Longevity

Epicenter said:
The most likely reason that people become Travellers in such a society is that you're 100 years old. You still have a good 50-75 years ahead of you. You're sitting on piles of money (those 1.25% interest bonds are cashing out) and frankly don't have to work for another day for the rest of your life (and "rest of your life" is longer than most of us live today). You're growing restless. You've had three or four different careers in your lifetime up to now. You're fed up with the employment rat race so you need something else to give meaning to your life.

Well, assuming you were a person who planned ahead. Just like today when there are people in their 50s with no retirement planning and haven't saved a dime for their future, I assume there will be people in similar situations in the 2340s when Clement Sector is set.

But what you are saying there was exactly our thought when we were designing Clement Sector. It was our thought that these people would be the "travellers", the colonists, the explorers and even the pirates of our setting.
 
Star Trek allows compartmentalization of these issues.

The way I imagine Elves handling longevity, is that they follow a path for some time, accumulate experience and resources, and then move onto something new, like raising a kid, using up aforesaid resources, then having packed them off to college, start a new career.
 
The fact that longevity is so expensive will mean that those who obtain it will be a limited group.

The average citizen simply cannot earn enough to support a decent lifestyle and have a steady supply of longevity drugs.

Furthermore the fact that you have a bunch of rich people and important politicians who are eternally young (or at least until something goes wrong and they can't get the drugs or can't afford them anymore.) also means that less and less people get upwards mobility in social classes and wealth.

I mean, when the management of your company will never retire it means there will be less openings in the higher positions (apart from people being fired or dying of accidents/murders) and the same goes for politics.

And since those ever-young bosses will have decades or even centuries of experience so getting past them will be a lot more difficult for the average person.

If you're lucky you might be born into a wealthy family and get an unfair advantage and some longevity drugs yourself but otherwise you need a lot of luck to ever be wealthy enough to afford the drugs.

Basically I am taking a lot of cues from how vampire dynasties are handled in other settings.
 
Cuba and the rise of Fidel Castro comes to mind.
Unless the "Eternal 1%" operates a "1984" police state, I can see a lot of pressure for a serious class war.
 
Askold said:
The fact that longevity is so expensive will mean that those who obtain it will be a limited group
Which is why it is so expensive, and usually illegal - though the fine one faces for possession is a slap on the write for the megarich, and most of the time the megarich just skate such trivial crimes.

This sets my class warrior's teeth on edge, and in response I'd set a world somewhere in the setting where the humans possess a natural longevity that would be the envy of the rich with their normal lifespans. A strain of humans that seems particularly resilient to the usual dirty tricks the rich would throw at them to try and control them, extract their DNA or simply to keep them penned in or try and obliterate their planet and the species.
 
I've never played an adventurer yet in Traveller. Doesn't make sense to. Stuff just happens to characters. Watch any movie and see. Anything else is just a terrible film.
 
If successful revolutions have thought us anything, the mob usually wins with the assistance or acquiescence of the military.
 
Askold said:
The fact that longevity is so expensive will mean that those who obtain it will be a limited group.

Why would it be expensive? Resources are nothing, so the greatest investment for profit is the citizen, this really has always been true. Longevity will pay for itself, esp in a revenue based system.
 
dragoner said:
Askold said:
The fact that longevity is so expensive will mean that those who obtain it will be a limited group.

Why would it be expensive? Resources are nothing, so the greatest investment for profit is the citizen, this really has always been true. Longevity will pay for itself, esp in a revenue based system.

According to core rules Anagathics cost 2000 Credits per month and you need a constant supply. If your Traveller universe has them more affordable then that is a different matter but considering that 2kCr is about as much as many jobs pay per month not everyone can afford them per core rules.
 
Askold said:
dragoner said:
Askold said:
The fact that longevity is so expensive will mean that those who obtain it will be a limited group.

Why would it be expensive? Resources are nothing, so the greatest investment for profit is the citizen, this really has always been true. Longevity will pay for itself, esp in a revenue based system.

According to core rules Anagathics cost 2000 Credits per month and you need a constant supply. If your Traveller universe has them more affordable then that is a different matter but considering that 2kCr is about as much as many jobs pay per month not everyone can afford them per core rules.

Ah, one reason I said it breaks the OTU paradigm in the OP. In game anagathics are weird, like harvesting a tree-kraken liver or something? What? How does that work? Always somewhat nonsensical.
 
Askold said:
The fact that longevity is so expensive will mean that those who obtain it will be a limited group.

dragoner said:
Why would it be expensive? Resources are nothing, so the greatest investment for profit is the citizen, this really has always been true. Longevity will pay for itself, esp in a revenue based system.


I'd always imagined that Anagathics is influenced by works like Dune where it's extremely expensive and something of an El Dorado for people to look for.

However, the problem with that is that technologies like fusion open ... all kinds of doors.

There'd should be no unobtainium at the TLs that Traveller would occur at.

It's a universe where the Imperium makes tanks out of partially-collapsed matter and that's available at TL12 and is more dense than white dwarf matter. Usually the reason why commodities become commodities is that it is impossible to make.

By Traveller tech-levels, commodities are commodities because of some emotional cachet or because it's cheaper to mine/gather it instead of make it via fusion alchemy.

Emotion cachet would be like "real" gemstones - I don't think there's a gemstone that exists that we can't make synthetically for quite cheaply even in our TL8 present. Another example might be "authentic" wine from some vineyard or another. With "cheap, limitless fusion power" which is the cornerstone of Traveller, making gemstones would be extremely cheap. You should be able to fashion diamonds for a few pennies per kilogram by TL12 with fusion power everything.

