Legality of ship weapons?

Stingray_tm

Banded Mongoose
From reading the rules I haven't found anything suggesting that authorities have a problem with a Far Trader being armed with a potential weapon of mass destruction (firing a ship laser into a population center does not sound trivial) for "self defense against pirates".
Are there any details on what flies and what not? Nuclear torpedoes obviously are military grade, but what is a civilian ship allowed to have installed?
 
Referees discretion I would say. There are so many factors that play a role in this. You could use the Law Level as a guideline for example if you wish.
To give a more thorough advice we would need to know about your campaign. If we stick with the "official" Traveller universe, things will look differently at the heart of the Imperium than far out on its borders for example.
 
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Well. Interplanetary space is Imperial Space. So what is the Law Level of the Imperium?
That is not how this works and I'm pretty sure that the book The Third Imperium mentions, that the law is not the same throughout the Imperium. There may be some principles that the Imperium tries to uphold but enforcing them is a whole different matter.
Example: I'm pretty sure that the Imperium is against Space Piracy but there are a lot of Space Pirates. How so?
Why do different worlds in the Imperium have a different Law Level, if the law is the same throughout the Imperium?
 
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No, space (and the main starport) is where there is Imperial Law (at least within Imperial borders). It is on planets that the law level characteristic applies. Pirates exist because some people break the law. That doesn't invalidate the existence of the law.

Regarding the actual question, it is never spelled out explicitly anywhere. But turret weapons have always been allowed on civilian ships per the rules since the beginning of the game. That's beam and pulse lasers, missiles (non nuclear), and sandcasters. Other stuff has had conflicting status over the various editions.

I tend to think that basic turret lasers, missiles, and sandcasters are viewed like shotguns and hunting rifles (at least in the US). Sure, they are dangerous and could be used criminally. But there are legitimate civilian uses for them and they are not, ultimately, a threat to the military. Would you be able to take your laser armed starship to another port besides the Imperial Starport of the system? Possibly not.

Now, outside of the Imperium? Anything could go as far as law is concerned. There was a comment in one of the recent sector books that focuses on extra imperial governments about them preferring merchants to have crappy point defense weapons instead of proper ones.

Ultimately, the answer is referee discretion. The more you want pirates and stuff to be a factor in your game, the more relaxed you need to be about weapons. If you have an Imperium that is all over the pirates like fleas on a dog, then you can have restrictions on civilian weapons because the need for self defense would be less obvious.
 
No, space (and the main starport) is where there is Imperial Law (at least within Imperial borders). It is on planets that the law level characteristic applies. Pirates exist because some people break the law. That doesn't invalidate the existence of the law.
As I said before if you are not able to enforce the law the law is basically not existent. Law in itself is just a theoretical construct.
The Emperor has its nobilty, from the Dukes to the Knights. Some may be loyal to the Emperor, some may have their own agenda. The Emperor knows that he can not run the Imperium without them. And since information travels inly as fast and as far a ship can jump, he has to give them a certain freedom. Sorry, the Imperium is not this uniform space. It would be the most boring background ever if it were.
Ultimately, the answer is referee discretion.
See my first post.
 
We seem to have some confusion here. The Knights and Dukes and whatnot are Imperial officials. They aren't part of the planetary government (except in rare cases). So your comment about planetary law levels was a non sequitur. Planetary law levels have nothing to do with space law (in the Imperium), which is what I thought you were saying by bringing it up. And the comment about pirates makes about as much sense as saying handguns aren't illegal in England because some criminals have them.

There is a body of Imperial law that regulates what is and isn't allowed in Imperial territory (the designated Imperial starport and all the space outside of planetary orbit). Obviously, a local Duke can do whatever he wants until called on the carpet (by the local Moot of other nobles or by higher Imperial authorities) and there can be specific regional edicts (again, until they are overruled if they ever are), just like a local sheriff can run roughshod over the law until the Feds or state officials finally notice. But the primary purpose of Imperial law is facilitating trade (and thus Imperial revenues). And radically different rules about what a merchant ship can do are one of things you want to avoid if you are trying to facilitate trade. Btw, one of the concrete statements on the subject in the rules is that you can't get a mail shipping contract unless your ship is armed.

