Less Lethal Combat

[Grimolde]

Looks to me that the biggest problem facing me using MRQ2 for a D&D style romp, is the lethality of combat. Walking into a room with 6 'orcs' is a sure fire way to a TPK. Or near enough.

What's the quickest route to making MRQ2 less lethal?

And no fair saying 'Play OpenQuest'

What about doubling all Body Location values (but keeping the original scores to work out Major Wounds and criticals etc)?

 

[butscharoni]

Well, the most obvious way would probably be to give the orcs less combat actions.

Using the mook rule (or whatever it is called, the one after the alternate hitpoints rule), might also help.

Doubling hit points in body locations could at least give the players the option to live through a good hit and thus get in one of their own on their next SR.

You could also consider, dropping hit locations for players, just giving them a calculated hit total and subtracting from that and then use rules for serious wounds when they run out of them (Similar to WFRP2E).

 

[GevatterHein]

Just add CON and SIZ and use the total to determine location hit points.

 

[Dan True]

I actually don't think it's that bad for d&d style games. Facing 6 orcs with 2 CA each, can still be handled - the characters just need to think more about what they're doing, and not simply rush in and be surrounded to use greater cleave.

But armour, sorcery and magic items can all turn a fight.

- Dan

 

[Deleriad]

To be honest it's not as lethal as you might think providing the players take it seriously. In last night's session 4 PCs (one of whom has just lost a hand) faced off against 12 trollkin, 6 dark trolls, 2 great trolls and a dark troll zorak zoran rune lord. After 4 rounds (when the deus ex machina kicked in) they had killed or disabled 10 trollkin, 1 dark troll and 2 great trolls for the loss of one PC (to the rune lord).

The key is how the PCs set themselves up. If they simply walk up 6 orcs and stand in a line then the extra CAs will count quite quickly. If they're smart and try to prevent all the orcs from engaging at once then they can make it though.

The other thing is: hero points. It is all but impossible to kill a PC who has even 1 hero point left. The glancing blow (turning a major wound into a serious one) ability can keep them in the fight a long, long time. More than anything else, if you want to increase PC survivability, be generous with hero points.

That said, RQ combat tends to scare the pants off players used to d20/D&D style systems. Because any blow can be lethal then they quickly get motivated to not face attacks where ever possible. It's well worth while running a couple of sample gladiator matches for players to get a feel for the dangers of not taking combat seriously.

 

[Grimolde]

Thanks guys, good advice

Have to say, the more I think about it, the more I'm tempted to run MRQ2 as is. It's about time those pesky players started to think a bit more.

I did do a mock gladitorial type combat, with all the player character, and no 'monsters' as such. It was very brutal and I think that's what scared them off. Perhaps combat is more lethal with player characters as opposed to your basic 'orc' monster.

 

[danskmacabre]

I've been running some dungeon bashes with my son recently using just MRQ2 core.
The common magic is pretty decent, especially as every character gets it.
The heal spell seems pretty decent.
I guess the players need to fight cleverly and try to avoid major wounds!

 

[Dan True]

You need to remember:

- Magic, both common, sorcery and divine can be very important.
- Environment... There needs to be stuff in the combat area that the player's can use. Tables, stones, benches etc.

- Dan

 

[jolt]

More Hero Points early on and then slowly wheen them off the need for them as they become more familiar with the system. Saying "fight smarter" to people new to the system doesn't really help.

jolt

 

[ThatGuy]

Also:

Insist that someone is a healer. Sorcerous if possible. And FORCE them to take "Regrow Limb" or it's equivalent.

I understand that no one ever wants to be the healer, but in MRQ2 it's not really an option- someone HAS to pick up the mantle. They will quickly become everyone's favorite player and may even get treated to dinner once or twice. Being a sorcerous healer means you can heal more than one person at a time- helpful.

I ran into this problem with a group of 6...and I had to really railroad the last guy into getting some healing skills / magic. He was reluctant, but everyone understood when their scout got his leg impaled and shattered...by a stag. If a big Deer can kill off a relatively powerful character in one surprise hit, healing is a must.

Healing healing healing. As important as everything else. It is the only real equalizer in a brutally realistic and deadly system.

 

[Dan True]

Also:

Insist that someone is a healer. Sorcerous if possible. And FORCE them to take "Regrow Limb" or it's equivalent.