Cheaper to gather vs. fusion alchemy is a case where gravity control + fusion should allow you to be able to make any most elements in industrial quantities. The only reason why this doesn't happen is because because it's simply too much energy to be economical to alchemy it up instead of just gathering it - for instance, making iron from hydrogen in a "supernova furnace" probably simply wouldn't be worth the time, but I'd imagine the "fusion gold reactors" or something might exist in the Traveller high TL worlds with the news talking about how "the price of gold has been rising to 20cr per kilogram, but it's thought that the price will remain stable as the alchemical reactors don't see the profits as sufficient."

With complex molecules like anagathics (presumably they're collections of complex molecules) fashioning them might be expensive at first, but between gravity control and fusion to provide energy inputs, I find it pretty unbelievable that it'd be so expensive. Any company that can do it has to realize it's literally printing money. Then the capitalist nature of the Traveller universe should kick in - even the dimmest capitalist in the Imperium has to realize that lowering the price point of anagathics will rake in vastly more money simply by the nature of economies of scale and almost geometric increases in your customerbase for every few credits you can shave off of the price. Once one company or organization does it, others would do it - in the decentralized nature of the Imperium, copyright law has to nearly be impossible to enforce. Even if, let's say, the TL for making Anagathics is 16 (I think it is or is it 15?) there are TL16 worlds in the Imperium.

Then there's the other side: Even if these worlds created an "Anagathics Mafia" of high TL worlds ... people would go to war and kill for eternal youth TL16 isn't so much better than TL15 (or even TL14) that a single world could hold out for long. I think it's fair to say it's been the dream of eternal youth and immortality has been the soul of humanity's desires for longer than recorded history; it's the cornerstone of practically every religion. One of these worlds could be bribed, conquered, or even coerced (it might just be some world of TL16 philosophers might just tell the savages the secret just to get them to leave them alone "here, here's how you do it, yes yes it works, we want you to leave us alone, why would we lie to you and make you come back? Yes yes if it doesn't work come back and ask us, but just go away!"). I just don't think anagathics would be as expensive as they are in Traveller for very long.

It'd even be in the interest of the Imperium and the worlds to do it. If only a few worlds have anagathics and others don't, and those that have it aren't willing to share - at best you have mass migrations. Everyone would pick up and move to the worlds that have it. Sectors would literally get depopulated. It isn't feasible for everyone to live on those worlds, so there'd be wars. It'd be in the interest of the Imperium to distribute it better.
 
Epicenter said:
However, the problem with that is that technologies like fusion open ... all kinds of doors.

You have summed up my feelings about anagathics for the last 30 years or so, and the science, social, and political issues that have never been dealt with. Most likely why I've never included them in the games I've ref'd, the simple solution to longevity I proposed in the op pretty much hand waves it all away.
 
Economically, being healthy and unlikely to experience the normal ageing process will cut a lot of social net spending, because there's little excuse for not going out and earning your keep.

On the other hand, it may make it stagnate, since part of the reason for that wild consumerism is the feeling of mortality and short term planning.
 
To be honest, my largest issue with the whole idea of Longevity is not the economic or social issues it raises. The real problem I have seen in the games where people are allowed to live longer is the game mechanics. The game was not designed to cover characters who are 300 years old and have skill levels and skill numbers this would allow. The game was not designed for a 12+ term starting character. I just don't want to run a 5 term Marine, 5 term Merchant, 7 term Drifter that is still at their prime.

So while I think anagathics make for a great plot devise once in a while, they just are more trouble than they are worth.

Just my opinion. :mrgreen:
 
Which is why I set the max number of skills as the sum of int and edu.

In the current game I've not got players being forced to make the choice of what to forget but if we play long enough, it will happen.

In the end tho, if you have uber characters then the difficulty levels just go up and balance is reset there. The GM sets the stage and the stage simply ups its game to mean that the players are still challenged.

I understand how we would see people in their 30s as the optimum of youth and experience, strength and knowledge so to speak but we can reimagine that for a future setting.

It is a game changer tho, literally and perhaps not ideally suited to the traditional 3rd Imperium free trader style game.
 
Condottiere said:
On the other hand, it may make it stagnate, since part of the reason for that wild consumerism is the feeling of mortality and short term planning.
I doubt that - at least if the tech allows people to remain physically young. My guess is that people look and feel like they are in their 20s, they'll be just as energetic, and while they'll have more experience, and (in some, but far from all) cases will be more careful, they'll be roughly as passionate and daring. OTOH, stagnation is far more likely if you end up with people living for centuries looking and feeling like they are in their 50s or 60s.
 
heron61 said:
Condottiere said:
On the other hand, it may make it stagnate, since part of the reason for that wild consumerism is the feeling of mortality and short term planning.
I doubt that - at least if the tech allows people to remain physically young. My guess is that people look and feel like they are in their 20s, they'll be just as energetic, and while they'll have more experience, and (in some, but far from all) cases will be more careful, they'll be roughly as passionate and daring. OTOH, stagnation is far more likely if you end up with people living for centuries looking and feeling like they are in their 50s or 60s.

Heron, that was our thought as well for Clement Sector. While some will listen more to that inner voice that says "Don't do that. Remember the last time.", I'd say the youthfulness will override some of that as it does among the youthful in our century and past ones.
 
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