Large Scale Fleet Combat

[locarno24]

Quick request for suggestions, thoughts, insults, etc.

Something that I was wondering about is how to do a large-scale fleet engagement in Traveller. Now obviously, where the PCs are one ship amongst several dozen, you can just do it narratively, and only 'fight out' the one or two one-on-one engagements that their own ship gets involved in - then 'cut back out' to the large scale and draw their attention to the fact that the Admiral's flagship is on fire.

The problem is what happens if they actually are the ones in command of a fleet. When you've got - say - 20-30 ships involved, with several capital vessels, and one or more PCs as the officers making the plans, it'd be nice if they can do it properly.


I have a mental image of some variation on the mercenary large scale combat system, with squadrons and or capital ships being thrown around as discrete chunks, and intact/damaged/crippled/destroyed level damage status (i.e. even more abstract than barrages, with some means of translating that into 'proper' damage, so after the battle you can figure out what shape the crippled ship is actually in)

Tactics checks, actions, highly abstract rolls to hit all seem sensible. Morale less so, because naval formations don't exactly break and run in the same way (although I suppose they may be forced to drop out by mounting damage and/or expenditure of ammunition).

the linear support/reserve/front line/front line/reserve/support doesn't seem quite right though. Something more like having the fleets being on two 'wheels' - essentially the two battle planes (they're not battle lines, are they?) facing each other

........................................... Zenith Flank..................................................... Zenith Flank
...................................................... l..................................................................... l
Reserves....-----......Port Flank - Centre - Starboard Flank....-----......Port Flank - Centre - Starboard Flank....-----......Reserves
...................................................... l..................................................................... l
...............................................Nadir Flank.........................................................Nadir Flank

And movement between the various regions - again sort of like Mercenary mass combat.


Dunno. Might be too convoluted, but I think it might be nice if they can see the battle going when they're in command.

 

[alex_greene]

I surmise that a fleet would, while not engaged, remain in formation, each ship no closer than Close to its nearest neighbour, and no further than Medium from any other ships.

When engaging in combat, the fleet would radiate outwards in all directions, individual squadrons remaining in formation but expanding their ranges so that no ship remained closer than Medium, with no maximum range, until they finally engage their enemies.

Wings of squadrons would form into flanking formations - depending on the school of martial philosophy and the size of the fleet, the fleet's commanding officer has three dimensions in which to work, meaning that yes, he could set up Zenith, Nadir, Port and Starboard flanks - as well as a forward strike force of small, fast, offensive ships, preceded by a wave of missiles, intended to cut through the heart of the enemy fleet, and a reserve flank falling behind to provide support with long range, heavy weapons such as meson and particle spinal mounts.

The advantage would therefore go to the fleet with the fastest ships and the higher fleet initiative, enabling their wings to reach the most advantageous positions first and strike from the "high ground," allowing the flanks to concentrate their fire on an enemy flank that was still expanding.

It gets more fun if there's a planet nearby; the slower ships circle the body at closer proximity to the body in order to take advantage of the slingshot effect, allowing them to circle around the planet and stay more or less still in formation. Gas giants' magnetospheres and radiation belts would serve to mask their approach to the enemy sensors and so on.

Does the Sector Fleet book have such things as squadron initiative, wing initiative and fleet initiative? If they didn't exist, we'd have to invent them.

 

[DFW]

From what I've seen, the 1st fleet that looses its largest capital ships 1st (while the other retains some) is going to loose. This is due to one side having spinal mounts remaining. Forget hiding unless it's behind a solid object (pg. 147 MRB).

Probably the best way is, if you know where an enemy fleet is "moored", jump your fleet in and start blasting before they can get everyone to battle stations. A la Pearl Harbor.

 

[phavoc]

From what I've seen, the 1st fleet that looses its largest capital ships 1st (while the other retains some) is going to loose. This is due to one side having spinal mounts remaining. Forget hiding unless it's behind a solid object (pg. 147 MRB).