I understand that no one ever wants to be the healer, but in MRQ2 it's not really an option- someone HAS to pick up the mantle. They will quickly become everyone's favorite player and may even get treated to dinner once or twice. Being a sorcerous healer means you can heal more than one person at a time- helpful.

I ran into this problem with a group of 6...and I had to really railroad the last guy into getting some healing skills / magic. He was reluctant, but everyone understood when their scout got his leg impaled and shattered...by a stag. If a big Deer can kill off a relatively powerful character in one surprise hit, healing is a must.

Healing healing healing. As important as everything else. It is the only real equalizer in a brutally realistic and deadly system.

I very much disagree. I banned the sorcery healing spells because I think they're too powerful. My players have a ring of Heal 2, and that's the healing in they repetoire (so no healing of serious or major wounds). I haven't lost a player yet... the only time it was close, was when they were in danger of drowning from a trap.

- Dan

 

[danskmacabre]

More Hero Points early on and then slowly wheen them off the need for them as they become more familiar with the system. Saying "fight smarter" to people new to the system doesn't really help.
jolt

Well really that's what it comes down to.
I consider myself quite new to mrq2, so I've been running practice sessions with my son for several sessions.
He's used to playing Pathfinder, which is a much less gritty system.
As such the practice character fatalities have been pretty common.
But as we practice the system and try out the various options, we have become comfortable with it.
I don't see my comment as a negative or unhelpful, but really with any system, before you run it for real in a campaign it's better to practice it first.
I have managed to get some players together for MRQ2, all also from Pathfinder. So I have suggested some practice sessions with them so they can get used to the game and when I'm ready to run a campaign and they're comfortable with the system, things will run smoothly.

 

[ThatGuy]

Well really that's what it comes down to.
I consider myself quite new to mrq2, so I've been running practice sessions with my son for several sessions.
He's used to playing Pathfinder, which is a much less gritty system.
As such the practice character fatalities have been pretty common.
But as we practice the system and try out the various options, we have become comfortable with it.
I don't see my comment as a negative or unhelpful, but really with any system, before you run it for real in a campaign it's better to practice it first.
I have managed to get some players together for MRQ2, all also from Pathfinder. So I have suggested some practice sessions with them so they can get used to the game and when I'm redy to run a campaign and they're comfortable with the system, things will run smoothly.

+1 to practice fights / short system runs.

I have noticed that with those unfamiliar with the system, they have a tendency to freeze up once the stakes get high (which is not altogether unrealistic). So, using my previous example, when the stag mangled the scouts leg, the healer (who was unfamiliar with the system), began to get very skittish, and really didn't make the most use of his CA's, due to (what appeared to me to be) fear. As a result, the other character ended up killing the stag, with the healer not ever quite sure what to do until the fight was over. I'm sure he will know better next time. Now- if you are looking for this kind of realism- don't run practices. If you need players to begin the game able to be proactive and aggressive, then do practice.

OR, for super realism- practice fighting with the fighters, spell casting with the mages, etc.

That will make players familiar with their character's strengths and unfamiliar and unsure when it comes to their character's weaknesses.

 

[soltakss]

Insist that someone is a healer. Sorcerous if possible. And FORCE them to take "Regrow Limb" or it's equivalent.

Regrow Limb, or Regenerate, is important and useful, but I wouldn't force anyone to take a specific spell. Also, not every cult gets Regrow Limb (not important if you aren't using RQ-style cults).

Also, what happens if the healer is killed? Not everyone values healers and many people will actively target an opposing healer, especially chaotics.

Better to have everyone with a few points of healing. We traditionally had Healing 2 to stop bleeding, but if everyone had Healing 4 then that would be enough for most purposes.

I ran into this problem with a group of 6...and I had to really railroad the last guy into getting some healing skills / magic. He was reluctant, but everyone understood when their scout got his leg impaled and shattered...by a stag. If a big Deer can kill off a relatively powerful character in one surprise hit, healing is a must.

I wouldn't have done that, to be honest. I'd have left them to their own devices until someone got really hurt, then advised them to get healing. That works better for me.

Healing healing healing. As important as everything else. It is the only real equalizer in a brutally realistic and deadly system.

