Khitai: WHY?

[kintire]

The real wall sections were built around 5th Century BC. Since the Hyborian Age is set 10,000 years before Christ, did you make a connection about the wall and the real world wall?

No they weren't. The "Great Wall of China" has always been a moveable feast, depending on which one you mean. There was a Great Wall (the first one recorded as being built as a single unit) in the 3rd Century BC (Qin Dynasty), but little or nothing of it remains today. There were earlier fortifications of the northern borders of various Chinese states back to the 6th century BC, but their course and extent isn't certain. There followed a succession of similar walls as the Chinese border moved north and south, culminating with the 16th Century (Ming Dynasty) wall which stands today, a good distance south of its Qin forbear's former line. If Hyborian Age khitai had a Great Wall, it fits very neatly into the long history of similar walls built and abandoned over the centuries.

 

[Loz]

Just to share with you my approach to the Great Wall...

The first Khitan GW was supernaturally built in response to barbarian attacks, then later reinforced with dressed stone and watchtowers. It operates along the lines of a huge, 1,000 mile long fortress, under the auspices of a ministry and with an ambasadorial presence. Its been hugely successful in keeping Hyrkania out, but not without incident. Whole communities serve it, and each year the Wall Ambassador presents a 6-day long report to the God Emperor on how the wall fares.

 

[LucaCherstich]

I haven't made any attempt to rationalise Hyborian era stuff with real world stuff. The Great Wall's mentioned, and so it appears in Khitai, and there's a vague explanation, right at the start of the book for why its there (and how it got there)... but I can tell you now that attempting to reconcile Howards mythical world with our own is exceedingly difficult. And yes, of course I know that real Great Wall's history. But I'm not writing a real world history RPG book; this is a Conan book!

For instance, if the events between the books and 'real time' is only 10,000 years, why does the world look so very, very different physically? Plate tectonics just aren't that rapid!

The same is true for any literary property that has a civilisation predating our own. The original authors use the concept for a carriage for their own stories and mythology and don't usually concern themselves with a plausible reconciliation with real world history or geography.

So as I said in my earlier post, I've taken large slabs of Chinese myth and history and fiddled so that it fiits the Conan milieu. Real world historical accuracy has deliberately gone out of the window.

We all must remember that Hyborean Age cannot cope with reality as we perceive it TODAY.
From what I know (at least here in Italy) teachers mentions (just mention!) plate tectonics at elementary schools....but this was not the case in the Early 20th century!
Howard's Hyborean Age reflects so much of the world as it was thought to work by non-specialists (but also by many specialists...) in those times.
Howard surely saw no problem in changing the shapes of whole continents through 2 or 3 "Cataclysms".... something which can be ridicolous today even for a High School student.
The same can be said regarding evolution (the ascending line "apeman - man" then cataclysm and so again "apeman" and then "man") and the same can be said regarding the cultures (e.g. see my post above on Turan).
I think that Howard tried to re-concile his Hyborean Age with Reality although he was obviously conscious of the fictious nature of his tales...
He did it just to have a "believable" background to his stories.
But this background was supposed to be believable in the 1920s and 1930s BUT NOT TODAY.
If we want to create some Howard-like background for countries in the Hyborean Age we must think of something believable in the cultural framework of Early 20th century, not of today.

 

[Loz]

If we want to create some Howard-like background for countries in the Hyborean Age we must think of something believable in the cultural framework of Early 20th century, not of today.

I think you're quite right in this. If you have to have an explanation about how the Great Wall continues from one age to the next, it should reflect Howard's world view at the time. Personally, I don't think you need to do too much, if any rationalising. Its a fantasy sequence with some quite clearly contemporary ideas retrofitted into a mythical setting, and that's all part of its charm. I find that if you start trying to build rational, plausible methodologies for how X still exists in Y, you start to break down that willing suspension of disbelief that the best fantasy stories engender. So, quite often, its best not to think too long or hard about it. If at all!