Having Federal law apply throughout the US does not make the US boring or samey. And giving local authorities some discretion does not mean there is no standards. The fact that no one knows I have a heavy machinegun in my closet doesn't mean it's legal. It just means I haven't been caught. And the question was about what *merchants* are armed with. Presumably, the poster wanted to know what is normal and legal for them to have, not what they can get away with until they encounter a patrol cruiser.

The answer to how something is in a particular campaign is 'whatever the referee & players in that campaign want', of course. How dangerous is space travel? Traveller rules assume you can actually have successful space pirates and commerce raiders, so armed ships are the default. And the further assumption is that those weapons are lasers, missiles, and sandcasters in turrets. I think the only explicit no is spinal mounts, but I don't recall any civilian ships with barbettes or bay weapons (but there's a lot of ships, I could have overlooked some).

As an aside, merchants are not going to WANT to pay millions for weapons if they aren't going to be needed. So if you don't have pirates and stuff in your campaign area, you won't have very many armed merchantmen.
 
As I said before if you are not able to enforce the law the law is basically not existent. Law in itself is just a theoretical construct.
The Emperor has its nobilty, from the Dukes to the Knights. Some may be loyal to the Emperor, some may have their own agenda. The Emperor knows that he can not run the Imperium without them. And since information travels inly as fast and as far a ship can jump, he has to give them a certain freedom. Sorry, the Imperium is not this uniform space. It would be the most boring background ever if it were.

See my first post.

First of all, my question was not about the enforcability of certain laws but of their existence.
Secondly Imperial Law is valid across the whole Imperium. That's the point of it in the first place. Again this is not a question of actual space cops showing up arresting your but for possessing weapons but of the legality.
Even if a law can not be enforced due to matters of practicality does not make a crime legal.
You did not answer my question, instead you answered the question you wanted to hear instead. You are not helping.

To get back to the actual topic: I guess Sandcasters and "mining" or "powerful point defense' lasers should be justifyable in MTU, as suggested above.
 
To get back to the actual topic: I guess Sandcasters and "mining" or "powerful point defense' lasers should be justifyable in MTU, as suggested above.

Individual point defense lasers are discussed in Trailing Frontier. If you don't already own that, I wouldn't buy it just on that basis. They are just weaker, shorter range lasers that are a bit cheaper.

Missiles are, to my mind, the least probable civilian weapon. They are extremely expensive and have little alternative application unless you assume they double as probe launchers or something. Sandcasters and lasers have defensive applications and there are mining lasers.
 
The most powerful weapon of mass destruction on a civilian starship is the ship itself. The weapons carried by civilian ships such as the turret mounted lasers are pretty useless against military targets that are armoured, Missiles are too expensive to just sit on their launch racks unused, and even sandcasters can be used as dirtside super shotguns.
 
1. Circumstantially.

2. I think that the Imperium tolerates armed civilian spacecraft, up to a certain degree, whereas planetary governments may not, within their jurisdiction.

3. Outside of that, there's an undemilitarized Azhanti cruising in Vargr space.

4. Some civilian designed starships have fifty and hundred tonne exterior orientated bays.

5. Toleration would be potential lethality, which in the case of energy weapons would be two dice and long range; probably that's why you have the option for laser point defence guns.

6. Missiles are a grey zone; you probably have to show cause if it's anything but standard.
 
The most powerful weapon of mass destruction on a civilian starship is the ship itself. The weapons carried by civilian ships such as the turret mounted lasers are pretty useless against military targets that are armoured, Missiles are too expensive to just sit on their launch racks unused, and even sandcasters can be used as dirtside super shotguns.
Yeah, I have completely failed to find a situation where I think a legitimate merchant would have missiles in their turret. They cost a lot, they take up storage space on top of the turret and fire control tonnage, and if you actually use them, that's gonna pretty much wipe your profit right off the map. And they are not particularly better than lasers at hurting bad guys, given they can be shot down or jammed enough to offset their higher damage. I doubt even pirates use them unless they just happen to steal a bunch of missiles.

