Legality of ship weapons?

[Condottiere]

There are likely optimal approach and exit spacelanes for jumping to specific planets, moving targets depending on the time of year.

Question would be if they are actively patrolled.

 

[Vormaerin]

Umm, I opened the last post with a list of questions about that very topic. Some Traveller lore suggests you are making straight line travel through real space such that you could get kicked out of jump because you clipped a sufficient gravity well en route. I'm pretty sure Mongoose more or less reprinted that as is. But I could be misremembering. So one possibility is that ships jumping from a particular star system are likely to arrive generally in the same area. Mind you, I don't particularly like that way of doing things and don't use it. But I think that's technically the rule.

As I said, if you say that ships can appear anywhere around the planet, this would not be a factor. Nor would it matter if you reasonably had arrivals from a lot of different systems.

I am not trying to reach a particular scenario. I had intended to be outlining the considerations that I feel one should think about to get the outcome you want. If you want outcome A, you probably need conditions X, Y, and Z.

I feel like Mongoose's published materials have a lot of X, Y, and Z that are not matching with a lot of assumptions about how the game plays. Like "We have pirates, but huge active navies". "We have oodles of trade, but crap for infrastructure". But I'm only one person and there's lots of ideas I've not thought of that might explain those things.

I am sorry if I have come across as argumentative. That was not my intent.

 

[Vormaerin]

Mind you, I think that a lot of the discrepancy is legacy material and modern material not matching, either because assumptions about the setting are different or something in the mechanics changed. Mongoose Imperium is a lot more governmental and has a bigger navy...(which started with GURPS, if not earlier) compared to a lot of the early material where the Imperium was a lot feebler and more morally dubious.

So you have legacy elements and game mechanics that clash with, or don't account for, new material. Which is fine. It's gonna be IMTU at everyone's table no matter how detailed and coherent the OTU is. But I like to think about which elements work and which don't with various outcomes.

I'm not trying to say "you can't have piracy". I'm trying to say "If you have piracy, you probably can't have these other things". Or should have these things in place. I don't want piracy (or space trade or whatever else) to work because I just said so and who cares if it makes sense. Because my players are going to want to know how it works, whether they are pirates, naval officers, or merchants. Or just space yachters.

 

[k0k0pelli]

most systems have ships coming in from multiple other systems at unpredictable time intervals and imprecise jump location exit distance. Heck the planets are in orbit around the sun

If, for the sake of argument a system has enough resources to cover every potential ship coming in or out of the system with a sub 10 minute response time then go to another system.

Now the arrival time is variant by 6d6 hours. the earth orbits the sun at 67,000 miles per hour. If you are 1 hour off from the time you intended you will be past distant range for sensors..

Let's presuppose you can lock on a planet instead of the sun. 100D from earth is about 1.2 million km and we can presume that ships are not arriving with pinpoint precision. Distant sensor range is more than 50,000. unless the ships are coming in an extremely small corridor that is a lot of space to cover. Patrols being in the right place at the right time are unlikely, even piracy is a waiting game whether you are attacking incoming or outgoing does not matter.

 

[Vormaerin]

But that same thing is true for the pirate, isn't it? They don't know where there target will arrive? They need an excuse to hang around until something they can handle arrives near them without drawing attention from the patrol. Rousting people for just existing is a top police skill.

 

[Vormaerin]

We are way off the topic of weapons now. But just for reference, here are two quotes from the Mongoose JTAS #3 article on Jump Drive Operations, which is what led to this particular line of questions.

"This service (part prepared jump plots) is often provided free by Class A and B ports but unlikely to be available elsewhere. The port benefits from greater control over exactly where in the system ships jump from and often has an agreement with nearby destinations about emergence points. A ship using a part-prepared plot cannot falsify its destination, which is beneficial for general security and reduction of illicit activity."

&

"The emergence point can also vary. A good one parsec jump will bring the vessel out within 3,000km of the intended emergence point. Variance
increases with jump distance, although the exact relationship is not clear."

 

[Sigtrygg]

As I have posted many times on this site and others - the Third Imperium setting does not stick to the rules as written.

When the setting was changed from a small ship verse to a large ship verse and the IN grew by several orders of magnitude the consequences were ignored.

The Spinward marches were originally a frontier sector, sparsely settled and developed, years away from the Imperial core. This has changed.

The nature of piracy and ship encounters changes from CT77 edition to CT81 edition - check the ship encounter tables.

MgT1e was a homage to CT 1-3, generic, small ship, letter drives. Then they introduced High Guard, began concentrating more on the Third Imperium than on generic rules or different settings. The Third Imperium small ship is a very different universe to The Third Imperium big ship.

MgT2e may as well be called Mongoose MegaTraveller: The Third Imperium - the letter drives are gone, High Guard and big ships verse are all there is (no letter drives), every supplement is for the Third Imperium setting as baseline rather than generic.

My advise? Make your own setting and have things the way you want. This can be based on the Third Imperium or not as you wish.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, that's what I do. I guess people thought I was being argumentative. But my intent was to spark discussion about the different parameters you'd want to consider and what elements go together and which ones don't.

