Imperium does business. At least since the Illelish Revolt anyway.

Do you part ways because you think it wouldn’t happen? That’s just wrong since canonically it does: look at planets across the Trojan Reach as an obvious example of the practises of both human and Alan empires, or the Illelish campaign as another by the Imperium.

Or are you simply asserting that it’s morally unsustainable? In which case you’re entitled to your view but the Emperor reserves his right to disagree.

As asides:

- there are not 8 trillion people on earth and if there were we could not feed them
- and the examples you gave of two sides failing to win because neither could achieve their strategic goals were both of conflicts in which one side did win precisely by achieving their strategic goals. In both cases by use of Fabian strategy.

 

[ottarrus]

Do you part ways because you think it wouldn’t happen? That’s just wrong since canonically it does: look at planets across the Trojan Reach as an obvious example of the practises of both human and Alan empires, or the Illelish campaign as another by the Imperium.

Or are you simply asserting that it’s morally unsustainable? In which case you’re entitled to your view but the Emperor reserves his right to disagree.

As asides:

- there are not 8 trillion people on earth and if there were we could not feed them
- and the examples you gave of two sides failing to win because neither could achieve their strategic goals were both of conflicts in which one side did win precisely by achieving their strategic goals. In both cases by use of Fabian strategy.

OK, I'm using Agent of the Imperium as a basis for my argument. In the book, MWM treats the destruction of a biosphere as a major issue and a decision that is not taken trivially. Yes, the Imperium is capable of nuking a world or tipping an asteroid or constructing deadfall munitions and utterly devastating a planet, but this tactic is the last and worst resort which is only to be used in the most desperate of circumstances. Insofar as 'canon' goes, we can count on the worlds that have been intentionally 'glassed' on two hands.
Since this is Marc Miller's own take on the situation, I've taken that as gospel.

There are indeed 8 trillion people on Earth at this moment. I looked that figure up and every website that I consulted agrees with that figure. As an example, one I checked was https://worldpopulationreview.com/ .
Yes, we COULD feed 8 trillion people but that would require making food distribution a world wide priority rather than weaponizing starvation as we do now. It would further require massive changes in diet for the vast majority of humanity, especially in the bottom 25% of the world's population. Rice would likely replace wheat, soybeans would likely replace most meat, etc. These would be difficult changes, but we could do it if the willpower to do so was there. However, there is the difficult to refute argument that all this effort would do is increase the overcrowding on a planet that is running out of room as it is.
My definition of 'victory' does not include area denial. 'If I can't have it, nobody can have it' is a last resort strategy when conventional victory is impossible.

 

[Nelphine]

That's 8 billion, not trillion

 

[Nelphine]

And I would glass a planet if and only if there significant military assets on the planet, that I couldn't control. For instance factories capable of producing a significant fleet (significant meaning big enough that I would need to noticeably reduce my chances of overall winning the war in order to picket the sysyem) , and I could neither control nor destroy only those factories (for instance if they were deep underground and protected by crazy meson bay defenses, and I couldn't mount a ground force large enough to take them.)

Even them, I'd inform the entire population of the world why I had to glass the world, then I'd do it piecemeal to give the population time to resolve it before I did, and I'd inform the worlds superiors off world to try to get them to order a surrender.

My hope is that my opponent would never have such a world, and if they did, that they would be willing to surrender, at least until peace terms could be agreed upon after the war.

Failing that my second hope is that all such worlds could be accounted for prior to the war so that appropriate fleets could be designed to picket the system without impacting the chance to win the war.

 

[Sigtrygg]

1,000,000 or one million, 1x10⁶, mega...
1,000,000,000 or one billion, 1x10⁹, giga...
1,000,000,000,000 or one trillion, 1x10¹², tera...
current population of the Earth is 8,213,269,530 or 8.213 1x10⁹
that is eight billion, two hundred and thirteen million, two hundred and sixty nine thousand, five hundred and thirty.