 

[LucaCherstich]

I agree with you!
"Over"-rationalizations are, at the end, useless stuff if they take out tha flavour from our games...but on the other hand, if we want to discuss rational explanations and links with reality we must use those plausible in REH's cultural background (rapid man-apeman-man-apeman-man evolutions, rapid cataclysms, etc.), which in today's eyes are, too often, irrational....but they are the only one who can give us Howard-like game!
I will read your book on Khitai even if I would prefer a book on Turan...and I'm sure anything on Khitai is not so Howardian....but I hope to find some Howard-like feeling...we will see.

 

[Supplement Four]

Perhaps the next cataclysm destroyed the Khitai Great Wall and left a vapour trial that the later Chinese architects used (it was built in many stages, over a great deal of time and was, for ages, just an earth rampart before Qin ordered it to be joined-up and dressed).

I like this explanation. I was just hoping that the sourcebook would mention this type of thing. Your answers seem to point in a direction that tells me that other types of info are covered.





Loz, what about the Lemurians. Will we find out more about them (or even the race that enslaved the Lemurians, living in the ancient Khitai area) in this sourcebook?

 

[Loz]

Loz, what about the Lemurians. Will we find out more about them (or even the race that enslaved the Lemurians, living in the ancient Khitai area) in this sourcebook?

Not really. That would remove focus from Khitai, although the slave revolt is mentioned.

The Lemurians probably deserve separate coverage.

 

[Supplement Four]

I find that if you start trying to build rational, plausible methodologies for how X still exists in Y, you start to break down that willing suspension of disbelief that the best fantasy stories engender. So, quite often, its best not to think too long or hard about it. If at all!

Not every Howard fan feels that way, though. I love the parallels made in Howard's Hyborian Age essay. He takes steps to show you how the peoples of the Hyborean Age populate real world Europe. How the Brythunians became known as the Brythons, and finally the Britons. And, it doesn't always happen as one would expect.

The Vanir and Cimmerians and Picts end up capturing most of the world. The Picts change little. It's the Vanir, not the Aquilonians, who finally conquer Nemedia.

I think it's all fascinating and leads me to a deeper appreciation of Howard's universe. It does the exact opposite for me than what you say above--it increases my suspension of disbelief knowing that the Stgyians will evolve into the Egyptians one day.

Thinking of the possibilities is quite intriguing. The twists and turns of the Hyborean Age article are very interesting too.

It makes Howard's universe more "real", almost as if you're reading real ancient history--instead of just another make-believe fantasy world.

I was hoping the Khitai book had a little of this in it, because I'd like to be intrigued with the history of the Lemurians and learn more about "that mysterious race" that inhabited the eastern lands after the first cataclysm.

 

[Loz]

Not every Howard fan feels that way, though. I love the parallels made in Howard's Hyborian Age essay. He takes steps to show you how the peoples of the Hyborean Age populate real world Europe. How the Brythunians became known as the Brythons, and finally the Britons. And, it doesn't always happen as one would expect.

Oh, I'm sure you're not alone! I've always enjoyed similar parallels in the Elric saga and seeing how Moorcock works the threads of the Eternal Champion together and how they dovetail with the real world.

There are several problems from an RPG writer's POV though...

First is the rationale for one element, which inevitably has knock-on effects for others - and you just don't have time to work through all the repercussions one connection will have.

Second is that, people have different interpretations of the Canon. If I wrote, for instance, that the Lemurians were really little green men from Mars (I haven't and wouldn't!) because there's some scant evidence to indicate this, it inevitably provokes fan backlash from people who, unlike me, have had the time to read and digest every word Howard wrote, including all the obscure essays and collectors item letters between REH and Lovecraft where he hints that Lemurians are actually little red men from Venus. You can end up on a hiding to nothing... and create more problems than you solve.

Third is time. We work to tight deadlines and have to pick and choose carefully what material goes into the book. Ultimately I have to run with my ideas - I'm not in a position to sit and consider, or work with, every fan's thoughts, opinions or requests. The OP for this forum is a case in point: some don't want a Khitai book at all and would prefer that this was Turan or Hyrkania or somewhere else. My brief says 'Khitai', so that's what I have to work on, and make sure I cover as many bases as I can so that the book satisfies the broad essentials and the core detailed essentials.

