Khitai: WHY?
- Thread starter LucaCherstich
- Start date
librarycharlie
Mongoose
The differences between Corinthia and Brythunia, or between Shem and Turan pale between the vast cultural, economic, and social differences between the western kingdoms and the east.
In Khitai's favor:
Covers nearly a fifth of the world
Has more setting-specific items, customs, skills, etc. than any other place
Opens whole new campaigns beyond Hyboria
Contains many secrets for scholars
Nearly half our 9-month campaign took place in this strange and alien kingdom, and as a GM, I poached 90% of my ideas from Legend of the Five Rings (not a bad idea in any case). The western-minded adventurers (who had been crucified in Hyperborea, sunk off Zingara, and nearly-eaten in Stygia) found the change of pace in Khitai to be a tremendously exciting place to wander.
Everyone keeps saying Turan, and that's where a lot of our campaign took place, but Turan's fairly well explained already if you extrapolate from the Aghrapur article from S&P and Howard's own writings. Khitai, on the other hand, is something new and different, which GMs and players need to have illustrated because the information is simply not available elsewhere.
Cheers to Mongoose for breaking the mold and giving us something new and original.
In Khitai's favor:
Covers nearly a fifth of the world
Has more setting-specific items, customs, skills, etc. than any other place
Opens whole new campaigns beyond Hyboria
Contains many secrets for scholars
Nearly half our 9-month campaign took place in this strange and alien kingdom, and as a GM, I poached 90% of my ideas from Legend of the Five Rings (not a bad idea in any case). The western-minded adventurers (who had been crucified in Hyperborea, sunk off Zingara, and nearly-eaten in Stygia) found the change of pace in Khitai to be a tremendously exciting place to wander.
Everyone keeps saying Turan, and that's where a lot of our campaign took place, but Turan's fairly well explained already if you extrapolate from the Aghrapur article from S&P and Howard's own writings. Khitai, on the other hand, is something new and different, which GMs and players need to have illustrated because the information is simply not available elsewhere.
Cheers to Mongoose for breaking the mold and giving us something new and original.
serene_muse said:
First part probably wrong - Loz is a staff writer so he won't have time to take a leak let alone have a spare manuscript waiting. :wink:
That said, he knows the oriental background pretty well so he is a natural choice for the job.
Second part probably right. Faux China is definitely 'in' right now.
The link to Turan is wrong though. The pressure westwards comes from the Hyrkanians. They are the growing power, very much along the lines of the Mongols. That's why I always thought Hyrkania and Turan would make a great sourcebook, although to be fair Turan deserves its own without any add-ons.
serene_muse
Mongoose
Ah, I didn't make the staff writer or Unknown East connection. The latter is a good sign, as I liked Unknown East. 8)
I think perhaps that we see Turanians differently. They seem to me to be "just" a "more civilized" (these are loose terms) Hyrkanian tribe. One (significant) tribe of many. I could see either:
What is the Great Wall of Khitai built against? (serious question) I'm guessing that various tribes, Hyrkanian and more (since it extends NW) crash against it, most decide to bugger off in other directions. A good direction would be westward, and like a domino chain, tribes hit other tribes that go on to hit other tribes. The migrations of the various real world Steppe tribes and confederations come to mind, from the Scythians or the Xiongnu, to the Turks. Even if indirect, China usually had influence on them.
tl;dr But who spurs Hyrkanians? :twisted:
Old Bear said:
I think perhaps that we see Turanians differently. They seem to me to be "just" a "more civilized" (these are loose terms) Hyrkanian tribe. One (significant) tribe of many. I could see either:
- a single overview sourcebook (with possible more focused supplements) covering both Turan and Hrykania
- a Turanian one for the more civilized types and another for Hyrkanian and other tribes (even if they're not named in the stories there's likely plenty of room for them to plausibly exist; esp. if in a separate book from Turan)
What is the Great Wall of Khitai built against? (serious question) I'm guessing that various tribes, Hyrkanian and more (since it extends NW) crash against it, most decide to bugger off in other directions. A good direction would be westward, and like a domino chain, tribes hit other tribes that go on to hit other tribes. The migrations of the various real world Steppe tribes and confederations come to mind, from the Scythians or the Xiongnu, to the Turks. Even if indirect, China usually had influence on them.
tl;dr But who spurs Hyrkanians? :twisted:
serene_muse said:Ah, I didn't make the staff writer or Unknown East connection. The latter is a good sign, as I liked Unknown East. 8)
Old Bear said:
I think perhaps that we see Turanians differently. They seem to me to be "just" a "more civilized" (these are loose terms) Hyrkanian tribe. One (significant) tribe of many. I could see either:
This thread has got me wanting to reread some of the stories, which is not a bad thing!
