Legality of ship weapons?

[Galadrion]

Hm. Well, looking at the Equipment Availability table (CSC2023, page 4), I'd personally rule that all starship-grade weaponry is considered "specialized equipment", which means a -1 DM on the check right there. In addition, any weapon system other than a laser or a sandcaster is going to be considered military or paramilitary, for another -2 DM. (Yes, missile launchers too. Standard missiles might or might not be considered paramilitary, but those launchers can also be used to fire some much nastier and more illegal ordinance.) And the other possibly applicable DMs from the table can also contribute - world population, starport, tech level, trade codes, and the Traveller's willingness to pay more.

Now, the check for availability is normally an Average (8+) Broker or Streetwise check, but I would rule that it was only the case for turret weaponry. For barbettes, I'd call for the check to be Difficult (10+), small bays would mean Very Difficult (12+), and so on.

Now, as far as black (or at least grey) market purchases of starship weapons go, I'd classify lasers and sandcasters as Category 2 (Civilian Use), most other weapons as Category 3 (Paramilitary Use), and anything with the Radiation trait as at least Category 4 (Military Use), possibly all the way up to Prohibited (nuclear missiles and torpedoes, definitely!).

 

[Condottiere]

Ecks ray lasers would appear to be in a gray area.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Hm. Well, looking at the Equipment Availability table (CSC2023, page 4), I'd personally rule that all starship-grade weaponry is considered "specialized equipment", which means a -1 DM on the check right there. In addition, any weapon system other than a laser or a sandcaster is going to be considered military or paramilitary, for another -2 DM. (Yes, missile launchers too. Standard missiles might or might not be considered paramilitary, but those launchers can also be used to fire some much nastier and more illegal ordinance.) And the other possibly applicable DMs from the table can also contribute - world population, starport, tech level, trade codes, and the Traveller's willingness to pay more.

Now, the check for availability is normally an Average (8+) Broker or Streetwise check, but I would rule that it was only the case for turret weaponry. For barbettes, I'd call for the check to be Difficult (10+), small bays would mean Very Difficult (12+), and so on.

Now, as far as black (or at least grey) market purchases of starship weapons go, I'd classify lasers and sandcasters as Category 2 (Civilian Use), most other weapons as Category 3 (Paramilitary Use), and anything with the Radiation trait as at least Category 4 (Military Use), possibly all the way up to Prohibited (nuclear missiles and torpedoes, definitely!).

I may be biased, but I have spent the decade or so deeply in ITAR (International Traffic in Arms Regulations). Dual-use items have caused me no end of frustration IRL.

Everything dual-use is Paramilitary, because it requires nearly zero effort to make it a weapon. Mining lasers and firmpoint-scaled weapons could be Civilian, but I really like the annoyance of bureaucracy.

It is way too difficult to reign a party in once they have reached ownership of military weapons.

 

[Vormaerin]

Obviously, Traveller considers missiles a weapon that civilians can have, because they have many published examples of civilian ships with missiles. I have no idea what the use case for that is, but we'll have to assume there is one, I guess.

Otherwise, space is being treated like Age of Sail oceans, where your merchantmen carried cannon for self-defense. Turret lasers are not particularly dangerous to military vessels. Police grade vessels like a Close Escort or Patrol Cruiser are at some risk to them, but even a low end SDB will shrug off all but the luckiest pulse laser shots, much less any beam laser.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

It is not so much that civilians use an item, but whether that is the primary purpose.
The rules even discuss the difference between “shall issue” and “show cause” permitting.
Missile Racks would be Paramilitary (their purpose is launching missiles and/or probes).
Missiles themselves are specifically called out as Restricted Military, but there is room for a Merchant Exemption for Standard Ship-to-ship missiles. Anything more advanced than that would be questionable.

Much like the proverbial “ghost gun” industry, I have played with arms dealers who build aftermarket add-ons or modifications that improve the weapon capabilities without leaving a paperwork trail for the government to follow.
This can be a “fun” option for players who want to make some money as arms dealers.

