JTAS 14 Finding Immortality

[Vormaerin]

To put it a bit harshly, Marc's books and the T5 rules are full of interesting concepts. But they are flat out a significant revision of the setting. If Geir had added that stuff to a Mongoose book instead of Marc doing so in his novel, the screams from the old guard would be resounding from the rafters.

Sticky flat out rules that world by virtue of being the Imperial noble and his citizens are functionally slaves (serfs). Wafer jacks are everywhere, even without personality transfer. If there's an engineering emergency, someone slots the "Legendary Engineer Scotty" chip to try to fix it. Apparently the Vilani afterlife is an actual place that chipped personalities can visit and get info from to take back to the real world? Or the Agent hallucinates a lot to good effect. The Imperium is so organized that you can just ship someone in cold sleep from the core to the fringe and actually expect them to arrive. There's no FTL communication. How the heck are they making 40+ connections to do that? Those guys weren't waking up at each stop.

And T5 has even more weirdness with their cloned immortality that seriously screws up the whole Rebellion story arc, not to mention undercuts the whole "nobles don't use anagathics because longevity is gauche" thing the 3I has going. And what the heck is with the idea that a Nobility raised on military service finds "personal combat skill" to be "uncouth" and not to be mentioned in polite company? (Fighter is a "Forbidden Knowledge").

YMMV, but my rule of thumb on cross platform media is that its original purpose is the primary source. Charted Space is a game setting first and foremost. If there's a conflict between a game's sourcebooks and a novel based on the game, the novel is the variant part. If the game is based on the novel, the game would be wrong.

None of this (other than the Fighter thing, maybe ) is a critique of those ideas. But that material in T5 and the novel are the ATU, not the CT/MT/MgT2e materials that are pretty consistent with each other on these matters. To the extent that that matters, which is not very much. If Mongoose wants to revamp Charted Space game materials to actually use those T5 concepts in the setting, that's fine. But they are not, imho, under any obligation to do so.

 

[agentwigggles]

B

But it is ok to conjure personal energy screens out of thin air and require their retrofitting to TL14 ships and vehicles?

Limiting it to TL14 and 15 cultures and worlds - the Imperial Core worlds and the TL15 powerhouses in the frontier sectors.

Thing is MT showed that the Imperium already has many TL16 worlds by 1120.

Everything is conjured out of thin air.
This is a speculative fiction setting.
While real life experiences and history can try to ground and inspire, its all made up bullshit.

And for what its worth, it doesnt need to retrofit anything. Its pretty neat capable armor for ground troops. Doesnt have a vehicle scale or spaceship scale variant. Not everything does. Not everything needs to.
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As an aside, its fairly clear to me that Mongoose is in the process of owning Traveller IP outright. Thats the only thing that make sense with the older edition being purchasable inside the Mongoose store. Mark Miller is getting older. Traveller has to be passed onto a new Company, or be passed onto Miller inheritors where it may and probabbly get shoved in a metapghorical closet. Traveller dies when Mongoose liencse expires. Even if Miller wanted to be a superior position to Mongoose Traveller lore wise or anything wise, that is a soon to be eroding position he will have.
I would bet hard money that Mongoose is going to own Traveller if they are not buying Far Future Enterprise in whole.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If we have to play T5 in order to play Traveller correctly, you can definitely put me in the "guess this an ATU then" camp.

Correction, to play in the OTU. Traveller is not one setting.

 

[Sigtrygg]

To put it a bit harshly, Marc's books and the T5 rules are full of interesting concepts. But they are flat out a significant revision of the setting. If Geir had added that stuff to a Mongoose book instead of Marc doing so in his novel, the screams from the old guard would be resounding from the rafters.

But it is now his setting.
I was incredible annoyed by the retcon to the Empress Wave, but I just have to accept it - or ignore it for my game. Guess which I do,

The Imperium is so organized that you can just ship someone in cold sleep from the core to the fringe and actually expect them to arrive. There's no FTL communication. How the heck are they making 40+ connections to do that? Those guys weren't waking up at each stop.