The fourth is that anything I write about Lemuria, say, will have to be considered by anyone else who writes a book for Mongoose about Lemuria, thus ensuring continuity and compatibility. If I run with my Little Green Martians theory, that could make real problems for another writer who's given the Lemuria brief. So quite often we have to be deliberately vague to ensure continuity can be easily maintained.

But your thoughts are interesting and I share them to a certain extent.

 

[kintire]

Not every Howard fan feels that way, though. I love the parallels made in Howard's Hyborian Age essay. He takes steps to show you how the peoples of the Hyborean Age populate real world Europe. How the Brythunians became known as the Brythons, and finally the Britons.

I do too, but some suspension of disbelief is necessary, especially in geology.

I was hoping the Khitai book had a little of this in it, because I'd like to be intrigued with the history of the Lemurians and learn more about "that mysterious race" that inhabited the eastern lands after the first cataclysm.

We already have a sourcebook on them!

Far to the east, the Lemurians, levelled almost to a bestial plane themselves by the brutishness of their slavery, have risen and destroyed their masters. They are savages stalking among the ruins of a strange civilization. The survivors of that civilization, who have escaped the fury of their slaves, have come westward. They fall upon that mysterious pre-human kingdom of the south and overthrow it, substituting their own culture, modified by contact with the older one. The newer kingdom is called Stygia,

 

[Solmyr]

Loz, thanks for your posts. I am now very interested in reading the Khitai sourcebook and may even have a visit there for my PCs!

Out of curiosity, how did you treat it geographically? REH mentions "the jungles of Khitai" and Vincent's maps place it entirely in the tropical zone, while the "official" map makes it bigger and puts it more or less over the same latitudes as China.

 

[VincentDarlage]

AND MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, WHAT HAPPENED TO VINCENT DARLAGE?

I am working on my Doctorate in Adult Education right now. Of course, if Mongoose wants any Conan material from me, I am always happy to oblige! (I wrote several of the Conan sourcebooks while working on my MBA.)

We all want Turan!

I have a Turan/Hyrkania book mostly written if Mongoose wants it (I wrote it for my own campaign use). I could finish it - or give it up as notes to whomever ends up writing it. I guess that is up to the powers that be!

NEVERTHELESS, can anybody assure me that Lawrence Whitaker is a good substitute for Vincent Darlage?

I can. Thank you for the kind words, though.

 

[Style]

We already have a sourcebook on them!

Far to the east, the Lemurians, levelled almost to a bestial plane themselves by the brutishness of their slavery, have risen and destroyed their masters. They are savages stalking among the ruins of a strange civilization. The survivors of that civilization, who have escaped the fury of their slaves, have come westward. They fall upon that mysterious pre-human kingdom of the south and overthrow it, substituting their own culture, modified by contact with the older one. The newer kingdom is called Stygia,

Am I reading that wrong? My interpretation was that the Stygians (or rather those who would become Stygians) were the people enslaving the Lemurians. Those who would become Stygians were the masters. The Lemurians were the slaves who rose up to over throw their masters. This caused the former masters to move west and found Stygia.

 

[MGBM]

AND MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, WHAT HAPPENED TO VINCENT DARLAGE?

I am working on my Doctorate in Adult Education right now. Of course, if Mongoose wants any Conan material from me, I am always happy to oblige! (I wrote several of the Conan sourcebooks while working on my MBA.)

Good luck on your Doctorate, Vincent!

However I have to wonder, have you written anything for Mongoose ever since the Player's Guide?

I don't want to demean Lawrence Whitaker, not at all, he is quite a good writer! However you have proved time and again to be one of the best Howard scholars around and Mongoose not using you is making me less than enthusiastic about all this. I do hope Mongoose will reconsider and use your talent again.

 

[Supplement Four]

Am I reading that wrong? My interpretation was that the Stygians (or rather those who would become Stygians) were the people enslaving the Lemurians. Those who would become Stygians were the masters. The Lemurians were the slaves who rose up to over throw their masters. This caused the former masters to move west and found Stygia.