Probably the best way is, if you know where an enemy fleet is "moored", jump your fleet in and start blasting before they can get everyone to battle stations. A la Pearl Harbor.

Two things preven the Pearl Harbor syndrome - being able to get all of your ships to show up at just about the same time from jump space, and the 100D limit. Though if your opponent had his ships stationed/moored in open space at a space station, you would be able to emerge close enough to engage with weapons.

But anything else I don't see how you can get close enough before his automated defenses come online and his ships have gone to battle station.

 

[DFW]

Two things preven the Pearl Harbor syndrome - being able to get all of your ships to show up at just about the same time from jump space, and the 100D limit. Though if your opponent had his ships stationed/moored in open space at a space station, you would be able to emerge close enough to engage with weapons.

But anything else I don't see how you can get close enough before his automated defenses come online and his ships have gone to battle station.

100D limit of Earth (fairly large planet) is only 1,270,000 km. You enter jump at high velocity with your capital ships. You do a fast flyby decimating their ships (NO time to move or really man ships). You won't get all your ships there in time but enough to do major damage. Your ships continue on at too high a speed to even be chased by missiles and then they jump out. Massacre at the O.K. Navy Base.

Most people forget that you can enter jump with high velocity and direction set relative to the target planet... :wink:

 

[far-trader]

...

Most people forget that you can enter jump with high velocity and direction set relative to the target planet... :wink:

But just how does that work with the random time and position* of jump precipitation? (imo it doesn't, but then I don't believe in the "random" rule myself for MTU).

Not only do your ships come out spread across hours (at best) but also that time variable means you have no way of knowing exactly where to aim your ships and vectors so they are pointed where and when you want that big vector to actually be useful and not a hazard to your own ships.

Nope, with random jump duration and precipitation points* it just won't work.

* not sure if MGT has copied this bit yet or intends to, I'm referring to the CT variable of 1000km (iirc) per parsec travelled variable, as if being unsure just when you'll drop out of jump (which informs where to a huge degree) you get to add another position variable, joy... and I'm not even addressing the issue of relative motion between the systems

 

[DFW]

But just how does that work with the random time and position* of jump precipitation? (imo it doesn't, but then I don't believe in the "random" rule myself for MTU).

Already covered random time (see my post). Random position is for a roll of 7 or less only WITH effect. High skilled Engineers will mitigate.

Not only do your ships come out spread across hours (at best) but also that time variable means you have no way of knowing exactly where to aim your ships and vectors so they are pointed where and when you want that big vector to actually be useful and not a hazard to your own ships.

Nope, with random jump duration and precipitation points* it just won't work.

* not sure if MGT has copied this bit yet or intends to, I'm referring to the CT variable of 1000km (iirc) per parsec travelled variable, as if being unsure just when you'll drop out of jump (which informs where to a huge degree) you get to add another position variable, joy... and I'm not even addressing the issue of relative motion between the systems

With highly skilled engineers the vector and location is fine. See above re: time. Sounds like you are a bit unfamiliar with MGT jump rules though.

 

[far-trader]

...Sounds like you are a bit unfamiliar with MGT jump rules though.

Very

I've been having a hard slog through the only book I have (Core) between finding time and a reason to learn it for lack of opportunity to play it I've skimmed it but only really read maybe a quarter of it if that. Appreciate the patience and nuggets of rules

 

[DFW]

...Sounds like you are a bit unfamiliar with MGT jump rules though.

Very

I've been having a hard slog through the only book I have (Core) between finding time and a reason to learn it for lack of opportunity to play it I've skimmed it but only really read maybe a quarter of it if that. Appreciate the patience and nuggets of rules

No prob. For me this one (MGT MRB) is a harder "read" than the CT or MT rules. Don't know if it is my advancing age or the writing style.

But, jump difficulties aside, how much chaos do you think a large capital ship, or two, could do coming into a navy base with Spinal & Bays blazing away against parked ships?

 

[Treebore]

.
No prob. For me this one (MGT MRB) is a harder "read" than the CT or MT rules. Don't know if it is my advancing age or the writing style.