That's what they are doing with the colonists for the Forboldn project and that dates back to 1979.

And T5 has even more weirdness with their cloned immortality that seriously screws up the whole Rebellion story arc, not to mention undercuts the whole "nobles don't use anagathics because longevity is gauche" thing the 3I has going. And what the heck is with the idea that a Nobility raised on military service finds "personal combat skill" to be "uncouth" and not to be mentioned in polite company? (Fighter is a "Forbidden Knowledge").

I consider T5 to still be a work in progress lol, not enough people have ever played it to notice things like this

YMMV, but my rule of thumb on cross platform media is that its original purpose is the primary source. Charted Space is a game setting first and foremost. If there's a conflict between a game's sourcebooks and a novel based on the game, the novel is the variant part. If the game is based on the novel, the game would be wrong.

Oh I agree on the primacy of the source material.
Rule 1 CT trumps everything. 2 MT trumps everything not covered by rule 1. 3 TNE trumps everything not covered by rules 1&2
So when MgT authors come along and decide Aslan are nine feet tall, based on the Kilrathi and Kzinti, take slaves and eat sophonts I apply rule 1.

None of this (other than the Fighter thing, maybe ) is a critique of those ideas. But that material in T5 and the novel are the ATU, not the CT/MT/MgT2e materials that are pretty consistent with each other on these matters. To the extent that that matters, which is not very much. If Mongoose wants to revamp Charted Space game materials to actually use those T5 concepts in the setting, that's fine. But they are not, imho, under any obligation to do so.

I'd rather they went the T5 route than add yet another Star Wars or Dune trope (other than those already there in CT )

 

[Sigtrygg]

Everything is conjured out of thin air.
This is a speculative fiction setting.
While real life experiences and history can try to ground and inspire, its all made up bullshit.

True, but even Marc is bound by canon, which MgT authors appear to be able to ignore on a whim.

And for what its worth, it doesnt need to retrofit anything. Its pretty neat capable armor for ground troops. Doesnt have a vehicle scale or spaceship scale variant. Not everything does. Not everything needs to.
------

So a personal energy screen can't be scaled up to vehicle scale or ship scale? I smell bovine excrement. Everything needs to be consistent.

As an aside, its fairly clear to me that Mongoose is in the process of owning Traveller IP outright. Thats the only thing that make sense with the older edition being purchasable inside the Mongoose store. Mark Miller is getting older. Traveller has to be passed onto a new Company, or be passed onto Miller inheritors where it may and probabbly get shoved in a metapghorical closet. Traveller dies when Mongoose liencse expires. Even if Miller wanted to be a superior position to Mongoose Traveller lore wise or anything wise, that is a soon to be eroding position he will have.
I would bet hard money that Mongoose is going to own Traveller if they are not buying Far Future Enterprise in whole.

Do you have any inside knowledge or actual evidence for this claim?

 

[Terry Mixon]

As an aside, its fairly clear to me that Mongoose is in the process of owning Traveller IP outright. Thats the only thing that make sense with the older edition being purchasable inside the Mongoose store. Mark Miller is getting older. Traveller has to be passed onto a new Company, or be passed onto Miller inheritors where it may and probabbly get shoved in a metapghorical closet. Traveller dies when Mongoose liencse expires. Even if Miller wanted to be a superior position to Mongoose Traveller lore wise or anything wise, that is a soon to be eroding position he will have.
I would bet hard money that Mongoose is going to own Traveller if they are not buying Far Future Enterprise in whole.

That's far better than it dying. Marc could carve out an exception for his T5 setting and the rest could be Mongoose.

 

[agentwigggles]

Re T5: T5 is not a work in progress. How many years has it been since anything was officially released for it? Though if actual release publication isnt a requirement. I consider T20 a work in progress. Crossing my fingers for DnD 5e release anyday now.


Re Energy Shielding: There lots of things that dont scale either way. Like Black Shields. Tank Armor. Psionics. The vehicle that that shocks the outside of the vehicle. Jump engines.