Billion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Trillion - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Arkathan]

It would further require massive changes in diet for the vast majority of humanity, especially in the bottom 25% of the world's population. Rice would likely replace wheat, soybeans would likely replace most meat, etc.

Soybeans are a death sentence for millions of people.
Allergies. Not great for gut health either. Farmers feeding soy to cows dope it with antacids to control heartburn, but that in turn messes up gut health, which adversely affects overall health.
The answer is fusion power and the agricultural arcologies it allows to exist

 

[ottarrus]

Soybeans are a death sentence for millions of people.
Allergies. Not great for gut health either. Farmers feeding soy to cows dope it with antacids to control heartburn, but that in turn messes up gut health, which adversely affects overall health.
The answer is fusion power and the agricultural arcologies it allows to exist

I was speaking in generalities, Ark. I'm only saying it's possible, not that it's the first choice or that there wouldn't be problems. What's more, I'm using only currently fielded technology as my basis... 'what we could do tomorrow if we had the political will to do it'.
As for fusion power, insofar as I know, there have been just two 'successful' fusion experiments. Success in the fusion experiments has been described as a controlled fusion reaction that produces significantly more power than it costs to ignite the reaction. Like it or not, Earth remains at TL 8.25
As for arcologies, the tallest building in the world is the Burj Khalifa in the UAE. It sways as much as 8 ft. in strong winds. While I'm not gonna call that 'unsafe', I will say we are still a long way from an actual self-sustaining arcology.

 

[Condottiere]

There are a variety of considerations, which would effect decisions militarily, politically, diplomatically, economically, and so on.

The basic ones are how much strategic value the planet has in holding it, and how much military threat it represents if you bypass it.

 

[Arkathan]

I was speaking in generalities, Ark. I'm only saying it's possible, not that it's the first choice or that there wouldn't be problems. What's more, I'm using only currently fielded technology as my basis... 'what we could do tomorrow if we had the political will to do it'.
As for fusion power, insofar as I know, there have been just two 'successful' fusion experiments. Success in the fusion experiments has been described as a controlled fusion reaction that produces significantly more power than it costs to ignite the reaction. Like it or not, Earth remains at TL 8.25
As for arcologies, the tallest building in the world is the Burj Khalifa in the UAE. It sways as much as 8 ft. in strong winds. While I'm not gonna call that 'unsafe', I will say we are still a long way from an actual self-sustaining arcology.

Wasn't an attack. Just pointing out the consequences, because there ARE people today who want to replace everything with soy or other beans/peas - or alternate "foods" with a high risk of allergic reactions if not carefully processed, sometimes without telling people about it. If you are allergic to peanuts, you are at risk from every legume, and the risk of catastrophe increases with time and quantity of exposure.

For arcologies, we can start small and work our way up. No need to go WH40K Armageddon or Shadow Run.
Several city blocks and no more than ordinary high rises in height, but every floor devoted to hydro/aquaponics. (Yes, I know that isn't a REAL arcology without shops and housing, but accommodations, dining and shopping for the farm COULD all be contained in a single high rise on a quarter of a block.)

 

[ottarrus]

Wasn't an attack. Just pointing out the consequences, because there ARE people today who want to replace everything with soy or other beans/peas - or alternate "foods" with a high risk of allergic reactions if not carefully processed, sometimes without telling people about it. If you are allergic to peanuts, you are at risk from every legume, and the risk of catastrophe increases with time and quantity of exposure.

For arcologies, we can start small and work our way up. No need to go WH40K Armageddon or Shadow Run.
Several city blocks and no more than ordinary high rises in height, but every floor devoted to hydro/aquaponics. (Yes, I know that isn't a REAL arcology without shops and housing, but accommodations, dining and shopping for the farm COULD all be contained in a single high rise on a quarter of a block.)

No offense taken, Ark. I was just replying with my logic.