- a single overview sourcebook (with possible more focused supplements) covering both Turan and Hrykania
- a Turanian one for the more civilized types and another for Hyrkanian and other tribes (even if they're not named in the stories there's likely plenty of room for them to plausibly exist; esp. if in a separate book from Turan)
What is the Great Wall of Khitai built against? (serious question) I'm guessing that various tribes, Hyrkanian and more (since it extends NW) crash against it, most decide to bugger off in other directions. A good direction would be westward, and like a domino chain, tribes hit other tribes that go on to hit other tribes. The migrations of the various real world Steppe tribes and confederations come to mind, from the Scythians or the Xiongnu, to the Turks. Even if indirect, China usually had influence on them.
tl;dr But who spurs Hyrkanians? :twisted:
I presume the Great Wall was built to stop the nomad hordes to the west. Turan is way bigger than just a significant Hyrkanian tribe. Certainly their roots are Hyrkanian, but they are a massive military power by Conan's time and on the rise under Yezdigerd. Thier prime importance within the game though comes from the number of stories set in and around Turan. With that 'Arabian Nights' feel it's a great area to game in, and for characters to get to Khitai (which is in itself highly unlikely) they most likely have to go through Turan and Hyrkania...
librarycharlie
Mongoose
Solmyr said:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/home/series.php?qsSeries=13
Issue 32.
As a bonus, here's a photoshopped version of the city map on which I added a few campaign-specific details and some translations of the unfamiliar terms in the original map key (such as "Siyah Istihkam," which is an ancient fortress).
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2053/1572401335_a6fb2e7753_o.jpg
In our campaign, some NPC released a Pictish "Bag of Demons" during the middle of the day in Aghrapur, killing 9/10 of the population and a nearby sorcerer used an Acheronian artifact as a battery along with the Opportunistic Sacrifice feat to gain hundreds of thousands of power points, which he used to power a colossal "Animate Statue" spell, which (using the Rule of Success) he cast twice, operating the stone behemoth for a mere 1PP per round, allowing him to keep the thing running all the way to Khitai.
Thusly, my adventurers followed him into Khitai.
True story.
Solmyr said:
Don't forget you can find all the Conan RPG S&P articles indexed here:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=20177
Plus, it's sticked at the top of this forum. Rock & roll! 8)
LucaCherstich
Mongoose
I definitevely agree that Turan is not JUST another Hyrkanian tribe...and definitely Turanians are not just "faux horse-nomads", even if they have nomad roots....
Khitai (at least to my tastes) is just a boring choice, how many Oriental-like rpgs we have seen in these years?....my answer is "too many"...
Turan is a kind of Oriental, but it is more Middle-Eastern and, to me, it results (in REH's stories) from a melting pot of possible infleunces.
As far as I remember Howard never put a story in main Turanian cities as Agraphur itself but the stories are filled references to Turan (much more than references to Cimmeria and Khitai...) and sometimes there are even a few Turanians (see "Peoples of the Black Circles"; "The Devil in Iron" ; "The slithering shadow"; just to not speak of the essay "the Hyborean Age") .
If one looks at the words REH deliberatively uses to describe Turanians and Turanian culture (e.g. "Khan", "Shah", "Satrapy", etc...) it is clear that he certainly mixes Mongolian, Persian and Ottoman-Turkish influences.
Even the "horse-nomad" origins are interesting, especially because scholars (especially those of REH's times in the early 20th century) tend to link those people's origins with central Asia and horse-nomads.
Even the word "Turan" is interesting.
It is an old Persian word from the Avesta but in the early 20th century (Howard's cultural background!) it was believe to be the mythical origin of many central-Asian culture.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan
Therefore REH's mix of so many middle-eastern cultures from Persians to Turks is more than understandable is this sense.
Turan's description can be filled with readings regarding Ottomans, Persians, Tartars, etc... (e.g. the recent novel "My name is Red" by Orhan Pamuk which is a good window on Ottoman culture in the late 1500s).
In this sense Turan WOULD HAVE BEEN A MUCH NEWER AND INTERESTING CHOICE than another boring book on faux, pseudo-China which was never described by Howard.