I have my own answers to those questions. Seeing if others had different answers I might like, as well as showing that you can and should be picking and choosing elements to suit what you want is something I like talking through.

 

[Sigtrygg]

My answer to "piracy", or at least one of them:

In the original Library Data the first/lowest tier of Imperial government is the sub-sector Duke.
They are tasked with seeing to the economic well being of the worlds within their sub-sectors, overseeing the deployment of Imperial resources, and ensuring that worlds pay their taxes

Rivalry exists between sub-sector Dukes, they are competing for limited Naval assets, they are trying to encourage megacorp involvement within their sector, and they are constantly striving to exploit the resources the sub-sector offers.
A sub-sector Duke who can encourage the development of a couple of high pop worlds, or a nice mix of industrial, rich and agricultural worlds, will have considerably more influence at the sector level - and may even aspire one day to that lofty position.

How to stop your neighbours doing the same? What if a world just over the sub-sector border offers great trade potential?


Megacorportions are the power behind the throne of the Imperium. They exploit the resources, operate the refineries and factories, transport the goods to market.
They conduct exploration - to find new markets and resources - they conduct research and development - to stay ahead of the competition, they found colonies, buy and sell whole worlds, and pay their taxes...

So what if a rival company is making inroads into your market share? What if a world that used to provide the raw materiels for your factories decides to trade with someone else? What if an upstart transport company starts to undercut your transport monopoly? What if another megacorporation perceives your foothold in a particular region to be weak and ripe for takeover... hostile takeover.


Individual planets are free to govern themselves as they see fit. They are free to build their own naval ships, to subsidise trade, develop their own economies, exploit their own resources...

So what if a rival world has ambitions to claim an uninhabited part of your system, or you want to develop the potential in another worlds system because they lack the resources?

 

[Vormaerin]

Yeah. Tukera-Oberlindes trade war in The Traveller Adventure shows that the old vision of the Imperium tolerates privateering between private organizations as long as it doesn't get too out of hand. Of course, the old version's navy wasn't nearly as strong as what is presented in The Imperial Navy.

As I mentioned in the IMTU thread I started, my vision of the Imperium has the nobility and the megacorps being like hand and glove. Imperial Fiefs are bundles of megacorp stock, not patches of land on a planet. Imperial officials don't run planets. They run starports. This is trade competition, but not the Dune way.

You have to have a corrupt or decrepit Imperium to have piracy inside its borders be a threat people have to take seriously. Sure, here and there a guy might pull of a pirate operation under the current version. But not a threat most people think of as being something that happens in real life rather than in entertainment.

IMHO, the Third Imperium setting (and Traveller as a game even more so) is like soup. There are lots of ingredients that are great in soup. But they don't all go in the same soup. So you just have to decide which ones make sense for the soup you want to make.

 

[Saladman]

MgT1e was a homage to CT 1-3, generic, small ship, letter drives. Then they introduced High Guard, began concentrating more on the Third Imperium than on generic rules or different settings. The Third Imperium small ship is a very different universe to The Third Imperium big ship.

MgT2e may as well be called Mongoose MegaTraveller: The Third Imperium - the letter drives are gone, High Guard and big ships verse are all there is (no letter drives), every supplement is for the Third Imperium setting as baseline rather than generic.

I sort of knew this, but didn't realize the difference was that strong. I learned on Mongoose 1e, and always took the game mechanics side, careers especially, as emblematic of the world rather than separate. Now I've got 2e also, but have never done a deep dive on all the lore and tried to take it as it's own game. That's probably skewed my perception compared to Vormaerin's.

I guess people thought I was being argumentative.

I still do, but that's the pot calling the kettle black. And yet, your other thread is solid gold.

 

[Vormaerin]

I sort of knew this, but didn't realize the difference was that strong. I learned on Mongoose 1e, and always took the game mechanics side, careers especially, as emblematic of the world rather than separate. Now I've got 2e also, but have never done a deep dive on all the lore and tried to take it as it's own game. That's probably skewed my perception compared to Vormaerin's.



I still do, but that's the pot calling the kettle black. And yet, your other thread is solid gold.

I should have taken this conversation to its own thread. I didn't realize soon enough how much other aspects of this thread were coloring what I thought I was saying. That was my bad.

But, yeah, like Sigtrygg, I started playing with Classic Traveller before the 81 edition came out, though he's a lot more of an insider than I am.

Traveller (the game) and The Third Imperium (the setting) are definitely separate in my mind. And there's a lot of changes in how the setting has been presented over time. Maybe when Pioneer comes out it'll create more distinction between rules and setting. But I suspect the legacy of the Third Imperium will be too weighty to shift so easily.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Traveller (the game) and The Third Imperium (the setting) are definitely separate in my mind. And there's a lot of changes in how the setting has been presented over time. Maybe when Pioneer comes out it'll create more distinction between rules and setting. But I suspect the legacy of the Third Imperium will be too weighty to shift so easily.

I agree with your wise words here

I'm looking forward to Pioneer too, but I bet it isn't long before I start thinking - what if this leads to the discovery of stutterwarp? Imagine T2300 in an even harder setting.
Or if the Vilani or Vegans come calling with the secrets of jump drive.