I agree that healing is very important in a RQ game, but I wouldn't say that a dedicated healer is the answer.

Healing Potions are as important, perhaps more, than a healer. If you have salves and drinks that heal automatically then you don't need healers. If you have magical items that allow healing to be cast (matrices/enchantments/special items) then everyone becomes effective.

 

[Mixster]

I actually don't think it's that bad for d&d style games. Facing 6 orcs with 2 CA each, can still be handled - the characters just need to think more about what they're doing, and not simply rush in and be surrounded to use greater cleave.

But armour, sorcery and magic items can all turn a fight.

- Dan

QFT.

A 110% Combat style character with AP4 and 3CAs would make quick work of 6 orcs if he knew what he was doing.

If he allowed them to use their 9CAs more than he has. He would probably be screwed. Especially if they acted before him, since it would just be:
Parry, parry, Parry. No more CA, Remaining Orcs Chop him to pieces.

If he could be sure to take down the orcs one or two at a time, he would stand a decent chance. With A big weapon, he would stand a decent chance of killing them even if they parry.

Also, I attempted to be the Healer for my party, but since arcane healing doesn't really fit in Ebberron, Dan removed Regenerate.

Anyway, Divine Healing is usually better IMO, heal body heals all locations back and puts all limbs back on, instead of just returning them to 1hp.

 

[Deleriad]

Just as a data point in my Glorantha campaign which has probably had 35 plus sessions now there have been just two PC fatalities and the only healing they have is one person with Healing 3.

It has been hero points that keep them alive. Also, unlike previous RQ I roll my dice in the open so when a NPC criticals, we all see it.

One odd little quirk: test fights tend to over-estimate the fatalities because death isn't real (as it were). In actual play the NPCs at least usually are minded not to attack to the death unless there really is no other option.

 

[Ultor]

I was astonished at how quickly our experienced players waltzed through an ambush by 6 Lunar Peltasts, a near-Rune Lord, a near-Priest and an even more experienced leader last Saturday. They wiped out the Peltasts in one round, most of them with severed weapon arms, did the Rune Lord the next and forced the Priest to call for a miracle to get him and the leader out of there (the leader had been burning Hero Points to save her sorry *ss as well). A Damage Resistance and a Coordination spell were the only magics used by the pcs. Their high persistence skills came in handy too.

Having more combat actions and good Strike Rank bonuses really makes combat easy. It turns into a case of hit early, hit often.

Spirit Combat frightens the life out of them, though.

 

[ThatGuy]

@Soltakiss- I had to do it. Only 2 people had any experience with RQ, and my games are particularly deadly. Like I said, a Deer almost killed one person. And these guys started with an extra 100 free points and bonus stat points. They are all heroic. And 3 of them almost bit the dust...against a deer. One of the best fighters almost got his head impaled on a antler as well.

And that's not all. My games are the ones where someone tries to jump over something simple, falls and dies. Or the last guy in line gets horribly snatched by surprise by some monster and quickly eaten- almost unfairly. Almost for fear factor alone.

So, I had to do it, just so that I could have peace of mind that I had given them a sporting chance.

 

[DamonJynx]

Well, my group just dove straight in to an Elric campaign with no practice sessions. I ran "Curse of the Whisperer" as their opening scenario and they handled it fine, much better than me in fact. One PC died from a shark attack and another was possessed in spirit combat and he let that PC die, but other than that it was all good. I did, howvever, dumb down the Avatar of Pyray at the end. If I didn't it would have been a TPK for sure, which I didn't think was fair for the first scenario.

I don't think the RAW need to be less lethal. Just my opinion. If they can't handle the heat...

 

[Redcrow]

Combat is always a gamble. No matter how slim the chance, if you roll the dice enough times eventually you will lose. I try to encourage my players to consider whether or not any given combat is worth the risk and avoid placing them in situations where they have no other choice than to fight. If they decide combat is worth the risk, I then try to encourage them to make good tactical decisions to reduce the risk as much as possible rather than just charging in and swinging for the fences.

Healing is important in games with deadly combat, but I've never been a big fan of 'instant' healing (spells, potions, etc.) and tend to prefer forms of healing that merely speed up the natural healing process. I have just always hated the vision of someone going from near death to perfectly fine in the blink of an eye, but thats just the way most games handle magical healing.