The events happen at different times. The Lemurians are from an island chain in the east. When the first great cataclysm came, and Atlantis sank, so did the Lemurian isles. Those Lemurians that survived went to the continent (where Khitai is) and were enslaved by a mysterious people there.

Later, the Lemurians rose up against their masters and replaced them.

The survivors of the Lemurian ex-masters (a mysterious, un-named race) escape west, across the continent, where they come into contact with a thriving human kingdom in the south. The masters-turned Lemurian slaves become masters again when they over throw the human kingdom they find.

It is this new kingdom, run by the ex-masters of the Lemurians, that becomes Stygia.

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't want to demean Lawrence Whitaker, not at all, he is quite a good writer! However you have proved time and again to be one of the best Howard scholars around and Mongoose not using you is making me less than enthusiastic about all this. I do hope Mongoose will reconsider and use your talent again.

And, I certainly don't mean to demean Loz. But, if Mongoose is looking for some consumer feedback, my impression of Khitai is that it's filled with neat stuff--but maybe not Howard-esque neat stuff.

It's sounding to me as more of a generic fantasy book with a bunch of made-up fantasty stuff in it rather than (what I would prefer to feel) an intriguing book soaking in Howard-esque-ness.

My entire exposure to the book is what I read on this thread, but the author has convinced me to "wait-n-see" on this book instead of buying it out-right, sight-unseen.

I'll wait for the reviews and more insight into what the book contains.

 

[Style]

It is this new kingdom, run by the ex-masters of the Lemurians, that becomes Stygia.

Right. My point is that the Stygia book is not a Lemurian source book, like Kintire said. It's not even a Descendants of Lemurians source book.

 

[Strom]

AND MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE, WHAT HAPPENED TO VINCENT DARLAGE?

I am working on my Doctorate in Adult Education right now. Of course, if Mongoose wants any Conan material from me, I am always happy to oblige! (I wrote several of the Conan sourcebooks while working on my MBA.)

We all want Turan!

I have a Turan/Hyrkania book mostly written if Mongoose wants it (I wrote it for my own campaign use). I could finish it - or give it up as notes to whomever ends up writing it. I guess that is up to the powers that be!

NEVERTHELESS, can anybody assure me that Lawrence Whitaker is a good substitute for Vincent Darlage?

I can. Thank you for the kind words, though.

Hey Vincent - great to hear from you! Glad you are doing well. All the best on the Masters. Wondered where you had gone. Hopefully we can get that Turan book someday. Seeya!

 

[Loz]

And, I certainly don't mean to demean Loz. But, if Mongoose is looking for some consumer feedback, my impression of Khitai is that it's filled with neat stuff--but maybe not Howard-esque neat stuff.

It's sounding to me as more of a generic fantasy book with a bunch of made-up fantasty stuff in it rather than (what I would prefer to feel) an intriguing book soaking in Howard-esque-ness.

My entire exposure to the book is what I read on this thread, but the author has convinced me to "wait-n-see" on this book instead of buying it out-right, sight-unseen.

I'll wait for the reviews and more insight into what the book contains.

I don't feel demeaned in any way. :lol:

The only other thing I can say about Khitai - and in fact any sourcebook I write, for whichever Mongoose line - is that I make every attempt to capture, contain and reflect the feel of the source material. So I've tried to retain the Howardiness in Khitai but, you're right in that its got a lot of made-up stuff in it because there just simply isn't the canon out there on Khitai to fill 128 pages without making stuff up. Whether that makes it more of a generic fantasy book or not I wouldn't like to say. Hopefully it will fill a niche comfortably in the Conan line and, even if it doesn't soak in Howard-esque-ness, it has enough of it to convince.

We shall see.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Right. My point is that the Stygia book is not a Lemurian source book, like Kintire said. It's not even a Descendants of Lemurians source book.

Right. As "The Hyborian Age" states: "Now the Lemurians enter history again as Hyrkanians."

Therefore, even a Descendants of Lemurians sourcebook has not been published, much less a Lemurian sourcebook.