Or if some of the technologies detailed on Isaac Arthur's youtube chanel can be achieved in the long term. Imagine the year 3000AD with humans spread out to the far edges of the solar system and sending solar sail craft to nearby star systems.

 

[AndrewW]

Or if the Vilani or Vegans come calling with the secrets of jump drive.

Or the Vulcans with warp drive.

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall, it was time travellers.

Also, the Vulcans were there to put the brakes on technological development.

 

[Alqualonde]

The question is why would a civilian spacecraft bother being armed, and piracy is a trope Traveller latches onto. And I wouldn't bother cruising the Indo Pacific, plus any Chinese sea, in an unarmed sailboat.

As regards to the Somali equivalent, a hundred years ago the Royal Navy would have wiped them out; I guess you could pay off enough Vargr to try the same with boarding skiffs.

I'm a bit late on this, didn't have enough time to follow the forum lately.
European powers 'tolerated' piracy from Alger, Tunis & Tripoli for around 300 years (1529-1830 for Alger IIRC). cf. Barbary Coast...
Sending navy ships did cost a lot and bombarding the cities didn't stop the pirates (France tried with Alger in 1682 & 1683, the Dey never submitted). Even worse, in 1683, when the Dey was about to surrender, all the pirates went to kill him & shoot at the French Navy. They also tied christian prisonners & slaves to their guns before shooting (Father Jean Le Vacher, Consul of France in Alger, is said to have died that way in 1683)...
It was considered cheaper to pay ransoms & send gifts when the Dey was replaced (on average every 5-6 years), than to bother with a full war...
This could be close to how the Imperium deals with Vargr corsairs : cheaper to patrol a bit, pay ramsoms when needed instead of invading the Vargr Extends and trying to hold the region...
Traveller works a lot like carribean piracy era. No instant communications, in many places no quick help if you are attacked, and the power-that-be are at least weeks away (months for the Third Imperium)... This allow the PC to decide their fate even if they are Navy officers.

Depending on the sector, pirates will be actively hunted when they have too much success (disrupt trade too much), get too bloodthirsty or if it politcally suit an important noble and/or Navy officer (like in the Drinax campaign). Otherwise, the area will be patroled with what is available and deemed adequate (but I don't think the Navy will spend billions to catch pirates that are costing millions).

 

[Vormaerin]

The big difference with the barbary pirates and the carribean is that those places were outside the homeland. You can make the Imperium sufficiently short reached to make internal piracy a meaningful problem (as opposed to a fluke occurrence). It just requires rejigging the published information for the current edition. If you read the published articles on piracy in the Marches and such, it is pretty obvious that Mongoose's vision of the Marches are pretty safe except around the Imperial borders.

 

[AndrewW]

As I recall, it was time travellers.

Also, the Vulcans were there to put the brakes on technological development.

Zefram Cochrane invented it, but the Vulcans detected the warp signature and it got their attention. After that the Vulcans stuck around and rather slowly helped the humans.

 

[Condottiere]

Wearied of the blockade and raids, and now under threat of a continued advance on Tripoli proper and a scheme to restore his deposed older brother Hamet Karamanli as ruler, Yusuf Karamanli signed a treaty ending hostilities on 10 June 1805. Article 2 of the treaty reads:

The Bashaw of Tripoli shall deliver up to the American squadron now off Tripoli, all the Americans in his possession; and all the subjects of the Bashaw of Tripoli now in the power of the United States of America shall be delivered up to him; and as the number of Americans in possession of the Bashaw of Tripoli amounts to three hundred persons, more or less; and the number of Tripolino subjects in the power of the Americans to about, one hundred more or less; The Bashaw of Tripoli shall receive from the United States of America, the sum of sixty thousand dollars, as a payment for the difference between the prisoners herein mentioned.[42]

In agreeing to pay a ransom of $60,000 for the American prisoners, the Jefferson administration drew a distinction between paying tribute and paying ransom. At the time, some argued that buying sailors out of slavery was a fair exchange to end the war. William Eaton, however, remained bitter for the rest of his life about the treaty, feeling that his efforts had been squandered by the American emissary from the United States Department of State, diplomat Tobias Lear. Eaton and others felt that the capture of Derna should have been used as a bargaining chip to obtain the release of all American prisoners without having to pay ransom. Furthermore, Eaton believed the honor of the United States had been compromised when it abandoned Hamet Karamanli after promising to restore him as leader of Tripoli. Eaton's complaints generally went unheard, especially as attention turned to the strained international relations which would ultimately lead to the withdrawal of the United States Navy from the area in 1807 and to the War of 1812.[43]

 

[Condottiere]

I would say that the geopolitical situation changed in the Mediterranean, with the event of the ironclad age, and the opening of the Suez Canal, when the line of communication now ran directly through it to British India.

Gibraltar was meant to bottle up the French Mediterranean fleet in the event of hostilities, and probably prevented most piratical expeditions out of it as a side benefit. As British interests increased in the Mediterranean, they started to collect their string of pearls with naval bases to cover aforesaid line of communications, and eventually extend that to Hong Kong.