For example, during a one-off, the players modified their sand canisters to contain thermobaric explosives so that they could repel small craft and boarding parties.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Obviously, Traveller considers missiles a weapon that civilians can have, because they have many published examples of civilian ships with missiles. I have no idea what the use case for that is, but we'll have to assume there is one, I guess.

Otherwise, space is being treated like Age of Sail oceans, where your merchantmen carried cannon for self-defense. Turret lasers are not particularly dangerous to military vessels. Police grade vessels like a Close Escort or Patrol Cruiser are at some risk to them, but even a low end SDB will shrug off all but the luckiest pulse laser shots, much less any beam laser.

Shrug off? Beam lasers are more for point defense and anti-smallcraft on a ship scale, but are still fairly potent against ground targets.

Again, every shipyard planet has a different tech level and law level. There are a lot of opportunities to be had for role playing

 

[Vormaerin]

Sorry, I thought we were still talking about imperial space. What is allowed on a planet away from the Imperial starport is, of course, extremely variable.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Compare the weapons loadout of the Serenity and the Rosinante... one is a merchant the other is a warship.
Are there any unarmed ships in Star Wars or Star Trek?

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

We are talking about Imperial Space, and the availability of such weapons. Then we started talking about starports and shipyards (which may not be in Imperial space or on Imperial Customs Zones)

 

[Vormaerin]

Any merchant that is going about normal trade within the Imperium is unlikely to be armed. It costs money for both the weapons and the crew training and they aren't going to be good enough at fighting to make fighting worthwhile. And that's without the insurance and licensing stuff that isn't a factor in Traveller play. Same reason why retailers forbid their associates from confronting shoplifters and modern merchant ships don't carry weapons like East Indiamen did. Which is why most ships have nothing in their turrets by default, if they even have turrets installed at all.

If they do go armed, because they are mail carriers (required by Imperial law to be armed) or they are going to kind of dodgy systems, they will take weapons that keep them safe, are as cost effective as possible, and easy to use. Not weapons optimized for blowing up their enemies.

PCs, of course, will have different priorities even if they think they are merchants.

Piracy in systems with significant trade is going to be more hijacking and decoy scams, less "there's an attack ship in bound!" because you can't pull that off if there is system defense boats around the 100d arrival/departure area.

Violent piracy happens when you go to backwater systems that can't defend anyone or you are way out in the back of beyond skimming fuel away from the system's taxing and fuel fee charging types. And if you are going there regularly, then you will be looking at some way to actually fight with your ship.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

Any merchant that is going about normal trade within the Imperium is unlikely to be armed. It costs money for both the weapons and the crew training and they aren't going to be good enough at fighting to make fighting worthwhile. And that's without the insurance and licensing stuff that isn't a factor in Traveller play. Same reason why retailers forbid their associates from confronting shoplifters and modern merchant ships don't carry weapons like East Indiamen did. Which is why most ships have nothing in their turrets by default, if they even have turrets installed at all.

If they do go armed, because they are mail carriers (required by Imperial law to be armed) or they are going to kind of dodgy systems, they will take weapons that keep them safe, are as cost effective as possible, and easy to use. Not weapons optimized for blowing up their enemies.

PCs, of course, will have different priorities even if they think they are merchants.

Piracy in systems with significant trade is going to be more hijacking and decoy scams, less "there's an attack ship in bound!" because you can't pull that off if there is system defense boats around the 100d arrival/departure area.

Violent piracy happens when you go to backwater systems that can't defend anyone or you are way out in the back of beyond skimming fuel away from the system's taxing and fuel fee charging types. And if you are going there regularly, then you will be looking at some way to actually fight with your ship.