One of the reasons I like Mongoose T is because I have found it easier to figure out the rules than I do reading back through the Classic and even MegaTraveller Versions, with MegaT being the rules I have used the most over the last 20+ years. The only thing I find easier to understand is my own house rules, but that is expected since they are written to the way I think.

As for Jumping en masse, I have a house rule that allows ships with the same jump power to come back into space with 1d60 minutes of each other. That is one ship becomes the "master" ship, and all ships "slave" themselves to that ship. Meaning they network their jump computers and even their engineering controls to the "master" ship.

I allow this under the premise that doing so minimizes a number of variables to the point where it does enable them to re enter in formation, but most importantly close in time. So really large formations, numbering into the hundreds for massive battles, will have several ships coming out of jump every minute, and into formation.

Since no one knows the realities of jumping in formation I don't worry about how realistic it may be, because no one can say with any real authority that it isn't. I just know that it is likely plausible and something military forces will have worked on until the problem can be solved. A problem that I have solved when TL 17 is achieved in Jump Technology.

So that is my little house rule on the matter. Something that has come into play mainly only on the Spinward Marches/Zhodani Frontier in my games.

To further clarify I do not even have this occur until TL 13. When they first start doing it they only get it down to a 3 hour window, TL 14 gets it down to a 2 hour window, and TL 15, my usual default TL, has it down to 1d60 minutes. TL 16 will have it to 1d30 minutes, and TL 17 is when they will effectively have it solved.

 

[alex_greene]

The problem with all those capital ships riding in, guns blazing, is that space is big, and those ships are going to be very dispersed, even if they are all clustered around a planet. It's like all those stupid SF shows that depict asteroid fields or a system's Kuiper belt as a screen chock full of tumbling rocks, seemingly all within centimetres of each other: in reality you'd be very unlucky to hit one, and as for getting two in the same arc of fire - forget it.

Basically, shooting at another object in space means using those scanners and predictive targeting systems, taking pot shots and hoping for the best.

 

[DFW]

The problem with all those capital ships riding in, guns blazing, is that space is big, and those ships are going to be very dispersed,

Well, the won't be popping in at the same time but, most will be right on target to make hits on the enemy fleet. Which is the point so don't know why you're concerned about dispersal.

 

[alex_greene]

Which is the point so don't know why you're concerned about dispersal.

Because most of the time, people have the image of the fleet all gathered together in one big mass, kind of like the fleets in Star Wars and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine; the same kind of "two dimensional thinking" that leads the inexperienced into imagining space combat as some sort of dogfight like the Battle of Britain, with all of the enemy closing in on vector zero zero zero mark zero, dead ahead, all of them within a rough 45 degree arc to port and starboard of the lead ship of the protagonist's fleet - which itself would adopt a similar fleet configuration.

E E Doc Smith, your sins continue to this day.

Let's say if your fleet's approaching the enemy fleet dead on, that means that they're staring right down the barrels of the enemy fleet's most powerful barrages - missiles, sand, lasers, mesons, particles, spinal mounts. What would any self respecting enemy fleet do, faced with such a choice opponent? Open fire and see how many of you can be taken out ni the first round. The words "fish" and "barrel" apply.

Now instead of that, let's say your forward wing, the shock troops, all have the heaviest forward shielding and devastating rear armaments, or they all begin accelerating and, at the last moment, flip over one eight degrees so they're heading in, shields fully charged, at the enemy. To confuse the enemy, the shock wing's formation is constantly pinwheeling, moving around, presenting no solid structure for the enemy's computers to lock on to. Sending out clouds of chaff rounds ahead of the wing and jamming sensors also do their part. But the enemy can still see the wing coming right down their throats

The enemy spreads out, just like the shockwave wants them to do - then like neutrinos through an incontinent granny, our fleet passes right through the enemy's ranks.

And opens fire on them in passing with spinal mounts and forward armaments, which happen to be pointed in the right direction to take the enemy's weak stern shields and stern barrages.