I suspect that most merchants would have beam lasers. Beam lasers have a high enough hit bonus to offset the low quality and likely inexperience of the ship's fire control and gunner. They are the cheapest of the options. They don't require ammo storage, just power. And merchants don't really care if their enemy is destroyed. They just want to do enough damage to drive them off. And if some crazy freak does shoot missiles at you, the beam laser has a chance to kill it.

Maybe some would have a sandcaster tube in one turret for emergencies since the cost of the sand is less than the cost of getting hit by a laser, probably.
 
Yeah, I have completely failed to find a situation where I think a legitimate merchant would have missiles in their turret. They cost a lot, they take up storage space on top of the turret and fire control tonnage, and if you actually use them, that's gonna pretty much wipe your profit right off the map. And they are not particularly better than lasers at hurting bad guys, given they can be shot down or jammed enough to offset their higher damage. I doubt even pirates use them unless they just happen to steal a bunch of missiles.

I suspect that most merchants would have beam lasers. Beam lasers have a high enough hit bonus to offset the low quality and likely inexperience of the ship's fire control and gunner. They are the cheapest of the options. They don't require ammo storage, just power. And merchants don't really care if their enemy is destroyed. They just want to do enough damage to drive them off. And if some crazy freak does shoot missiles at you, the beam laser has a chance to kill it.

Maybe some would have a sandcaster tube in one turret for emergencies since the cost of the sand is less than the cost of getting hit by a laser, probably.
On the contrary, equipping a freighter with lasers is expensive! You lose a ton of cargo space per hard point to account for fire control, you lose an additional 0.44t of cargo space per hard point to power the laser and fuel the additional power plant, if this is a super freighter this might mean you have to hire an additional engineer who has to be housed and paid, you need 1 gunner per turret to operate these turrets, who must be paid and housed (that's another 2.5t per hard point minimum), this comes out to 2.94t of lost cargo space per hardpoint, almost 3% of your ship mass!
Meanwhile you can just fixed mounts a couple missile racks for a bit more cost than beam lasers, but no tonnage, because the pilot can fire them and you needed to have her around already. Also there's nothing that says you have to fill up the whole missile magazine on each hard point, if someone hasn't broken off their attack after 3 turns of missile salvos, they're perhaps unlikely to break it off after the next 9 either. This is probably a scheme you would take as, for example a major freight carrier along relatively safe routes, they don't expect to have to fire those missiles very often, they mostly exist as deterrence.
 
So even if you decide that you can fire missiles forward and have them turn around and go after the person in pursuit of you (part of the reason why fixed mounts don't have fire control is because you can't target people except straight ahead, so that's mildly sketch), you are not saving that much money. A missile launcher is 50% more than a beam laser. Yes, a beam laser costs power, but you aren't firing at the same time you are energizing the jump drive, so that's not usually a real problem.

Not sure where you get the idea that fixed mounts on starship don't require a gunner. Pg 183 of the core rules say "turrets and fixed mounts just require one gunner each". Says the same thing in High Guard. I suppose your pilot could, instead of a pilot action, take a gunner action. But that seems suboptimal. And you'd have to find a pilot who also has gunner skill.

Regardless, missiles are Cr20000 each. So even if you just fire off one salvo, you've spent Cr60000. That's pretty harsh if you are trying to haul freight and it is a nasty bite if you are smuggling.
 