I agree.
Highly populated and civil planets would definitely have SDB’s actively patrolling the inbound jump zone.
Jump bridges and systems being mined and prospected are also great locations for pirates.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

And again, now I have another topic to write about.
I love this forum

 

[Condottiere]

Having armed civilian spacecraft dock at starports is a calculated risk the Imperium is prepared to make.

Local spaceports could make their own requirements for landing, and one reason that the final mile is done by an unarmed smallcraft.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Have you taken note of the sheer number of destroyer class and smaller vessels the Imperial navy has in a subsector?
While capitals may be restricted to their base of operation and a few training jumps and maneuvers per year, the destroyers et al will be routinely patrolling so their crews can gain experience.

Under the paradigm of the Imperium put forward by the High Guard big ship crowd there is no potential for piracy within Imperial borders - the cops are everywhere.

Thus merchants can be unarmed.

 

[Condottiere]

1. If I recall correctly, I was a charter member of the no piracy in Core club; I may have been the only member.

2. The issue was as to Imperium run starports allowing armed civilian spacecraft to dock.

3. Whether or not the spacecraft operators embed spacecraft sized weapon systems is another matter, which I would presume is based on a cost benefit analysis.

4. The Royal Navy were enthusiastic pirate hunters, both to secure the shipping lanes the Empire's lifeblood ran through, and operational, possibly combat, experience.

5. Also, space is big.

6. The Imperium Navy seems low on ships, analytically speaking.

 

[Vidgar]

Hi All,
This is probably off topic; Do the Imperium police ship within a system (entry, exit and travel between planets) or is it the Planetary Government?

 

[Condottiere]

If planetary jurisdiction stops at one hundred diameters, then you better prove you're worth all those taxes by securing everything outside that.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The whole "the Imperium rules the space between the planets" has never struck me as anything but hyperbole.

A high population world with a TL of 8+ is going to want all the resources of its home system for itself.

 

[Vormaerin]

The Imperium isn't claiming the asteroids and stuff. They are asserting Imperial law in that area. The national government in the US regulates interstate trade, requires states to accept documents from other states, manages some land, and so on. Both the Imperial Navy and the Glisten Planetary Defense forces are going to patrol Glisten space. Glisten governs the system. But, whereas the Glisten government is largely able to do whatever it wants in Glissten City, it is NOT free to do whatever it wants in space. Does the government of Glissten control the mining rights to the asteroids? Yes. Can they impose a tax on all shipping passing through the system and using the starport? NO.

Are you destined for the Imperial pokey instead of the Glisten jail if you do crimes in space? Yes. Can the Glisten planetary navy arrest you for those crimes? Yes. Can they tell the Imperial Navy not to arrest you? Nope. Can they arrest you for some Glissten government crime if you are on your ship? Probably not, unless the Imperial authorities approve it. Just like Texas Rangers can't arrest you in CA for crimes committed in Texas. They have to ask CA to arrest you and extradite you. Which CA might or might not do, depending on how dumb the law you are trying to enforce is.

It is going to be a patchwork of overlapping authorities with the balance depending on the strength of the government on that planet. And more complicated than is likely ever going to be worth dealing with in any detail.

 

[Vormaerin]

Ultimately, you have to decide on the Imperium's revenue model. It obviously spends a lot of money. It is unclear where that money comes from. Does it use a US model, where it taxes all the citizens? Does it us an EU model, where it taxes the planetary governments? Does it collect import/export duties on anything shipped between planets? All of the above?

If the Imperium is taxing citizens directly, it's jurisdiction is wider and likely more intertwined with planetary governments. If each planetary government is paying quitrent or scutage or whatever to the Imperium, the Imperium has pretty strict separation of jurisdiction. Empire doesn't arrest people on planets and planetary government doesn't arrest people in space. If the Imperium is a trade cartel, then it could be either way as long as everyone who lifts off planet pays the appropriate amount.

It is also true that the Imperium has been getting steadily more robust over time, with more and more nobles, bigger fleets, more bureaucrats, etc. So the rhetoric in books is not matching the context.