RE Ownership transfer: Yea. Mongoose is selling Far Future Industries publication on their personale store page. Mongoose personal store, isnt an open market platform like DriveThroughRPG. they have to be getting a cut. An the price points on those books isnt that large, so I imagine to make it worth the manhours to set it up on the store, I bet its most of it if not all of it. Mongoose isnt a charity. Those are low traffic items. Most of that catalog wont move units. If its not leading to, or part of something larger, its a waste a money.

 

[Vormaerin]

But it is now his setting.

He's clearly not 'bound by canon' if he can totally upend the whole thing with a novel.

Anyway, i don't have any reason to think that MARC thinks he is dictating the course of Charted Space that Mongoose has to follow. But that's between Marc and Matt and has nothing to do with us.

Poor Matt if Mongoose is obliged to somehow make both T5 concepts and MT storylines mesh up.

 

[Vormaerin]

Re T5: T5 is not a work in progress. How many years has it been since anything was officially released for it? Though if actual release publication isnt a requirement. I consider T20 a work in progress. Crossing my fingers for DnD 5e release anyday now.


Re Energy Shielding: There lots of things that dont scale either way. Like Black Shields. Tank Armor. Psionics. The vehicle that that shocks the outside of the vehicle. Jump engines.

RE Ownership transfer: Yea. Mongoose is selling Far Future Industries publication on their personale store page. Mongoose personal store, isnt an open market platform like DriveThroughRPG. they have to be getting a cut. An the price points on those books isnt that large, so I imagine to make it worth the manhours to set it up on the store, I bet its most of it if not all of it. Mongoose isnt a charity. Those are low traffic items. Most of that catalog wont move units. If its not leading to, or part of something larger, its a waste a money.

lolwut? DTRPG takes a major cut of everything sold. I'm sure Mongoose has a sensible business arrangement with FFE. And it's pdfs that already existed. There's some amount of work to upload them to the store, but its not like that's a continuing cost.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It would be nice if MgT Third Imperium meshed with CT Third Imperium; the differences grow supplement by supplement, mostly for the better, but often with yet more unintended consequences.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Given the choice of supporting Mongoose or supporting Drivethru when buying Traveller pdfs I will be getting them from Mongoose.
But.
Drivethru offers pod on many items
Drivethru offers CT facsimile edition for free
The FFE cds/USB drives are much better value for money.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I like personal energy shields and having rules for them.
I like having wafer tech and the rules for downloading/uploading personalities and potential immortality.
I like having gravitics be an underlying tech that can handwave away most things.
I like having rules for dogfighting in space.
I like having cyberware, biological augments, genetic engineering.

Do they all fit in the CT Third Imperium? What about the rest of the galaxy?

I like stutterwarp, jumpdrive, stargates. folding space, warp drive, hyperdrives.
I like reaction engines and antimatter rockets.

Do all these fit in the Third Imperium? What about the rest of the galaxy?

I like alien aliens, I like artificial machine intelligence, I like uplifted aliens, I like variant human races, I like almost human aliens.

Do all these fit in the Third Imperium? What about the rest of the galaxy?

I want Mongoose Traveller to give me all that, and more - psionics, entities from alternate dimensions... thermodynamics (ok that's going a bit too far)

I can then decide what fits my Third Imperium, what doesn't. What belongs in the rest of the galaxy, what doesn't.

I remember CT adventures, they were so generic they could have been set anywhere, PCs were usually ex-army, ex-scout, ex-navy, ex-marine, ex-merchant.
They were not ex-Navy seal, ex-Jonn Wick, ex-cyborg assassin... ordinary people who find adventure by accident or design.

Are there nobles with insurance policies? Who cares, I will never see MCr1 to buy it, are there augmented Imperial assassins, yup, but if one comes after me I am dead... unless... nah it would never work...

 

[Vormaerin]

We agree on that. More stuff covered in the rules the better. The more clear separation between the Core Rules and the specific settings the better. Heck, having more settings with support is better. Most stuff I can pick and choose from is better. One of the nice things about FF&S was how much alternate tech it had rules for.