So even if you decide that you can fire missiles forward and have them turn around and go after the person in pursuit of you (part of the reason why fixed mounts don't have fire control is because you can't target people except straight ahead, so that's mildly sketch), you are not saving that much money. A missile launcher is 50% more than a beam laser. Yes, a beam laser costs power, but you aren't firing at the same time you are energizing the jump drive, so that's not usually a real problem.
You can point fixed mounts in any direction, and also that the "missiles" mounted on ships in this game are actually missiles and not rockets is extraordinary supported across many entries in the line
For a j-1 drive, you can provide the power by just down powering the basic systems for the duration of the jump initiation, which you almost certainly would design a freighter to do to save on the power plant, so you only have free power on j-2 ships or more, and even then only assuming you're not using jump batteries, I don't think you can just handwaved the power cost of the lasers.
Not sure where you get the idea that fixed mounts on starship don't require a gunner. Pg 183 of the core rules say "turrets and fixed mounts just require one gunner each". Says the same thing in High Guard. I support your pilot could, instead of a pilot action, take a gunner action. But that seems suboptimal. And you'd have to find a pilot who also has gunner skill.
"However, a pilot may fire any weapons in a single turret at DM-2 to the attack roll or weapons noted as being in fixed mounts" core rulebook update 2022-p.166
Also, missile attacks do not add gunner skill, so as long as you train your pilots to gunner0 they're fine, which is not especially complicated, especially if you higher ex-navy personnel
Regardless, missiles are Cr20000 each. So even if you just fire off one salvo, you've spent Cr60000. That's pretty harsh if you are trying to haul freight and it is a nasty bite if you are smuggling.
"This is probably a scheme you would take as, for example a major freight carrier along relatively safe routes, they don't expect to have to fire those missiles very often, they mostly exist as deterrence."
 
Yeah, I forgot the pilot firing wasn't just small craft, which is where you normally use it.

I'm not a super expert on ship combat, it has never really interested me that much. But I'd be pretty leery of cheesing the fixed mount rule like that and would only allow it if using the vector combat system and actually have the mount defined. You don't have any fire control for target designation other than the turret camera or whatever. That's the whole point of not having tonnage assigned to fire control. Turrets are what let you elide the facing issue in standard combat. Saying that firing off a smart missile in a random direction will allow it to find the target you want it to find on its own seems a bit of a stretch.

You make a lot of statements about what one would certainly do designing a ship, but no ships in actual publications are designed like that. With fixed mounts, with no power for the jump drives (except in references to ancient low tech practices that don't apply anymore) and merchant ships with the pilot doubling as gunner. But even if that were all as normal as you say, I don't think missiles are the way to go.

A single turret beam laser costs MCr0.7 to install, contributes trivially to maintenance and otherwise has no operating costs. It costs 5 power. Considering a Far Trader has 90 power, I don't think its difficult to imagine that they couldn't come up with 5 power in a combat situation. Yes, the pilot takes a -2 to hit. But the weapon is +4 to hit. It is a turret, so there's no question about facing. The fixed mount missile tube costs MCr0.85, uses Cr20k every single round it fires and can only fire three times unless you have a gunner to reload it (and dedicated tonnage to carrying to a missile magazine). And it is going to roll to hit at only +1 (for the smart trait), assuming it survives the pirates' ECM and point defense actions.

If you have any other person on the ship be the turret gunner (the steward, the cargomaster, whatever), then you still are not increasing cabin requirements AND you can now use that beam laser for Point Defense yourself if your opponent has missiles (you have to be designated the gunner to take that action Pilots can't). Oh, and the pilot could theoretically take the "Aid Gunner" action, though a merchant ship probably doesn't have enough thrust to do anything except evade or try to open range.

If you increase the number of missile tubes in your fixed mount, then you are further magnifying your costs over the beam weapon (MCr0.25 per additional tube, plus the ammo cost). You might want the triple beam turret if you think you are going to go up against an actual paramilitary ship like a close escort, patrol cruiser, or corsair that has armor in the range where +2 dmg and +2 point defense might matter. But if that's a problem, you aren't likely operating in any kind of patrolled area. A lot of pirates, especially in patrolled space, are converted (or just opportunistic) merchantmen, so little or no armor. Most merchantships, imho, would have a beam laser and maybe a sandcaster. Both of those being useful for staying alive long enough to jump, which missiles do not unless they happen to hit. Which is not particularly likely. Even if it survives ECM and PD, a missile is only about 50/50 to hit and it doesn't stop the shots the bad guy has taken at you.

Obviously, there is no definitive answer to this because it depends on the assumptions made about how piracy works (how frequent, what kind of ships pirates have, etc) and how ships are designed. But the designed ships in published materials use turrets and funded or nearly funded jump drives. And the encounter table says "Pirates often use armed free traders or even scout/couriers."
 
Yeah, I forgot the pilot firing wasn't just small craft, which is where you normally use it.