On the other hand, not only REH mentions quite often Turanians but one can still write a sourcebook on Turan reconstructing the possible origins of the idea of Turan in Howard's mind and culture (see above) and using the informations we have on Ottomans, Persians, Tartars, etc...
Loz
Mongoose
Hello all!
Interesting debate.
I'm finishing Khitai right now and here's what I can tell you.
Yep, its grounded in Chinese myth, with some REHish twists. Howard liked his real-world analogues and from what I've read about Khitai that's precisely what needs to go into this book, so I've plundered and perverted Chinese mythology to create the content, plus thrown-in my own thoughts and creations.
Second, I've worked with Vincent on some of the background. Vincent was very kind to let me have his notes on Khitai, some of which hasn't been published, and thus there's his presence in the material. I'm certainly not the Conan authority Vincent is, but I know the stories, know some stuff about the ancient orient and can run with a book like this.
There is NO martial arts treatment in there. I wanted to get away from the wuxia craze and keep this strictly Conanesque. There's lots of background on Khitai's regions, its history, the Great Wall (there to keep the Hyrkanians out, and Khitans in: they don't like the barbarian west) plus a fair amount on the religions, which revolve around the balance of heaven and the underworld.
Is it a desirable or essential book? That's for you to judge. I've enjoyed writing it and hope it does justice to the (admittedly scant) source material and Vincent's own concepts from RttRoK. Its certainly a great place for adventure and I hope my treatment of it reflects that aim.
I also wrote Cimmeria, too, and took a similar approach with little or no background material. If you apply a bit of imagination you can gain a lot from the little detailed areas. Regions where lots of canon has been written, like Aquilonia, tend to be quite difficult. Not only do you have to cross-reference all the canonical references, you have to ensure consistency - and from my experience of working with both Conan and Elric, there are inevitably discrepancies that have to be reconciled somehow.
So I think Khitai's a worthwhile book. Whether its as important or high-up the Must Have Now list as Turan or other regions, well, I don't know. Seems to me that any book detailing any name place is a plus, but that's a personal POV.
Loz
Interesting debate.
I'm finishing Khitai right now and here's what I can tell you.
Yep, its grounded in Chinese myth, with some REHish twists. Howard liked his real-world analogues and from what I've read about Khitai that's precisely what needs to go into this book, so I've plundered and perverted Chinese mythology to create the content, plus thrown-in my own thoughts and creations.
Second, I've worked with Vincent on some of the background. Vincent was very kind to let me have his notes on Khitai, some of which hasn't been published, and thus there's his presence in the material. I'm certainly not the Conan authority Vincent is, but I know the stories, know some stuff about the ancient orient and can run with a book like this.
There is NO martial arts treatment in there. I wanted to get away from the wuxia craze and keep this strictly Conanesque. There's lots of background on Khitai's regions, its history, the Great Wall (there to keep the Hyrkanians out, and Khitans in: they don't like the barbarian west) plus a fair amount on the religions, which revolve around the balance of heaven and the underworld.
Is it a desirable or essential book? That's for you to judge. I've enjoyed writing it and hope it does justice to the (admittedly scant) source material and Vincent's own concepts from RttRoK. Its certainly a great place for adventure and I hope my treatment of it reflects that aim.
I also wrote Cimmeria, too, and took a similar approach with little or no background material. If you apply a bit of imagination you can gain a lot from the little detailed areas. Regions where lots of canon has been written, like Aquilonia, tend to be quite difficult. Not only do you have to cross-reference all the canonical references, you have to ensure consistency - and from my experience of working with both Conan and Elric, there are inevitably discrepancies that have to be reconciled somehow.
So I think Khitai's a worthwhile book. Whether its as important or high-up the Must Have Now list as Turan or other regions, well, I don't know. Seems to me that any book detailing any name place is a plus, but that's a personal POV.
Loz
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Loz said:
The real wall sections were built around 5th Century BC. Since the Hyborian Age is set 10,000 years before Christ, did you make a connection about the wall and the real world wall?
Howard was fond of his real world connections, as you note, and I'm curious if your wall and the real wall are explained and make "sense" (as much as any of the Howard Hyborian Age history makes sense)?
WeakAsAKhitan
Mongoose
The "Khitai" front cover and blurb are on display in another thread.