The eneny fleet then ends up with two sets of enemies, on either side - the first wave, now facing them from the stern, and the main fleet, still closing in and spreading out so that they can bring in their capital ships' main spinal mounts.

Meanwhile, the main fleet's dispersed in all directions, so it's like one big ghostly bowl of ships, so the enemy trying to hit them is like trying to hit a nucleus with a neutrino beam. The enemy's aiming outwards in all directions, while the fleet's focusing their beams and missiles inwards, concentrating their fire.

Like I said, dispersal is key. Knowing when to concentrate or attenuate fire, when to bring a wing of ships close in together and when to spread them out, can make all the difference between victory and defeat.

 

[DFW]

Because most of the time, people have the image of the fleet all gathered together in one big mass, kind of like the fleets in Star Wars and Star Trek:

Ah, I see. You misunderstood my post. I'm not referring to a deployed fleet.

 

[Treebore]

Yeah, he was talking Jumping in and surprising the fleet while still "in port".

As for the Battle of Britain, in WW2 that battle was an air battle, not a sea battle. Britains 700 fighters versus Germanies 1100 fighters and 1200 bombers. The sea side of things only involved Germany bombing the crap out of English shipping. The respective Navies roles were pretty much non existent.

So when I think of space battles I think of the aerial dogfights, preferably during the jet age. From which we can find numerous great examples from the US Vietnam War. 3D imaging and everything!

So from there all you have to do is remove the fact that even these battles have a "floor" (land/water) and a "ceiling" (space), and then you can start seeing what fighting in space will be like.

Now you have me thinking about the Battle of Britain has me thinking of battle scenarios where Traveller equivalents of Radar and the Enigma machines can play a role. Going to have to think on that since I am currently running a game where they are Imperial Navy pilots.

 

[alex_greene]

You have to stop thinking of capital ships as being like sea-based vessels, only capable of very slow movement in a 2D plane while the smaller fighters dogfight like planes.

That's the scene from all the damned Star Wars films, again with a melee of ships, laser fire and screeching engines flying around like jet fighters, and all of them clustered into the screen so the audience can see that there are a lot of ships in the battle.

Trouble is, in space if you cut out the engines of your ship you'll still keep moving in a straight line. Ships only need their engines to accelerate and decelerate. But give a capital ship enough space to move and they can put on one hell of a clip by the time they reach the engagement area. Not only that, they could spin around on thrusters and fire in virtually any direction they wish, bringing their forward barrages to bear on a vessel on the port side as they pass by at speed.

Think of the Starfuries from Babylon 5, capable of pivoting on their axes and firing in any chosen vector.

Now imagine a system defence monitor being able to do the same thing.

 

[DFW]

Yeah, he was talking Jumping in and surprising the fleet while still "in port".

Yep, that's how to do it. You won't get a majority of the ships but enough to cause a lot of damage.

 

[alex_greene]

Surprise is virtually the only way you'll ever get the entire fleet in a non-deployed state where the ships are concentrated enough that a fleet with the initiative can ambush them straight out of Jump.

However, where you do not have surprise and you have a mobilising fleet coming to meet yours it's a little too late to start hitting the space fleet tactics manuals, unless you've already got a few aces up your sleeve, Fleet Commander.

 

[DFW]

Surprise is virtually the only way you'll ever get the entire fleet in a non-deployed state where the ships are concentrated enough that a fleet with the initiative can ambush them straight out of Jump.

Hence my idea.

On that note, fleet port locations would need to be secret.

 

[E.D.Quibell]

100D limit of Earth (fairly large planet) is only 1,270,000 km. You enter jump at high velocity with your capital ships. You do a fast flyby decimating their ships (NO time to move or really man ships). You won't get all your ships there in time but enough to do major damage. Your ships continue on at too high a speed to even be chased by missiles and then they jump out. Massacre at the O.K. Navy Base.

Most people forget that you can enter jump with high velocity and direction set relative to the target planet... :wink:

Planetary Deep Site Meson Guns.

Best regards,

Ewan