I'm not a super expert on ship combat, it has never really interested me that much. But I'd be pretty leery of cheesing the fixed mount rule like that and would only allow it if using the vector combat system and actually have the mount defined. You don't have any fire control for target designation other than the turret camera or whatever. That's the whole point of not having tonnage assigned to fire control. Turrets are what let you elide the facing issue in standard combat. Saying that firing off a smart missile in a random direction will allow it to find the target you want it to find on its own seems a bit of a stretch.
Vls missile that exist today work like this, you will recall that missiles are not fired from the hull under power, they're ejected, iirc by compressed air?, There is, for a self maneuvering munition, no need for it to leave the launcher directly towards the target. This is how modern naval missiles work, this is how most land based cruise missiles work, this is how some sam's work, this is how mlrs with guided munitions avoid counterbattery fire
You make a lot of statements about what one would certainly do designing a ship, but no ships in actual publications are designed like that. With fixed mounts, with no power for the jump drives (except in references to ancient low tech practices that don't apply anymore) and merchant ships with the pilot doubling as gunner. But even if that were all as normal as you say, I don't think missiles are the way to go.
I mean, many of the standard ship designs also don't work very well, ie, traders that don't make a profit using the trading rules as written, warships with low thrust, armor/protection and short ranges weapons, etc, I don't think this is necessarily the best line of argument. I think the idea that a commercial freighter wouldn't be specifically designed to cram the most cargo in it's hull and keep costs to a minimum doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I can definitely be#, convinced that different designs would accept different compromises but like
A single turret beam laser costs MCr0.7 to install, contributes trivially to maintenance and otherwise has no operating costs. It costs 5 power. Considering a Far Trader has 90 power, I don't think its difficult to imagine that they couldn't come up with 5 power in a combat situation. Yes, the pilot takes a -2 to hit. But the weapon is +4 to hit. It is a turret, so there's no question about facing. The fixed mount missile tube costs MCr0.85, uses Cr20k every single round it fires and can only fire three times unless you have a gunner to reload it (and dedicated tonnage to carrying to a missile magazine). And it is going to roll to hit at only +1 (for the smart trait), assuming it survives the pirates' ECM and point defense actions.
The whole idea I was proposing was that you could use missiles instead of turrets for ships that expected to need to fight only rarely to save a not inconsiderable cost in terms of crew members (recall that the pilot can only fire 1 turret but any number of fixed mounts) and tonnage for additional cargo space
Also a singly mounted missile rack can fire up to 12 times before needing to be reloaded
Also recall that only ships of 7500t or better have ecm by default as of hg update 2023
If you have any other person on the ship be the turret gunner (the steward, the cargomaster, whatever), then you still are not increasing cabin requirements AND you can now use that beam laser for Point Defense yourself if your opponent has missiles (you have to be designated the gunner to take that action Pilots can't). Oh, and the pilot could theoretically take the "Aid Gunner" action, though a merchant ship probably doesn't have enough thrust to do anything except evade or try to open range.
Fwiw this also requires cross training, which you were previously turning your nose up about
If you increase the number of missile tubes in your fixed mount, then you are further magnifying your costs over the beam weapon (MCr0.25 per additional tube, plus the ammo cost). You might want the triple beam turret if you think you are going to go up against an actual paramilitary ship like a close escort, patrol cruiser, or corsair that has armor in the range where +2 dmg and +2 point defense might matter. But if that's a problem, you aren't likely operating in any kind of patrolled area. A lot of pirates, especially in patrolled space, are converted (or just opportunistic) merchantmen, so little or no armor. Most merchantships, imho, would have a beam laser and maybe a sandcaster. Both of those being useful for staying alive long enough to jump, which missiles do not unless they happen to hit. Which is not particularly likely. Even if it survives ECM and PD, a missile is only about 50/50 to hit and it doesn't stop the shots the bad guy has taken at you.
You don't have to pay maintenance on missiles, so there's that
Again, refer to the scenario I have repeatedly described for the ship I'm proposing but you continue to ignore. The point is that you don't hang out in places where pirates that mean business can hack it, and you make yourself threatening by packing an armament that's hazardous to the craft you were describing. The ship I'm describing works particularly well as a fairly large bulk freighter
Obviously, there is no definitive answer to this because it depends on the assumptions made about how piracy works (how frequent, what kind of ships pirates have, etc) and how ships are designed. But the designed ships in published materials use turrets and funded or nearly funded jump drives. And the encounter table says "Pirates often use armed free traders or even scout/couriers."
You will note that the scenario I'm describing is in line with this
 