Loz
Mongoose
I haven't made any attempt to rationalise Hyborian era stuff with real world stuff. The Great Wall's mentioned, and so it appears in Khitai, and there's a vague explanation, right at the start of the book for why its there (and how it got there)... but I can tell you now that attempting to reconcile Howards mythical world with our own is exceedingly difficult. And yes, of course I know that real Great Wall's history. But I'm not writing a real world history RPG book; this is a Conan book!
For instance, if the events between the books and 'real time' is only 10,000 years, why does the world look so very, very different physically? Plate tectonics just aren't that rapid!
The same is true for any literary property that has a civilisation predating our own. The original authors use the concept for a carriage for their own stories and mythology and don't usually concern themselves with a plausible reconciliation with real world history or geography.
So as I said in my earlier post, I've taken large slabs of Chinese myth and history and fiddled so that it fits the Conan milieu. Real world historical accuracy has deliberately gone out of the window.
For instance, if the events between the books and 'real time' is only 10,000 years, why does the world look so very, very different physically? Plate tectonics just aren't that rapid!
The same is true for any literary property that has a civilisation predating our own. The original authors use the concept for a carriage for their own stories and mythology and don't usually concern themselves with a plausible reconciliation with real world history or geography.
So as I said in my earlier post, I've taken large slabs of Chinese myth and history and fiddled so that it fits the Conan milieu. Real world historical accuracy has deliberately gone out of the window.
WeakAsAKhitan
Mongoose
I think there most definately is room for this sourcebook. The other East Asian flavoured RPGs on the market offer about as much satisfaction as a take-away meal. Both L5R and Qin are interesting, but are largely unsupported with any adventure scenario material, and are frankly a bit tame. And neither offer a game from the outlander's point of view. I for one relish the idea of a properly Conanised East to trample through.
Supplement Four
Mongoose
Loz said:
Just curious. Howard does go on, at length, in his Hyborian Age essay, about how the Hyborian Age came to be and how it will end, pre-dating the modern world peoples of various areas.
So, Howard definitely had strong ideas about how the Hyborean Age "fit" with real world history...which is why I asked about the Wall.
I think its very interesting that the wall is included, but, with such a structure still standing today, I'd also want an explanation connecting the fantasy Wall with the real life Wall (as Howard would have done--probably not in the story, but in an essay like the Hyborean Age).
There's a second cataclysm or "event" that happens. Howard's Hyborean Age article makes that very clear. The continents shift. The sea floods major land masses. The Hyboreans drown. And, other land masses rise from the depths of the sea so that the world looks like it does today.
Man is all but sent back into the stone age (and worse) in most areas.
I will note, though, that Howard states that the far east weathers this second cataclysm quite well--better than any other culture on earth.
Plus, the Lemurians, when their eastern islands sank during the first cataclysm, were enslaved by an ancient race living where Khitai will be. Eventually, the Lemurians overcome their slave masters and become the fore-fathers of the Khitai.
Is this type of stuff (straight from Howard) mentioned in the sourcebook?
Loz
Mongoose
Is this type of stuff (straight from Howard) mentioned in the sourcebook?
Yes it is.
Its the eternal dilemma is anyone writing a fantasy sourcebook that has a clear path through to the contemporary period: how much, and how far, do you rationalise the fantasy and the real world? In Khitai's case, I'm writing about REH's Khitai, not China. Of course there's a historical trail for how the Great Wall came about, but from a fantasy perspective its a brilliant device for dividing insular Khitai from the west. I really don't think that explanations need to go beyond that.
Perhaps the next cataclysm destroyed the Khitai Great Wall and left a vapour trial that the later Chinese architects used (it was built in many stages, over a great deal of time and was, for ages, just an earth rampart before Qin ordered it to be joined-up and dressed). Perhaps there's another explanation. Make one up!
Yes it is.
Its the eternal dilemma is anyone writing a fantasy sourcebook that has a clear path through to the contemporary period: how much, and how far, do you rationalise the fantasy and the real world? In Khitai's case, I'm writing about REH's Khitai, not China. Of course there's a historical trail for how the Great Wall came about, but from a fantasy perspective its a brilliant device for dividing insular Khitai from the west. I really don't think that explanations need to go beyond that.
Perhaps the next cataclysm destroyed the Khitai Great Wall and left a vapour trial that the later Chinese architects used (it was built in many stages, over a great deal of time and was, for ages, just an earth rampart before Qin ordered it to be joined-up and dressed). Perhaps there's another explanation. Make one up!