I will point out that this particular statement: "Are there nobles with insurance policies? Who cares, I will never see MCr1 to buy it, are there augmented Imperial assassins, yup, but if one comes after me I am dead... unless... nah it would never work..." overlooks the fact that T5's vision of things makes all of that quite a bit more widespread. That's why I want it left as a toolkit for building stuff, not taken as a blueprint for the Third Imperium that must be followed by authors.

Many characters have a reasonable chance to muster out with life insurance. Army, Navy, Marine, and "Functionary" officers can get it. Scouts & Agents might be able to get it. Any Rogue or Merchant character has a chance to get it. Nobles actually have a fairly difficult chance of getting it as a mustering out benefit, oddly enough. Just an observation.

 

[Alqualonde]

A tAS membership costs 1MCr too. I don't see why Life Insurance can't be chosen instead of the TAS membership.
But how convenient will it be for a Traveller to use it ?
You'll need to send back proof of death (and maybe body in a good state for the last, up to date, scan) to the life insurance company..
If your new body is already waiting for you, it can be prepared quickly, but at a specific place (woe to you if it is at Capital, Core and you where adventuring in the Spinward Marches).
If your new body has to be grown, you'll need a DNA sample & scan at the place of growth. How long will you be out & will your fellow Travellers wait for a few weeks/months for the new you ?
If you can't get an up to date brain scan, you'll loose memory, skills, etc gained since last scan.

I recommend you to read the Commonwealth saga from Peter F. Hamilton (Pandora Star & Judas Unchained) for how such tech might work. Tech is a bit too different from 3rd Imperium, but there might be a few ideas to poach.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's worth revisiting this.
TL 12 - personality recording and editing - this is destructive
TL 13 - cloning, forced growth, wafer technology, wafer jack, wafer headset
TL 14 - temporary personality transfer - every week you have to re-upload your personality - brainscans are still destructive.
TL 15 - mindwipe and editing, pattern personality transfer - brainscans are no longer destructive and your personality can be permanently downloaded to a clone of your brain.
TL 17 - permanent personality transfer - personalities can take over a host permanently

The technique used on Bland is thus a TL12 brainscan and experimental TL14 personality uploading.

So destructive scans at TL12.
A temporary personality transfer (Agent of the Imperium) TL14 (Bland et al are experimental/prototype)
Non-destructive at TL14 - immortality but at a price - every week you have to re-upload your personality to your clone, failure to do so results in a mindwipe (this is how I think the Essaray do it)
Cloning and transferring the personality permanently TL15 - could bland be resurrected from his finger?
Altered Carbon/Eclipse Phase at TL17

Also note that electronic personality transfer is one of the ways one of the first starfarer races that pre-dated the Ancients travelled from world to world.

 

[Vormaerin]

But how convenient will it be for a Traveller to use it ?

Depends on the nature of your campaign. If it is a wander far and wide game, obviously it is a bit of a challenge. But if your game generally stays within a subsector, not a big deal. As far as the updates go, T5 says that the scans themselves can be done by an autodoc, so as long as the PCs have one on their ship. Actually force growing a clone takes about 18 weeks. If someone has the appropriate skills, the equipment to do that could even by kept on the ship (the clone growing device is only a 1 ton machine, though it's quite expensive (MCr1) and/or keeping clones of everyone in a medical low berth.

There's assorted complications like stats not being identical or augments not included. And the RP issues of any lost memories. Traveller isn't a game where characters get skills quickly, so probably wouldn't have much lost there.

It isn't Altered Carbon/Eclipse Phase level where you can just go on suicide missions and resleeve easily afterward. But it very definitely puts a Traveller campaign into the D&D realm of a game with viable rez. It is expensive, but if you are dealing with ship scale expenses anyway, it isn't out of line as written.

 

[Grognardia]

But it is now his setting.
I was incredible annoyed by the retcon to the Empress Wave, but I just have to accept it - or ignore it for my game. Guess which I do,

What was the retcon? I admit I've not paid much attention to the Empress Wave and it'll never appear in any of my games. Just another silly world-destroying event.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In TNE the wave was travelling at c.
It was retconned to be moving FTL.