Yes, I am aware how modern missiles work. I am also aware that missile launching platforms actually have fire control and target designation capability. The very thing you were pointing out doesn't exist for fixed turrets. Granted dogfighting has some other differences to normal starship fighting, but one of the things that is true that you cannot fire fixed turret weapons unless you succeed in the positioning test. And there's no exception for missiles. You can't fire them if you can't point your fixed turret at the bad guy in a dogfight. Maybe that's only true in dogfights and not in regular ship combat. You could well be right about how the rules work, because there's no actual examples anywhere of a starship with fixed turrets, much less a combat example of them in use.

The whole missile turret, regardless of number of launchers, can hold 12 missiles. That's a quarter of a million credits in ammunition.

I don't see that rule about EW only existing on large ships. I see a rule that says there's only one default Sensor station on ships less than 7500 tons. Larger ships have multiple sensor stations by automatically. Smaller ships that want to take more than 1 sensor ops action per turn have to buy more stations. There is a Countermeasures Suite you can get, but that's a bonus to EW, not a prerequisite. Obviously, to use your sensor station, you have to have someone assigned to the Sensor Ops role. But Electronics is an extremely common skill. Certainly more common than Gunnery.

My argument about cutting power down to the bone such that you couldn't even afford the 5 to 13 power for laser turret is that there really isn't anything to turn off. The basic ship systems are gravity, the computer, the ship's controls, life support, heat, and light. A jump 1 takes the same power as half the ship's systems. Are you saying that commercial ships are going into free fall with no heat or light for the 30 minutes it takes to do a standard jump sequence? (Its 1d6 x 10 minutes to do the jump engine routine by default). And if you have a Jump 2 or better ship, the power requirements are equal to the entirety of the ship's systems (or more).
 
Your argument is that carrying around an extra half million credits in armaments might make sense for a ship that doesn't expect to fight much at all. I would argue that a civilian who doesn't expect to get into combat doesn't actually pay for weapons. That's why stagecoaches and East Indiamen carried weapons. They expected to need them. Its why trucks and modern freighters don't carry weapons. They expect the cost of fighting to exceed the costs of not fighting if somehow there isn't any help to call for. But they mostly expect that there will be police or navy assets around.

Whereas if they do expect to fight because they are on the frontier or going to backwaters, which big corporate freighters don't generally do, then they'll want more versatile weapons than missiles. Lasers can keep your ship from being damaged by enemy missiles. They can damage enemy ships. They don't run out and leave you unarmed in the middle of a string of backwater port jumps.

Seriously, the kind of corporate ship that you are talking about is not going to encounter piracy unless it involves hijacking or other deceit. They are going to jump from the edge of the port's gravity well to the edge of the next port's gravity well. And they are only going to jump to good quality ports because crap ports don't have the fuel or docking space that they require. And they are definitely not going to go to the places that pirates do hang out, like gas giants. They'll pay for refined fuel or have their own tanker network because skimming greatly increases the time spent in system unless your system is like Regina (where the main port is at the gas giant instead of days away).

If they see anyone they even think is a pirate, they are going to scream and run. And if they can't run, they'll surrender rather than fight. Or drop cargo to appease the pirates. The pirates are going to be in a hurry, because that corporate ship isn't going to be far from the port. And they aren't going to be a big corporate freighter able to haul all the cargo the freighter has. If the freighter is fueled up, it'll jump to escape. And if its not fueled up yet, the pirates aren't going to escape the naval pursuit in that ship even if they had a prize crew to operate it.

Piracy happens to tramp freighters and people operating in the back of beyond. Unless there's a war going on, in which case they'll probably convoy with escorts.
 
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